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Why Not Stick With The Original Melody? Huh?


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Well, we can agree to disagree that we have a different perspective on separation, but if you're going to post your thoughts on a forum, other people will post theirs. :wink  That's the way a discussion board works, and, in truth, the Bible tells us that is one way to sharpen our beliefs (as iron sharpeneth iron).  

 

No-one on here asked you or anyone else to live like the Amish - they aren't scriptural in much of what they do, least of all salvation, so there would be no way we would encourage anyone to live like them.  And no-one has ever accused anyone on here of being perfect.  :coverlaugh:

 

I find it interesting that people will often pull out the "we're not under the law anymore" argument to justify whatever it is they want to justify.  But the problem with that is that we ARE under a law: Jesus Christ said "If ye love me, keep my commandments."  So, we are to keep certain things.  For salvation? No, of course not.  Our position as children of God, once saved, is never again in doubt or peril. What are we to keep?

 

Well, the NT is replete with instruction, principle, precept, and command that we are to obey.  Why?  Because God said so.  He says to us to "come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."  Who is the them?  Simply put - those who serve another god.  God tells us to come out from them, be separate, and He will receive us. He's not talking about sonship here, because He is talking to His children already. He is talking about fellowship.  

 

Tradition of men, rudiments of the world, vain deceit...that's what we have when we try to walk a line close to the world and its sinful pleasures.  Yes, our music, our dress, our speech, our very attitudes must reflect Christ or we are not walking in Him.  And if we are not walking in Him, our minds are not renewed, but we are conformed to the world.  When we pattern ourselves after the world, we are not walking in Him.

 

That does not mean that we must put ourselves in a box and never venture out or do anything. But it does mean that we must determine that "whether therefore [we] eat or drink, or whatsoever [we] do, do ALL to the glory of God."  However, just because we SAY we are doing something to God's glory doesn't mean we ARE.  

 

Everything we do must pass scrutiny of scripture. If it doesn't, then it's not biblical, hence not right for a child of God to do.  And that goes to so much more than just agreeing to disagree.  :)

I mentioned the Amish because they believe the way they live is being separate from the world.  I didn't assume anyone was telling me to live like one.  Silly.  :-) I believe when I listen to CCM I am doing it in the spirit of glorifying God because of what the lyrics are saying about Him.  It's similar to me pouring my heart out to him in prayer and worship without music.  I worship Him when I put food in my mouth cuz I know it's from Him.  P.s.  I know that if I post my thoughts there would be replies.  I didn't discourage you NOT to reply.  I actually thanked you for it.  Sometimes forums are hard to engage in these types of topics because we can't see the other person's facial expressions or hear the tone in their voice and we don't know each other personally.  I tend to be a little sarcastic...hence the Amish comment but never mean to offend.  I don't think Christians will ever agree on every issue there is under the sun and that is why there is so much division.  No one has all the answers.  I'm actually reading my devotions in 1 Corinthians daily right now.  They were fighting about who is right or wrong on topics and why Paul had to address them.  Although the topic I am referring to is not about CCM but whether or not we should eat meat sacrificed to idols...again addressed to Christians who shouldn't believe in other man made Gods but had tender consciences, nevertheless were still considered Christians as that's who Paul was addressing.  I don't even think that's an issue today cuz no one I know goes to the grocery store and wonders if the meat was sacrificed.  We are to build each other up in love.  So back to the original topic of CCM.  I think some things have been taken out of context so I'm going to end that conversation because we still don't agree and since we should love one another as Christians I am going to refrain from exercising my freedom in Christ.  They didn't even have CCM back then.  God's principles are still the same and it's more than just about the music but our attitude, heart and love for on another.  That's what separates us from the world.

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Maybe our definition of what CCM is or what audience it is trying to attract.  I personally think it's for Christians as a form to use in worship and not a form to try to reach an unsaved world.  And there are different CCM artists...some not as good as others.  So in a way I see your view of some CCM artists trying to fit in with the world.  But let me just share with you my experience.  My daughter and I, who was 16 at the time,  were driving and she wanted to put on the radio.  A secular station.  I changed it to a CCM station.  She listened to the lyrics and said "this makes me want to go to church".  So that's what we did.  We went to church.  After that, driving home, she was compelled to turn on the radio to a secular station again but then was convicted by the worldly lyrics and turned it off.  I still see it as a positive.  Again, we can quote Bible verses but I think it still comes down to one's convictions, spiritual maturity and conscience.  As for other things you mentioned about men walking holding hands.  That still shocks me!  As for the girl and her abortion, she was justifying her actions.  Anyway, I don't believe we will come to a consensus on this matter but respect your point of view and respectfully agree to disagree.  Thank you for being cordial.  

 

I won't at all discount your experience and think that your daughter getting back to church is a great. That's always a positive thing but should be the first step of many. I always caution people though who want to follow only their hearts/conscience or their convictions. Firstly, the heart is decietful and wicked above all else (Jer 17:9) and cannot be trusted to lead down the paths of righteousness. More often than not it leads to what we want personally and not what God wants. Second, people are convicted differently about different things at different times and until one is becoming more spiritually mature and more in tune with God it can be difficult to discern what is truly from the Holy Spirit and what is not. That is why our lives should be guided by Biblical principle and not convictions, feelings, and preference. Those aren't always wrong and we should definitely listen to them, but they must be viewed through the lense of Scripture.

 

We can certainly disagree on what constitutes CCM, but I do think the principle of Biblical separation and spiritual discernment are critical areas because churches and individual Christians struggle greatly with them.

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I won't at all discount your experience and think that your daughter getting back to church is a great. That's always a positive thing but should be the first step of many. I always caution people though who want to follow only their hearts/conscience or their convictions. Firstly, the heart is decietful and wicked above all else (Jer 17:9) and cannot be trusted to lead down the paths of righteousness. More often than not it leads to what we want personally and not what God wants. Second, people are convicted differently about different things at different times and until one is becoming more spiritually mature and more in tune with God it can be difficult to discern what is truly from the Holy Spirit and what is not. That is why our lives should be guided by Biblical principle and not convictions, feelings, and preference. Those aren't always wrong and we should definitely listen to them, but they must be viewed through the lense of Scripture.

 

We can certainly disagree on what constitutes CCM, but I do think the principle of Biblical separation and spiritual discernment are critical areas because churches and individual Christians struggle greatly with them.

Thank you for your reply.  I mentioned conscience and convictions as some of the avenues in which the Holy Spirit leads us as well as scripture.  I don't think I mentioned heart.  I also mentioned common sense.  I'm sorry but I am new to this site and still learning to navigate here so not even sure it was you I replied to earlier.  Sorry.  :-)  I agree about struggling with discernment and separation.  My church says women should wear skirts or dresses.  That's how they interpret dressing modestly.  I disagree.  Did I not understand separation correctly because I disagree?  They are basing this principle on scripture.  When I read scripture separation from what I understand means not to take on the world views...it's not about the way I dress.  Yes I should dress modestly but I can do that wearing women's pants.  The scripture is deeper than that.  It's about not being more concerned about appearance but what kind of heart I have toward God.  Even unsaved women wear dresses to work.  That's not how you can tell if someone is separate. So now two people with the same Holy Spirit disagree and we both went to scripture.  Now what?

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Our Christian Christmas holiday to celebrate the birth of Jesus started as a pagan holiday.  Should we now not celebrate Christmas?  "All things work together for good for those who love the Lord."  Romans 8:28

Actually, we should probably NOT celebrate Christmas because it IS pagan, both in origin as well as a majority of the traditions. It is the spawn not of Christianity but Catholicism, and is, in fact, a clear breaking of the command to separate. "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"

Whart concord, indeed, does Christ have with Belial? But its alright for Christ to have concord with paganism and the wicked Roman Catholic church?

 

And the verse you give is really being wrested out of its meaning and context the way you have twisted it, by implying that anything we do will somehow turn out for good. So my sin will work for good? Then let us continue in sin, shall we?

 

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Below is a little bit of history of how cultures change but God is still in control even in CCM.  We need to get with the current century.

In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. This is because it is not commanded, nor directed in scripture. As for easter, no, true Christians did not celebrate 'Easter', for it, too, is pagan-we celebrated the resurrection, closely associated with the feast of Passover, as it was on the frst day of the week after Passover that Jesus rose from the dead. easter is much older than Christianity and was being celebrated for many centuries, as a spring fewast of fertility.Again, the catholic church followed the pagan traditions, rather than the Bible.  In the fourth century, church (Catholic, not Christian,)officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday (so they could lure in the pagans keeping the feast of Saturnalia). Unfortunately, the Bible does not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration about which they were absolutely correct). Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Most likely it was in the Autumn, when the Passover lambs were born, seeing as Jesus was the Passover Lamb of God who died ON Passover. Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. BINGO!

By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated. By the Middle Ages, Christianity had, for the most part, replaced pagan religion. well, pagan catholicism had replaced Christianity before much of the world, though there were still biblical churches about, persecuted though they were.

An Outlaw Christmas

In the early 17th century, a wave of religious reform changed the way Christmas was celebrated in Europe. When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. By popular demand, Charles II was restored to the throne and, with him, came the return of the popular holiday.

The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all and passed without incident. The Jamestown settlement was an almost totally secular settlement.

After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.A terrible mistake. The puritans were correct not to celebrate it.  Christmas was rightly seen as a Cathoic feast, not a Christian one, and when we consider a major reasn people began settling in America was to escape the persecution of the Catholic church. But see, when we forget history, we fall into repeating it.

 

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At the same time Christmas was banned in the Puritan areas, it was widely celebrated in the Southern States and some of the Middle States. Some considered the banning of Christmas to be a "Calvinist" thing.

 

There is no consensus regarding Christmas just as there is none regarding music. For most today Christmas is a very commercial "holiday" where the world and many Christians just want to get on with the feasting and shopping and getting and giving of presents. At the same time, some Christians now see Christmas as some sort of "sacred battleground" so they try to make Christmas even more Christian than before and use it as a political tool.

 

When it comes to music, I know some sound Christians who listen to some CCM. At the same time I know some Christians who only listen to hymns but their walk with the Lord is lacking. Vice-versa regarding both too.

 

I know of some folks who were saved listening to CCM just as most folks I've known over the years were saved using a Bible other than the KJB.

 

God can use a variety of things and God can bless some things in our lives at different times, then perhaps later lead us away from certain things into something new. We all mature and grow at different rates and times. God deals with each of His people as individuals and while He may be dealing with me regarding patience, he may be dealing with you on anger, another on books, another on music, another on their dress, another about witnessing, etc.

 

A believer can a be a follower of Christ though he listens to CCM, or uses an MV, or watches Duck Dynasty, or attends football games, or goes to the beach, or attends a Methodist, AOG, SBC or IFB church or kissed their spouse before they were married. Any of those areas that's a problem, the Lord will convict them of it in His perfect timing. God's perfect timing probably isn't the same as ours and the order He chooses to deal with individuals problem areas probably isn't the same we would select.

 

We need to be very careful regarding these matters and how we deal with our brothers/sisters in Christ. We shouldn't be condemning them, as some do. We should be leaving plenty of room for the Holy Ghost to work in God's timing.

 

Nothing wrong with telling a brother/sister in Christ our thoughts on the NIV vs the KJB, but we step way out of line if we tell them they can't be saved if they use the NIV or they aren't really following Jesus. Those are areas only the Lord can see and know clearly and He will deal with His servants on these matters in His perfect timing.

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I am not totally convinced that one can be saved, or even follow Christ, using a MV.

Many MV's portray Christ as a liar. (John 7:8-10) Can a lying Christ save? Does a lying Christ cleanse from all unrighteousness?

Many remove the virgin birth. Some remove the cross.

Jesus warned about false Christ's, as did John also. One cannot come to God throught a false christ. Jesus is the way. (John 14:6)

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I am not totally convinced that one can be saved, or even follow Christ, using a MV.

Many MV's portray Christ as a liar. (John 7:8-10) Can a lying Christ save? Does a lying Christ cleanse from all unrighteousness?

Many remove the virgin birth. Some remove the cross.

Jesus warned about false Christ's, as did John also. One cannot come to God throught a false christ. Jesus is the way. (John 14:6)

How many folks, prior to salvation, have really read and studied through any Bible enough to have much of an accurate understanding of what their Bible is saying anyway? Most folks who come to salvation have very little understanding of what any Bible says.

 

Most Christians I know of were saved before they ever used a KJB or before they started using a KJB.

 

I was saved just after turning 18 and the only Bible I had ever read any of prior to that was an RSV. The man who introduced me to a great Baptist pastor, and helped disciple me, was born again reading The Living Bible.

 

Even today I know many Christians who I have no doubt at all they are saved and following Christ, who yet use MVs. How they manage such a close walk with the Lord using MVs, I don't know, I know I couldn't, but the Lord is amazing in what He can use and how He can use it.

 

Don't forget all those who were saved and followed Christ before the KJB, who often didn't have any form of Bible at all. Still today, around the globe many are saved and follow Christ without a KJB.

 

I know for myself, I tried various MVs in my early years after salvation and I only experienced minimal growth in the Lord. Then one day, very clearly, the Lord led me to pick up a KJB and use that only. That led to dramatic and quick growth in the Lord. That's how the Lord worked things in my life, so that's just my personal example.

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I am not totally convinced that one can be saved, or even follow Christ, using a MV.

Many MV's portray Christ as a liar. (John 7:8-10) Can a lying Christ save? Does a lying Christ cleanse from all unrighteousness?

Many remove the virgin birth. Some remove the cross.

Jesus warned about false Christ's, as did John also. One cannot come to God throught a false christ. Jesus is the way. (John 14:6)

 

I'm living proof that one can be saved and follow Christ using a MV. I was saved and used the NIV for the first couple years of my Christian life. Don't get me wrong, I believe the King James Bible is the only Bible without any errors in English. That being said the MV versions do still contain the gospel.

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Thank you for your reply.  I mentioned conscience and convictions as some of the avenues in which the Holy Spirit leads us as well as scripture.  I don't think I mentioned heart.  I also mentioned common sense.  I'm sorry but I am new to this site and still learning to navigate here so not even sure it was you I replied to earlier.  Sorry.  :-)  I agree about struggling with discernment and separation.  My church says women should wear skirts or dresses.  That's how they interpret dressing modestly.  I disagree.  Did I not understand separation correctly because I disagree?  They are basing this principle on scripture.  When I read scripture separation from what I understand means not to take on the world views...it's not about the way I dress.  Yes I should dress modestly but I can do that wearing women's pants.  The scripture is deeper than that.  It's about not being more concerned about appearance but what kind of heart I have toward God.  Even unsaved women wear dresses to work.  That's not how you can tell if someone is separate. So now two people with the same Holy Spirit disagree and we both went to scripture.  Now what?

 

No, you didn't use "heart" in your previous post, I just kind of lumped conscience and heart in together as the same concept. I'm with you on the dress issue. In addition to the type of modesty you're talking about, it's also about asking women to keep themselves sufficiently covered so as not to cause men to lust after them. They may also be considering the passage about men and women not wearing each other's clothes (Due 22:5). However, I think think it's a misinterpretation in our society to say that women must wear dresses as there are a multitude of pant-type garments that are absolutely feminine. The principle is that men should wear men's clothes and women should wear women's clothes. They may be trying to base it on principle, but it's misinterpreted in my opinion.

 

Separation does, indeed, extend to dress and appearance though. Things such as clothing, hairstyles, certain piercings, and tattoos all try to express something. Some scream "look at me!" Some project rebellion. Some seem to try to reveal as much as legally possible. Discernment must be used becase we represent Christ and the way we present ourselves should reflect His holiness more than it does the prevailing philosphies of the world.

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I'm living proof that one can be saved and follow Christ using a MV. I was saved and used the NIV for the first couple years of my Christian life. Don't get me wrong, I believe the King James Bible is the only Bible without any errors in English. That being said the MV versions do still contain the gospel.

Wow!  The NIV that presents a lying christ.  Not sure how one gets saved when being presented with that christ, but OK. 

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For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. If a person hears the Gospel, the real Gospel. the Holy Ghost can deal with their heart and they can be saved. The danger with some of the MV's is that they contain false doctrine and pervert the Gospel; and some do that more than others. I believe what the JKB says in Revelation about adding to and taking away. Leave it alone; leave God's Word pure; why keep publishing "versions?.

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Wow!  The NIV that presents a lying christ.  Not sure how one gets saved when being presented with that christ, but OK. 

The Gospel is present in the NIV, just as it is to one extent or another in all the MVs I've seen, so why couldn't one get saved from reading the Gospel in the NIV?

 

One can follow the "Romans Road" or use other means of presenting the Gospel using an NIV.

 

Did you know the entire Bible from front to back and every bit of who and what Jesus was before you were saved? Such isn't necessary. All that's necessary is for one to allow their heart to be moved and prepared by the Holy Ghost and to hear or read the Gospel message of salvation and accept Christ as their Saviour. A Bible in hand, or being used, isn't even necessary.

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John, I did not know every bit of the Bible. But, that is not the point It is who the Gospel is pointing to that is the issue. For instance:

The name Jesus is in the Bible 942 times. Suppose I were to change every instance to, say "Wayne." (sorry heartstrings)

Would I be pointing to the Saviour by telling someone, "The angel told Mary to name the child Wayne because he would save his people from their sin."

Of course I wouldn't. I have taken the focus off of the true Saviour and placed it on someone else.

It is the same with the attributes. The Jesus many modern Bibles present is a liar. They point to "another christ". And many bear with them.

Yes, they present the Gospel. But when the Gospel points to another christ, it does no good whatsoever for the soul. Trust is placed in the wrong person. There is none other name whereby we must be saved, but the name of Jesus. And it must be the correct Jesus. There are many who will come calling themselves Jesus who are not Jesus. There are many Jesus's being presented to people today in these modern versions that aren't even qualified to die for these people's sin because these Jesus's are sinners themselves.

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