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Why Not Stick With The Original Melody? Huh?

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How is it not in comparison?  Taking a pagan holiday and making it Christian.  Taking secular music and making it Christian.  Our hymns don't sound like the music of Biblical times.  It sounds like music from that century which probably sounded similar to secular music of that time.  Hear for yourself.  http://bobb-cypressgrovebluescom.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-did-songs-of-bible-originally.html Take today's English language.  No one says "thee", "thou" and "thy" anymore.  Should I speak that way in every day conversation as to make myself look different to the world?  What is new age about a conscience?  God gave us a conscience and common sense.  

 

Think of it like a gym full of high school students where several cliques are associating in different areas. Say there are two groups who consider themselves Christians. Both want to grow and win people to their group. On group says, "hey, lets all break up and go to each group and blend in. Maybe we can get some people to leave the group and come back with us." In a perhaps genuine effort to bring people into their group, they've merely assimilated into a different, non-Christian group. The second Christian group says, "hey, we know that what we're doing is right, but we need everyone else to know. Let's go stand in the middle of the gymn and let them see what we're all about." Everyone else sees how this group is different and their qualities and personality are clearly on display. Some scoff...some dismiss...but some decide what they've got is worth having and go join the group in the middle. That's the difference we're talking about here. Christmas was an put on a pagan holiday to be different and attempt draw people away from unbelief (not necessarily arguing how effective it was, just the intent). CCM is trying to be like everyone else so people can see that they're not that different.

 

 

 When I referred to "all things work together to those that love the Lord" I was implying that if He can take what was originally a pagan holiday such as Christmas and turn it into a Christian holiday, why can't He then take music CCM and do the same?  He also created music.  Music is not what is bad..it's how we use it to glorify God just like anything else in life.  A lot of these conversations regarding CCM sound legalistic to me.  What we can and can't do.  Don't listen to this...don't watch this...don't wear pants, etc.  1 Cor 6:12 "All things are permissible unless God says "no" but not all things are beneficial".  If your convictions are not to listen to CCM then don't if it stirs up your old nature.  Those are not my convictions but if we were friends and were driving in my car I would not play it on the radio because of a tender conscience and cause my brother to fall into something he thinks is wrong.  My convictions come from the Holy Spirit not from this forum. 

 

Again, God doesn't use actions contrary to His Word or nature, he rebukes them. This line of thought leads produces some strange assertions. I once had a girl try to convince me that God used her abortion for the good that unborn child and for the good of her current daughter because she wouldn't have been a good mother at that time in her life. We have to be honest about Christmas and admit that it is an entirely man-made holiday that rarely actually focuses on God outside of church building. Rather than a steady evangelistic tool that draw people to God, it is a host of distractions. Don't get me wrong, I love Christmas and I enjoy celebrating my Savior's birth as I'm sure a great many people do. However, on the whole it is an overly materialistic and worldly event.

 

With regard to 1 Cor 6:12, the larger context is more about causing others to stumble rather than it is falling into temptation yourself. Additionally, it focuses more on the negative than the positive; it is better to err on the side of not doing something for the sake of your testimony than using our Christian liberty to satisfy our flesh. The people of Corinth were having a problem separating themselves from the surrounding pagan cultural practice and it was causing a huge problem in the church. It is such a great parallel to what is going on in America today. Christians are getting bogged down by trying to participate in the ungodly parts/practices of the secular world and are doing more to bring down the body of Christ than they are to elevate it. The thing about CCM here is that it is inherently worldly and self-aggrandizing. The point about not promoting it is more about giving unbelievers and newer, less mature Christians an accurate and consistent picture of God and the Gospel so that they can focus on becoming more like Christ rather than holding onto a piece of their old life (e.g. the style of music they used to like).

 

 

 

On another note, thank you for your reply.  I am very straight forward in the way I speak and if I sounded harsh, I apologize in advance.

 

No worries, I've been accused of the very same. I mean only to lovingly exhort and edify.

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What are sinful practices?  Going to a football game?  The world does that.  Engaging in celebrations?  The world does that. I could go on but my point is when we are chosen, called out or "not to be conformed to this world" means we are not to think about God with the philosophies of the unsaved world views.  The renewing of our minds comes from the Holy Spirit which the unsaved world does not have in them.  When we got saved we changed our mind about sin.  The sin we changed our mind about is that fact that we needed a savior which the world doesn't understand because they do not recognize their sin or the necessity of needing to be saved.  It's not about dos and don'ts.  That was the old law which was for the Jews and didn't work so Christ had to fulfill the law because we couldn't.  With that said, I believe my mind is renewed.  Am I perfect?  Of course not!  Let's agree to disagree that we have a different perspective on what it means to be separate from the world.  I don't want to live like the Amish. 

That's the problem today. We keep blurring the lines between what's sin and what's not until things which used to convict people, no longer do. Rock music was born out of anarchy, rebellion, and lust. But God's people have gradually adopted what only the hippies, the bars, and the rock concerts revelled in,in times past until we no longer see what's wrong with it. Thinks people once sneaked around to do, are now out in the open. And now? Seeing things like two men waling down the street holdin hands once SHOCKED people but it will become so commonplace that the shock will gradually diminish until it's no biog deal anymore.. Mark my words. Ma'am. I've been to rock concerts, and this type of music, is the same basic style...it appeals to the flesh.

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What are sinful practices?  Going to a football game?  The world does that.  Engaging in celebrations?  The world does that. I could go on but my point is when we are chosen, called out or "not to be conformed to this world" means we are not to think about God with the philosophies of the unsaved world views.  The renewing of our minds comes from the Holy Spirit which the unsaved world does not have in them.  When we got saved we changed our mind about sin.  The sin we changed our mind about is that fact that we needed a savior which the world doesn't understand because they do not recognize their sin or the necessity of needing to be saved.  It's not about dos and don'ts.  That was the old law which was for the Jews and didn't work so Christ had to fulfill the law because we couldn't.  With that said, I believe my mind is renewed.  Am I perfect?  Of course not!  Let's agree to disagree that we have a different perspective on what it means to be separate from the world.  I don't want to live like the Amish.  

 

I disagree somewhat on a couple points here. The first part of that command to "be not conformed" is that we are to "present [our] bodies a living sacrifice". That is, living a life that is holy and separated unto God and in His service. Christians are to be distinctly different and set apart by God which is why we're not to be conformed the the world (see also 2 Cor 6:17). Second, the renewing of the mind is enabled by the Holy Spirit, but it is done through the Word of God. Be careful casting off the OT Law so lightly. Yes, we do not live under the Law and are not bound by it. However, within it is the mind of God on a great many things. This is the principle behind what 2 Timothy 3:16-17 which, referencing the OT in particular, is Paul telling Timothy that ALL Scripture is good for doctrine (teaching what's right), reproof (showing you what's wrong), correction (showing how to get right) and instruction in righteousness (showing how to stay right). The idea of a renewed mind is a continual and lifelong thing. It goes beyond repentence (changing your mind about sin) and is about putting your mind on the things that please God and not the things that please self.

 

As we mature as Christians, we are supposed to continually grow more like Christ and less like the sinful world. In no way should this be taking to mean living like the Amish and withdrawing from the world. We're supposed to be a light to the world (Phil 2:14-15) and a preservative salt (Matt 5:13). We can't win people to Christ without being IN the world but nor can we do it by being OF the world.

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What are sinful practices?  Going to a football game?  The world does that.  Engaging in celebrations?  The world does that. The "world" breathes, eats, sleeps, and works, also. I could go on but my point is when we are chosen, called out or "not to be conformed to this world" means we are not to think about God with the philosophies of the unsaved world views.  Well, yes - because the thought is the father to the deed. If we think it, we will do it. The renewing of our minds comes from the Holy Spirit No. Renewing of our mind comes from saturating ourselves with God's Word, from which the Holy Spirit teaches us truth which the unsaved world does not have in them.  When we got saved we changed our mind about sin.  The sin we changed our mind about is that fact that we needed a savior which the world doesn't understand because they do not recognize their sin or the necessity of needing to be saved.  It's not about dos and don'ts.  That was the old law which was for the Jews and didn't work so Christ had to fulfill the law because we couldn't.  With that said, I believe my mind is renewed.  Am I perfect?  Of course not!  Let's agree to disagree that we have a different perspective on what it means to be separate from the world.  I don't want to live like the Amish.  

Well, we can agree to disagree that we have a different perspective on separation, but if you're going to post your thoughts on a forum, other people will post theirs. :wink  That's the way a discussion board works, and, in truth, the Bible tells us that is one way to sharpen our beliefs (as iron sharpeneth iron).  

 

No-one on here asked you or anyone else to live like the Amish - they aren't scriptural in much of what they do, least of all salvation, so there would be no way we would encourage anyone to live like them.  And no-one has ever accused anyone on here of being perfect.  :coverlaugh:

 

I find it interesting that people will often pull out the "we're not under the law anymore" argument to justify whatever it is they want to justify.  But the problem with that is that we ARE under a law: Jesus Christ said "If ye love me, keep my commandments."  So, we are to keep certain things.  For salvation? No, of course not.  Our position as children of God, once saved, is never again in doubt or peril. What are we to keep?

 

Well, the NT is replete with instruction, principle, precept, and command that we are to obey.  Why?  Because God said so.  He says to us to "come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."  Who is the them?  Simply put - those who serve another god.  God tells us to come out from them, be separate, and He will receive us. He's not talking about sonship here, because He is talking to His children already. He is talking about fellowship.  

 

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

Tradition of men, rudiments of the world, vain deceit...that's what we have when we try to walk a line close to the world and its sinful pleasures.  Yes, our music, our dress, our speech, our very attitudes must reflect Christ or we are not walking in Him.  And if we are not walking in Him, our minds are not renewed, but we are conformed to the world.  When we pattern ourselves after the world, we are not walking in Him.

 

That does not mean that we must put ourselves in a box and never venture out or do anything. But it does mean that we must determine that "whether therefore [we] eat or drink, or whatsoever [we] do, do ALL to the glory of God."  However, just because we SAY we are doing something to God's glory doesn't mean we ARE.  

 

Everything we do must pass scrutiny of scripture. If it doesn't, then it's not biblical, hence not right for a child of God to do.  And that goes to so much more than just agreeing to disagree.  :)

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Think of it like a gym full of high school students where several cliques are associating in different areas. Say there are two groups who consider themselves Christians. Both want to grow and win people to their group. On group says, "hey, lets all break up and go to each group and blend in. Maybe we can get some people to leave the group and come back with us." In a perhaps genuine effort to bring people into their group, they've merely assimilated into a different, non-Christian group. The second Christian group says, "hey, we know that what we're doing is right, but we need everyone else to know. Let's go stand in the middle of the gymn and let them see what we're all about." Everyone else sees how this group is different and their qualities and personality are clearly on display. Some scoff...some dismiss...but some decide what they've got is worth having and go join the group in the middle. That's the difference we're talking about here. Christmas was an put on a pagan holiday to be different and attempt draw people away from unbelief (not necessarily arguing how effective it was, just the intent). CCM is trying to be like everyone else so people can see that they're not that different.

 

 

 

Again, God doesn't use actions contrary to His Word or nature, he rebukes them. This line of thought leads produces some strange assertions. I once had a girl try to convince me that God used her abortion for the good that unborn child and for the good of her current daughter because she wouldn't have been a good mother at that time in her life. We have to be honest about Christmas and admit that it is an entirely man-made holiday that rarely actually focuses on God outside of church building. Rather than a steady evangelistic tool that draw people to God, it is a host of distractions. Don't get me wrong, I love Christmas and I enjoy celebrating my Savior's birth as I'm sure a great many people do. However, on the whole it is an overly materialistic and worldly event.

 

With regard to 1 Cor 6:12, the larger context is more about causing others to stumble rather than it is falling into temptation yourself. Additionally, it focuses more on the negative than the positive; it is better to err on the side of not doing something for the sake of your testimony than using our Christian liberty to satisfy our flesh. The people of Corinth were having a problem separating themselves from the surrounding pagan cultural practice and it was causing a huge problem in the church. It is such a great parallel to what is going on in America today. Christians are getting bogged down by trying to participate in the ungodly parts/practices of the secular world and are doing more to bring down the body of Christ than they are to elevate it. The thing about CCM here is that it is inherently worldly and self-aggrandizing. The point about not promoting it is more about giving unbelievers and newer, less mature Christians an accurate and consistent picture of God and the Gospel so that they can focus on becoming more like Christ rather than holding onto a piece of their old life (e.g. the style of music they used to like).

 

 

 

 

No worries, I've been accused of the very same. I mean only to lovingly exhort and edify.

Maybe our definition of what CCM is or what audience it is trying to attract.  I personally think it's for Christians as a form to use in worship and not a form to try to reach an unsaved world.  And there are different CCM artists...some not as good as others.  So in a way I see your view of some CCM artists trying to fit in with the world.  But let me just share with you my experience.  My daughter and I, who was 16 at the time,  were driving and she wanted to put on the radio.  A secular station.  I changed it to a CCM station.  She listened to the lyrics and said "this makes me want to go to church".  So that's what we did.  We went to church.  After that, driving home, she was compelled to turn on the radio to a secular station again but then was convicted by the worldly lyrics and turned it off.  I still see it as a positive.  Again, we can quote Bible verses but I think it still comes down to one's convictions, spiritual maturity and conscience.  As for other things you mentioned about men walking holding hands.  That still shocks me!  As for the girl and her abortion, she was justifying her actions.  Anyway, I don't believe we will come to a consensus on this matter but respect your point of view and respectfully agree to disagree.  Thank you for being cordial.  

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Well, we can agree to disagree that we have a different perspective on separation, but if you're going to post your thoughts on a forum, other people will post theirs. :wink  That's the way a discussion board works, and, in truth, the Bible tells us that is one way to sharpen our beliefs (as iron sharpeneth iron).  

 

No-one on here asked you or anyone else to live like the Amish - they aren't scriptural in much of what they do, least of all salvation, so there would be no way we would encourage anyone to live like them.  And no-one has ever accused anyone on here of being perfect.  :coverlaugh:

 

I find it interesting that people will often pull out the "we're not under the law anymore" argument to justify whatever it is they want to justify.  But the problem with that is that we ARE under a law: Jesus Christ said "If ye love me, keep my commandments."  So, we are to keep certain things.  For salvation? No, of course not.  Our position as children of God, once saved, is never again in doubt or peril. What are we to keep?

 

Well, the NT is replete with instruction, principle, precept, and command that we are to obey.  Why?  Because God said so.  He says to us to "come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."  Who is the them?  Simply put - those who serve another god.  God tells us to come out from them, be separate, and He will receive us. He's not talking about sonship here, because He is talking to His children already. He is talking about fellowship.  

 

Tradition of men, rudiments of the world, vain deceit...that's what we have when we try to walk a line close to the world and its sinful pleasures.  Yes, our music, our dress, our speech, our very attitudes must reflect Christ or we are not walking in Him.  And if we are not walking in Him, our minds are not renewed, but we are conformed to the world.  When we pattern ourselves after the world, we are not walking in Him.

 

That does not mean that we must put ourselves in a box and never venture out or do anything. But it does mean that we must determine that "whether therefore [we] eat or drink, or whatsoever [we] do, do ALL to the glory of God."  However, just because we SAY we are doing something to God's glory doesn't mean we ARE.  

 

Everything we do must pass scrutiny of scripture. If it doesn't, then it's not biblical, hence not right for a child of God to do.  And that goes to so much more than just agreeing to disagree.  :)

I mentioned the Amish because they believe the way they live is being separate from the world.  I didn't assume anyone was telling me to live like one.  Silly.  :-) I believe when I listen to CCM I am doing it in the spirit of glorifying God because of what the lyrics are saying about Him.  It's similar to me pouring my heart out to him in prayer and worship without music.  I worship Him when I put food in my mouth cuz I know it's from Him.  P.s.  I know that if I post my thoughts there would be replies.  I didn't discourage you NOT to reply.  I actually thanked you for it.  Sometimes forums are hard to engage in these types of topics because we can't see the other person's facial expressions or hear the tone in their voice and we don't know each other personally.  I tend to be a little sarcastic...hence the Amish comment but never mean to offend.  I don't think Christians will ever agree on every issue there is under the sun and that is why there is so much division.  No one has all the answers.  I'm actually reading my devotions in 1 Corinthians daily right now.  They were fighting about who is right or wrong on topics and why Paul had to address them.  Although the topic I am referring to is not about CCM but whether or not we should eat meat sacrificed to idols...again addressed to Christians who shouldn't believe in other man made Gods but had tender consciences, nevertheless were still considered Christians as that's who Paul was addressing.  I don't even think that's an issue today cuz no one I know goes to the grocery store and wonders if the meat was sacrificed.  We are to build each other up in love.  So back to the original topic of CCM.  I think some things have been taken out of context so I'm going to end that conversation because we still don't agree and since we should love one another as Christians I am going to refrain from exercising my freedom in Christ.  They didn't even have CCM back then.  God's principles are still the same and it's more than just about the music but our attitude, heart and love for on another.  That's what separates us from the world.

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Maybe our definition of what CCM is or what audience it is trying to attract.  I personally think it's for Christians as a form to use in worship and not a form to try to reach an unsaved world.  And there are different CCM artists...some not as good as others.  So in a way I see your view of some CCM artists trying to fit in with the world.  But let me just share with you my experience.  My daughter and I, who was 16 at the time,  were driving and she wanted to put on the radio.  A secular station.  I changed it to a CCM station.  She listened to the lyrics and said "this makes me want to go to church".  So that's what we did.  We went to church.  After that, driving home, she was compelled to turn on the radio to a secular station again but then was convicted by the worldly lyrics and turned it off.  I still see it as a positive.  Again, we can quote Bible verses but I think it still comes down to one's convictions, spiritual maturity and conscience.  As for other things you mentioned about men walking holding hands.  That still shocks me!  As for the girl and her abortion, she was justifying her actions.  Anyway, I don't believe we will come to a consensus on this matter but respect your point of view and respectfully agree to disagree.  Thank you for being cordial.  

 

I won't at all discount your experience and think that your daughter getting back to church is a great. That's always a positive thing but should be the first step of many. I always caution people though who want to follow only their hearts/conscience or their convictions. Firstly, the heart is decietful and wicked above all else (Jer 17:9) and cannot be trusted to lead down the paths of righteousness. More often than not it leads to what we want personally and not what God wants. Second, people are convicted differently about different things at different times and until one is becoming more spiritually mature and more in tune with God it can be difficult to discern what is truly from the Holy Spirit and what is not. That is why our lives should be guided by Biblical principle and not convictions, feelings, and preference. Those aren't always wrong and we should definitely listen to them, but they must be viewed through the lense of Scripture.

 

We can certainly disagree on what constitutes CCM, but I do think the principle of Biblical separation and spiritual discernment are critical areas because churches and individual Christians struggle greatly with them.

Edited by TheSword

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I won't at all discount your experience and think that your daughter getting back to church is a great. That's always a positive thing but should be the first step of many. I always caution people though who want to follow only their hearts/conscience or their convictions. Firstly, the heart is decietful and wicked above all else (Jer 17:9) and cannot be trusted to lead down the paths of righteousness. More often than not it leads to what we want personally and not what God wants. Second, people are convicted differently about different things at different times and until one is becoming more spiritually mature and more in tune with God it can be difficult to discern what is truly from the Holy Spirit and what is not. That is why our lives should be guided by Biblical principle and not convictions, feelings, and preference. Those aren't always wrong and we should definitely listen to them, but they must be viewed through the lense of Scripture.

 

We can certainly disagree on what constitutes CCM, but I do think the principle of Biblical separation and spiritual discernment are critical areas because churches and individual Christians struggle greatly with them.

Thank you for your reply.  I mentioned conscience and convictions as some of the avenues in which the Holy Spirit leads us as well as scripture.  I don't think I mentioned heart.  I also mentioned common sense.  I'm sorry but I am new to this site and still learning to navigate here so not even sure it was you I replied to earlier.  Sorry.  :-)  I agree about struggling with discernment and separation.  My church says women should wear skirts or dresses.  That's how they interpret dressing modestly.  I disagree.  Did I not understand separation correctly because I disagree?  They are basing this principle on scripture.  When I read scripture separation from what I understand means not to take on the world views...it's not about the way I dress.  Yes I should dress modestly but I can do that wearing women's pants.  The scripture is deeper than that.  It's about not being more concerned about appearance but what kind of heart I have toward God.  Even unsaved women wear dresses to work.  That's not how you can tell if someone is separate. So now two people with the same Holy Spirit disagree and we both went to scripture.  Now what?

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Our Christian Christmas holiday to celebrate the birth of Jesus started as a pagan holiday.  Should we now not celebrate Christmas?  "All things work together for good for those who love the Lord."  Romans 8:28

Actually, we should probably NOT celebrate Christmas because it IS pagan, both in origin as well as a majority of the traditions. It is the spawn not of Christianity but Catholicism, and is, in fact, a clear breaking of the command to separate. "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"

Whart concord, indeed, does Christ have with Belial? But its alright for Christ to have concord with paganism and the wicked Roman Catholic church?

 

And the verse you give is really being wrested out of its meaning and context the way you have twisted it, by implying that anything we do will somehow turn out for good. So my sin will work for good? Then let us continue in sin, shall we?

 

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Below is a little bit of history of how cultures change but God is still in control even in CCM.  We need to get with the current century.

In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. This is because it is not commanded, nor directed in scripture. As for easter, no, true Christians did not celebrate 'Easter', for it, too, is pagan-we celebrated the resurrection, closely associated with the feast of Passover, as it was on the frst day of the week after Passover that Jesus rose from the dead. easter is much older than Christianity and was being celebrated for many centuries, as a spring fewast of fertility.Again, the catholic church followed the pagan traditions, rather than the Bible.  In the fourth century, church (Catholic, not Christian,)officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday (so they could lure in the pagans keeping the feast of Saturnalia). Unfortunately, the Bible does not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration about which they were absolutely correct). Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Most likely it was in the Autumn, when the Passover lambs were born, seeing as Jesus was the Passover Lamb of God who died ON Passover. Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. BINGO!

By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated. By the Middle Ages, Christianity had, for the most part, replaced pagan religion. well, pagan catholicism had replaced Christianity before much of the world, though there were still biblical churches about, persecuted though they were.

An Outlaw Christmas

In the early 17th century, a wave of religious reform changed the way Christmas was celebrated in Europe. When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. By popular demand, Charles II was restored to the throne and, with him, came the return of the popular holiday.

The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all and passed without incident. The Jamestown settlement was an almost totally secular settlement.

After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.A terrible mistake. The puritans were correct not to celebrate it.  Christmas was rightly seen as a Cathoic feast, not a Christian one, and when we consider a major reasn people began settling in America was to escape the persecution of the Catholic church. But see, when we forget history, we fall into repeating it.

 

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At the same time Christmas was banned in the Puritan areas, it was widely celebrated in the Southern States and some of the Middle States. Some considered the banning of Christmas to be a "Calvinist" thing.

 

There is no consensus regarding Christmas just as there is none regarding music. For most today Christmas is a very commercial "holiday" where the world and many Christians just want to get on with the feasting and shopping and getting and giving of presents. At the same time, some Christians now see Christmas as some sort of "sacred battleground" so they try to make Christmas even more Christian than before and use it as a political tool.

 

When it comes to music, I know some sound Christians who listen to some CCM. At the same time I know some Christians who only listen to hymns but their walk with the Lord is lacking. Vice-versa regarding both too.

 

I know of some folks who were saved listening to CCM just as most folks I've known over the years were saved using a Bible other than the KJB.

 

God can use a variety of things and God can bless some things in our lives at different times, then perhaps later lead us away from certain things into something new. We all mature and grow at different rates and times. God deals with each of His people as individuals and while He may be dealing with me regarding patience, he may be dealing with you on anger, another on books, another on music, another on their dress, another about witnessing, etc.

 

A believer can a be a follower of Christ though he listens to CCM, or uses an MV, or watches Duck Dynasty, or attends football games, or goes to the beach, or attends a Methodist, AOG, SBC or IFB church or kissed their spouse before they were married. Any of those areas that's a problem, the Lord will convict them of it in His perfect timing. God's perfect timing probably isn't the same as ours and the order He chooses to deal with individuals problem areas probably isn't the same we would select.

 

We need to be very careful regarding these matters and how we deal with our brothers/sisters in Christ. We shouldn't be condemning them, as some do. We should be leaving plenty of room for the Holy Ghost to work in God's timing.

 

Nothing wrong with telling a brother/sister in Christ our thoughts on the NIV vs the KJB, but we step way out of line if we tell them they can't be saved if they use the NIV or they aren't really following Jesus. Those are areas only the Lord can see and know clearly and He will deal with His servants on these matters in His perfect timing.

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I am not totally convinced that one can be saved, or even follow Christ, using a MV.

Many MV's portray Christ as a liar. (John 7:8-10) Can a lying Christ save? Does a lying Christ cleanse from all unrighteousness?

Many remove the virgin birth. Some remove the cross.

Jesus warned about false Christ's, as did John also. One cannot come to God throught a false christ. Jesus is the way. (John 14:6)

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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I am not totally convinced that one can be saved, or even follow Christ, using a MV.

Many MV's portray Christ as a liar. (John 7:8-10) Can a lying Christ save? Does a lying Christ cleanse from all unrighteousness?

Many remove the virgin birth. Some remove the cross.

Jesus warned about false Christ's, as did John also. One cannot come to God throught a false christ. Jesus is the way. (John 14:6)

How many folks, prior to salvation, have really read and studied through any Bible enough to have much of an accurate understanding of what their Bible is saying anyway? Most folks who come to salvation have very little understanding of what any Bible says.

 

Most Christians I know of were saved before they ever used a KJB or before they started using a KJB.

 

I was saved just after turning 18 and the only Bible I had ever read any of prior to that was an RSV. The man who introduced me to a great Baptist pastor, and helped disciple me, was born again reading The Living Bible.

 

Even today I know many Christians who I have no doubt at all they are saved and following Christ, who yet use MVs. How they manage such a close walk with the Lord using MVs, I don't know, I know I couldn't, but the Lord is amazing in what He can use and how He can use it.

 

Don't forget all those who were saved and followed Christ before the KJB, who often didn't have any form of Bible at all. Still today, around the globe many are saved and follow Christ without a KJB.

 

I know for myself, I tried various MVs in my early years after salvation and I only experienced minimal growth in the Lord. Then one day, very clearly, the Lord led me to pick up a KJB and use that only. That led to dramatic and quick growth in the Lord. That's how the Lord worked things in my life, so that's just my personal example.

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I am not totally convinced that one can be saved, or even follow Christ, using a MV.

Many MV's portray Christ as a liar. (John 7:8-10) Can a lying Christ save? Does a lying Christ cleanse from all unrighteousness?

Many remove the virgin birth. Some remove the cross.

Jesus warned about false Christ's, as did John also. One cannot come to God throught a false christ. Jesus is the way. (John 14:6)

 

I'm living proof that one can be saved and follow Christ using a MV. I was saved and used the NIV for the first couple years of my Christian life. Don't get me wrong, I believe the King James Bible is the only Bible without any errors in English. That being said the MV versions do still contain the gospel.

Edited by MatthewDiscipleOfGod

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Thank you for your reply.  I mentioned conscience and convictions as some of the avenues in which the Holy Spirit leads us as well as scripture.  I don't think I mentioned heart.  I also mentioned common sense.  I'm sorry but I am new to this site and still learning to navigate here so not even sure it was you I replied to earlier.  Sorry.  :-)  I agree about struggling with discernment and separation.  My church says women should wear skirts or dresses.  That's how they interpret dressing modestly.  I disagree.  Did I not understand separation correctly because I disagree?  They are basing this principle on scripture.  When I read scripture separation from what I understand means not to take on the world views...it's not about the way I dress.  Yes I should dress modestly but I can do that wearing women's pants.  The scripture is deeper than that.  It's about not being more concerned about appearance but what kind of heart I have toward God.  Even unsaved women wear dresses to work.  That's not how you can tell if someone is separate. So now two people with the same Holy Spirit disagree and we both went to scripture.  Now what?

 

No, you didn't use "heart" in your previous post, I just kind of lumped conscience and heart in together as the same concept. I'm with you on the dress issue. In addition to the type of modesty you're talking about, it's also about asking women to keep themselves sufficiently covered so as not to cause men to lust after them. They may also be considering the passage about men and women not wearing each other's clothes (Due 22:5). However, I think think it's a misinterpretation in our society to say that women must wear dresses as there are a multitude of pant-type garments that are absolutely feminine. The principle is that men should wear men's clothes and women should wear women's clothes. They may be trying to base it on principle, but it's misinterpreted in my opinion.

 

Separation does, indeed, extend to dress and appearance though. Things such as clothing, hairstyles, certain piercings, and tattoos all try to express something. Some scream "look at me!" Some project rebellion. Some seem to try to reveal as much as legally possible. Discernment must be used becase we represent Christ and the way we present ourselves should reflect His holiness more than it does the prevailing philosphies of the world.

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I'm living proof that one can be saved and follow Christ using a MV. I was saved and used the NIV for the first couple years of my Christian life. Don't get me wrong, I believe the King James Bible is the only Bible without any errors in English. That being said the MV versions do still contain the gospel.

Wow!  The NIV that presents a lying christ.  Not sure how one gets saved when being presented with that christ, but OK. 

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For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. If a person hears the Gospel, the real Gospel. the Holy Ghost can deal with their heart and they can be saved. The danger with some of the MV's is that they contain false doctrine and pervert the Gospel; and some do that more than others. I believe what the JKB says in Revelation about adding to and taking away. Leave it alone; leave God's Word pure; why keep publishing "versions?.

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Wow!  The NIV that presents a lying christ.  Not sure how one gets saved when being presented with that christ, but OK. 

The Gospel is present in the NIV, just as it is to one extent or another in all the MVs I've seen, so why couldn't one get saved from reading the Gospel in the NIV?

 

One can follow the "Romans Road" or use other means of presenting the Gospel using an NIV.

 

Did you know the entire Bible from front to back and every bit of who and what Jesus was before you were saved? Such isn't necessary. All that's necessary is for one to allow their heart to be moved and prepared by the Holy Ghost and to hear or read the Gospel message of salvation and accept Christ as their Saviour. A Bible in hand, or being used, isn't even necessary.

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John, I did not know every bit of the Bible. But, that is not the point It is who the Gospel is pointing to that is the issue. For instance:

The name Jesus is in the Bible 942 times. Suppose I were to change every instance to, say "Wayne." (sorry heartstrings)

Would I be pointing to the Saviour by telling someone, "The angel told Mary to name the child Wayne because he would save his people from their sin."

Of course I wouldn't. I have taken the focus off of the true Saviour and placed it on someone else.

It is the same with the attributes. The Jesus many modern Bibles present is a liar. They point to "another christ". And many bear with them.

Yes, they present the Gospel. But when the Gospel points to another christ, it does no good whatsoever for the soul. Trust is placed in the wrong person. There is none other name whereby we must be saved, but the name of Jesus. And it must be the correct Jesus. There are many who will come calling themselves Jesus who are not Jesus. There are many Jesus's being presented to people today in these modern versions that aren't even qualified to die for these people's sin because these Jesus's are sinners themselves.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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I haven't read all the posts in pertaining to the topic of the OP.  However, I got the jist that this is about CCM.  Sadly, where I live, we do not get gospel music on the radio much at all.  The big Christian station, promotes CCM, although they do play some gospel from time to time, especially on Sunday morning, when we are headed to church.   The second Christian station is all talk radio.  They do have programs like "Focus on the Family" and "Moody Bible" though.  Most of the talk is by women, as well.  What has happened to the men?  Although, Dr. Erwin Lutzer preaches from time to time.  Three years ago, I got excited b/c an IFB friend in my area, told me about a new Christian station.  I took down the name, but sadly to my surprise, it was a Catholic station.  I specifically heard them play the Gregorian Chant.  :scratchchin: The station had turned Catholic in a matter of a week.  So, what do I do besides listen to gospel music on DVD?  I have an IPhone now, but don't know how to use many of the features yet.  Downloading some gospel music would be nice.  Any other suggestions suggestions?  BTW, I do have an old hymn's music book, from my church, at home.  

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I haven't read all the posts in pertaining to the topic of the OP.  However, I got the jist that this is about CCM.  Sadly, where I live, we do not get gospel music on the radio much at all.  The big Christian station, promotes CCM, although they do play some gospel from time to time, especially on Sunday morning, when we are headed to church.   The second Christian station is all talk radio.  They do have programs like "Focus on the Family" and "Moody Bible" though.  Most of the talk is by women, as well.  What has happened to the men?  Although, Dr. Erwin Lutzer preaches from time to time.  Three years ago, I got excited b/c an IFB friend in my area, told me about a new Christian station.  I took down the name, but sadly to my surprise, it was a Catholic station.  I specifically heard them play the Gregorian Chant.  :scratchchin: The station had turned Catholic in a matter of a week.  So, what do I do besides listen to gospel music on DVD?  I have an IPhone now, but don't know how to use many of the features yet.  Downloading some gospel music would be nice.  Any other suggestions suggestions?  BTW, I do have an old hymn's music book, from my church, at home.  

 

We have the same problem with Christian radio were we live.

 

When there's something good to listen to on one of the so called Christian stations, I will listen, if not off goes the radio.

 

Generally on our short drive to church on Sunday morning we listen to a local Baptist pastor on a local station. I like most of what he says, the one thing I do not care for he seems stuck on bringing up his salvation experience. Nothing wrong with that except that he brings it up way to often, & I feel sure like me, everyone in that church has it memorized by now. The Sunday's he does not mention it, he is pretty good.

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I know first-hand the power of music.  I grew up surrounding myself with music.  I loved it all...from hard rock, rap, to country.  I lived and breathed music for many years.  After being saved music was not one of the first things I was convicted about.

 

I now only listen to hymns and spiritual songs nothing counterfeit.  Satan always has a counterfeit for everything of God.

 

Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 

 

I have learned music is very powerful.  Some would say it is clearly quite possible satan was  beautiful, covered in precious stones, and a musical angel with tabrets and pipes.  That he even seduced Eve in a musical way to sin in the Garden of Eden.

 

  

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 

 

Music does matter in living separated for Christ.

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