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Why Not Stick With The Original Melody? Huh?


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Music can be a powerful force.  I know a man that played in a rock band before he got saved.  He said that when the night wore on, and they were getting tired, they could cause a fight by stepping up the tempo, then they got to leave early!  There is a certain beat to rock music that is both sensual and confusing to the senses, and a "good" musician can tell the difference.  I forget what it's called, but they have a name for that type of beat. (seems like it was "discordance" or something like that.)  This was stright from the horses mouth so to speak. 

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This is probably how original ancient music in Biblical times sounded like.  Doesn't sound like CCM or our hymns of our day.  As beautiful as it is...let's see if you would listen to this every day.  http://bobb-cypressgrovebluescom.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-did-songs-of-bible-originally.html

I like the Psalm 23 one....nice. But I wouldn't listen to any song all day. Any song gets old after awhile.

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The major issue at hand here, I think, is the obvious desire to make the hymn sound like the music of the world-it is a deliberate design to erase godly separation to appeal to a larger crowd.

 

A lot of people will say, "Well, what does it matter, as long as it brings people to the Lord?" Well, it does matter for a couple reasons:

   1: because if you seek to use worldly methods to bring people to Christ, the best yu get is worldly Christians

   2: because music was never intended to be about bringing people to Christ-it is by preaching that people are converted, not scintillating the emotions to bring about an emotional response. most who respond in such a way will be like the seed that was cast on rocky soil, which grew quickly, but had no root and died.

 

CCM began in the Jesus People movement, where unsaved hippies were brought together and encouraged to perform their music for services, the exact same music they performed in secular venues, with a few word changes to sound Christian. and that's about exactly what it still is.

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The major issue at hand here, I think, is the obvious desire to make the hymn sound like the music of the world-it is a deliberate design to erase godly separation to appeal to a larger crowd.

 

A lot of people will say, "Well, what does it matter, as long as it brings people to the Lord?" Well, it does matter for a couple reasons:

   1: because if you seek to use worldly methods to bring people to Christ, the best yu get is worldly Christians

   2: because music was never intended to be about bringing people to Christ-it is by preaching that people are converted, not scintillating the emotions to bring about an emotional response. most who respond in such a way will be like the seed that was cast on rocky soil, which grew quickly, but had no root and died.

 

CCM began in the Jesus People movement, where unsaved hippies were brought together and encouraged to perform their music for services, the exact same music they performed in secular venues, with a few word changes to sound Christian. and that's about exactly what it still is.

Our Christian Christmas holiday to celebrate the birth of Jesus started as a pagan holiday.  Should we now not celebrate Christmas?  "All things work together for good for those who love the Lord."  Romans 8:28

Below is a little bit of history of how cultures change but God is still in control even in CCM.  We need to get with the current century.

In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. Unfortunately, the Bible does not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration). Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. 

By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated. By the Middle Ages, Christianity had, for the most part, replaced pagan religion. 

An Outlaw Christmas

In the early 17th century, a wave of religious reform changed the way Christmas was celebrated in Europe. When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. By popular demand, Charles II was restored to the throne and, with him, came the return of the popular holiday.

The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all and passed without incident.

After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.

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Separation from the world doesn't mean to refrain from earthly activity.  It means to raise our consciousness to oneness with God unlike the world.  So why can't God use CCM to reach someone?  

Because God calls us out of the world's philosophy when we are saved.  "Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind..."   Following the world's way of entertainment (which is largely what CCM does) is conforming to them.  Using the world's music is not transforming by renewing our minds - it is staying in the mire from which we were rescued by adding a few gospel words to it.

 

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your definition.  We are not to raise our consciousness to oneness with God. That is actually new age speak...God has called us to be conformed to the image of His son.  We cannot do that when we emulate the sinful world, and the sinful practices from which we are saved.  

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Our Christian Christmas holiday to celebrate the birth of Jesus started as a pagan holiday.  Should we now not celebrate Christmas?  

 

"All things work together for good for those who love the Lord."  Romans 8:28

 

This is an apples-to-oranges, and thus invalid, comparison. What you're talking about is the implemenation of a Christian celebration in place of the celebration of an opposing faith system (paganism). The intent was to supplant the pagan holiday, not emulate it. We can argue all day about it going awry and becoming a worship of Santa Claus, but that's not really the point. CCM, on the other hand, is an attempt to accomodate secular tastes and sensitivities and pass it off as Christian. Two completely different scenarios.

 

Additionally, your application of Romans 8:28 is off the mark. Rom 8:28, firstly, only applies to the believer as indicated by the second two thirds of the verse, "to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." This verse in no way applies to the unsaved. Additionally, verses 29-30 clarify that He does so in order that those believers will be conformed to the image of Christ, and not the world (see also Rom 12:1-2). God does not use Christian behavior that is contrary to His Word; rather, he reproves and corrects it (Heb 12:5-6).

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This is an apples-to-oranges, and thus invalid, comparison. What you're talking about is the implemenation of a Christian celebration in place of the celebration of an opposing faith system (paganism). The intent was to supplant the pagan holiday, not emulate it. We can argue all day about it going awry and becoming a worship of Santa Claus, but that's not really the point. CCM, on the other hand, is an attempt to accomodate secular tastes and sensitivities and pass it off as Christian. Two completely different scenarios.

 

Additionally, your application of Romans 8:28 is off the mark. Rom 8:28, firstly, only applies to the believer as indicated by the second two thirds of the verse, "to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." This verse in no way applies to the unsaved. Additionally, verses 29-30 clarify that He does so in order that those believers will be conformed to the image of Christ, and not the world (see also Rom 12:1-2). God does not use Christian behavior that is contrary to His Word; rather, he reproves and corrects it (Heb 12:5-6).

How is it not in comparison?  Taking a pagan holiday and making it Christian.  Taking secular music and making it Christian.  Our hymns don't sound like the music of Biblical times.  It sounds like music from that century which probably sounded similar to secular music of that time.  Hear for yourself.  http://bobb-cypressgrovebluescom.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-did-songs-of-bible-originally.html Take today's English language.  No one says "thee", "thou" and "thy" anymore.  Should I speak that way in every day conversation as to make myself look different to the world?  What is new age about a conscience?  God gave us a conscience and common sense.  When I referred to "all things work together to those that love the Lord" I was implying that if He can take what was originally a pagan holiday such as Christmas and turn it into a Christian holiday, why can't He then take music CCM and do the same?  He also created music.  Music is not what is bad..it's how we use it to glorify God just like anything else in life.  A lot of these conversations regarding CCM sound legalistic to me.  What we can and can't do.  Don't listen to this...don't watch this...don't wear pants, etc.  1 Cor 6:12 "All things are permissible unless God says "no" but not all things are beneficial".  If your convictions are not to listen to CCM then don't if it stirs up your old nature.  Those are not my convictions but if we were friends and were driving in my car I would not play it on the radio because of a tender conscience and cause my brother to fall into something he thinks is wrong.  My convictions come from the Holy Spirit not from this forum.  On another note, thank you for your reply.  I am very straight forward in the way I speak and if I sounded harsh, I apologize in advance.

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Because God calls us out of the world's philosophy when we are saved.  "Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind..."   Following the world's way of entertainment (which is largely what CCM does) is conforming to them.  Using the world's music is not transforming by renewing our minds - it is staying in the mire from which we were rescued by adding a few gospel words to it.

 

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your definition.  We are not to raise our consciousness to oneness with God. That is actually new age speak...God has called us to be conformed to the image of His son.  We cannot do that when we emulate the sinful world, and the sinful practices from which we are saved.  

What are sinful practices?  Going to a football game?  The world does that.  Engaging in celebrations?  The world does that. I could go on but my point is when we are chosen, called out or "not to be conformed to this world" means we are not to think about God with the philosophies of the unsaved world views.  The renewing of our minds comes from the Holy Spirit which the unsaved world does not have in them.  When we got saved we changed our mind about sin.  The sin we changed our mind about is that fact that we needed a savior which the world doesn't understand because they do not recognize their sin or the necessity of needing to be saved.  It's not about dos and don'ts.  That was the old law which was for the Jews and didn't work so Christ had to fulfill the law because we couldn't.  With that said, I believe my mind is renewed.  Am I perfect?  Of course not!  Let's agree to disagree that we have a different perspective on what it means to be separate from the world.  I don't want to live like the Amish.  

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How is it not in comparison?  Taking a pagan holiday and making it Christian.  Taking secular music and making it Christian.  Our hymns don't sound like the music of Biblical times.  It sounds like music from that century which probably sounded similar to secular music of that time.  Hear for yourself.  http://bobb-cypressgrovebluescom.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-did-songs-of-bible-originally.html Take today's English language.  No one says "thee", "thou" and "thy" anymore.  Should I speak that way in every day conversation as to make myself look different to the world?  What is new age about a conscience?  God gave us a conscience and common sense.  

 

Think of it like a gym full of high school students where several cliques are associating in different areas. Say there are two groups who consider themselves Christians. Both want to grow and win people to their group. On group says, "hey, lets all break up and go to each group and blend in. Maybe we can get some people to leave the group and come back with us." In a perhaps genuine effort to bring people into their group, they've merely assimilated into a different, non-Christian group. The second Christian group says, "hey, we know that what we're doing is right, but we need everyone else to know. Let's go stand in the middle of the gymn and let them see what we're all about." Everyone else sees how this group is different and their qualities and personality are clearly on display. Some scoff...some dismiss...but some decide what they've got is worth having and go join the group in the middle. That's the difference we're talking about here. Christmas was an put on a pagan holiday to be different and attempt draw people away from unbelief (not necessarily arguing how effective it was, just the intent). CCM is trying to be like everyone else so people can see that they're not that different.

 

 

 When I referred to "all things work together to those that love the Lord" I was implying that if He can take what was originally a pagan holiday such as Christmas and turn it into a Christian holiday, why can't He then take music CCM and do the same?  He also created music.  Music is not what is bad..it's how we use it to glorify God just like anything else in life.  A lot of these conversations regarding CCM sound legalistic to me.  What we can and can't do.  Don't listen to this...don't watch this...don't wear pants, etc.  1 Cor 6:12 "All things are permissible unless God says "no" but not all things are beneficial".  If your convictions are not to listen to CCM then don't if it stirs up your old nature.  Those are not my convictions but if we were friends and were driving in my car I would not play it on the radio because of a tender conscience and cause my brother to fall into something he thinks is wrong.  My convictions come from the Holy Spirit not from this forum. 

 

Again, God doesn't use actions contrary to His Word or nature, he rebukes them. This line of thought leads produces some strange assertions. I once had a girl try to convince me that God used her abortion for the good that unborn child and for the good of her current daughter because she wouldn't have been a good mother at that time in her life. We have to be honest about Christmas and admit that it is an entirely man-made holiday that rarely actually focuses on God outside of church building. Rather than a steady evangelistic tool that draw people to God, it is a host of distractions. Don't get me wrong, I love Christmas and I enjoy celebrating my Savior's birth as I'm sure a great many people do. However, on the whole it is an overly materialistic and worldly event.

 

With regard to 1 Cor 6:12, the larger context is more about causing others to stumble rather than it is falling into temptation yourself. Additionally, it focuses more on the negative than the positive; it is better to err on the side of not doing something for the sake of your testimony than using our Christian liberty to satisfy our flesh. The people of Corinth were having a problem separating themselves from the surrounding pagan cultural practice and it was causing a huge problem in the church. It is such a great parallel to what is going on in America today. Christians are getting bogged down by trying to participate in the ungodly parts/practices of the secular world and are doing more to bring down the body of Christ than they are to elevate it. The thing about CCM here is that it is inherently worldly and self-aggrandizing. The point about not promoting it is more about giving unbelievers and newer, less mature Christians an accurate and consistent picture of God and the Gospel so that they can focus on becoming more like Christ rather than holding onto a piece of their old life (e.g. the style of music they used to like).

 

 

 

On another note, thank you for your reply.  I am very straight forward in the way I speak and if I sounded harsh, I apologize in advance.

 

No worries, I've been accused of the very same. I mean only to lovingly exhort and edify.

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What are sinful practices?  Going to a football game?  The world does that.  Engaging in celebrations?  The world does that. I could go on but my point is when we are chosen, called out or "not to be conformed to this world" means we are not to think about God with the philosophies of the unsaved world views.  The renewing of our minds comes from the Holy Spirit which the unsaved world does not have in them.  When we got saved we changed our mind about sin.  The sin we changed our mind about is that fact that we needed a savior which the world doesn't understand because they do not recognize their sin or the necessity of needing to be saved.  It's not about dos and don'ts.  That was the old law which was for the Jews and didn't work so Christ had to fulfill the law because we couldn't.  With that said, I believe my mind is renewed.  Am I perfect?  Of course not!  Let's agree to disagree that we have a different perspective on what it means to be separate from the world.  I don't want to live like the Amish. 

That's the problem today. We keep blurring the lines between what's sin and what's not until things which used to convict people, no longer do. Rock music was born out of anarchy, rebellion, and lust. But God's people have gradually adopted what only the hippies, the bars, and the rock concerts revelled in,in times past until we no longer see what's wrong with it. Thinks people once sneaked around to do, are now out in the open. And now? Seeing things like two men waling down the street holdin hands once SHOCKED people but it will become so commonplace that the shock will gradually diminish until it's no biog deal anymore.. Mark my words. Ma'am. I've been to rock concerts, and this type of music, is the same basic style...it appeals to the flesh.

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What are sinful practices?  Going to a football game?  The world does that.  Engaging in celebrations?  The world does that. I could go on but my point is when we are chosen, called out or "not to be conformed to this world" means we are not to think about God with the philosophies of the unsaved world views.  The renewing of our minds comes from the Holy Spirit which the unsaved world does not have in them.  When we got saved we changed our mind about sin.  The sin we changed our mind about is that fact that we needed a savior which the world doesn't understand because they do not recognize their sin or the necessity of needing to be saved.  It's not about dos and don'ts.  That was the old law which was for the Jews and didn't work so Christ had to fulfill the law because we couldn't.  With that said, I believe my mind is renewed.  Am I perfect?  Of course not!  Let's agree to disagree that we have a different perspective on what it means to be separate from the world.  I don't want to live like the Amish.  

 

I disagree somewhat on a couple points here. The first part of that command to "be not conformed" is that we are to "present [our] bodies a living sacrifice". That is, living a life that is holy and separated unto God and in His service. Christians are to be distinctly different and set apart by God which is why we're not to be conformed the the world (see also 2 Cor 6:17). Second, the renewing of the mind is enabled by the Holy Spirit, but it is done through the Word of God. Be careful casting off the OT Law so lightly. Yes, we do not live under the Law and are not bound by it. However, within it is the mind of God on a great many things. This is the principle behind what 2 Timothy 3:16-17 which, referencing the OT in particular, is Paul telling Timothy that ALL Scripture is good for doctrine (teaching what's right), reproof (showing you what's wrong), correction (showing how to get right) and instruction in righteousness (showing how to stay right). The idea of a renewed mind is a continual and lifelong thing. It goes beyond repentence (changing your mind about sin) and is about putting your mind on the things that please God and not the things that please self.

 

As we mature as Christians, we are supposed to continually grow more like Christ and less like the sinful world. In no way should this be taking to mean living like the Amish and withdrawing from the world. We're supposed to be a light to the world (Phil 2:14-15) and a preservative salt (Matt 5:13). We can't win people to Christ without being IN the world but nor can we do it by being OF the world.

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What are sinful practices?  Going to a football game?  The world does that.  Engaging in celebrations?  The world does that. The "world" breathes, eats, sleeps, and works, also. I could go on but my point is when we are chosen, called out or "not to be conformed to this world" means we are not to think about God with the philosophies of the unsaved world views.  Well, yes - because the thought is the father to the deed. If we think it, we will do it. The renewing of our minds comes from the Holy Spirit No. Renewing of our mind comes from saturating ourselves with God's Word, from which the Holy Spirit teaches us truth which the unsaved world does not have in them.  When we got saved we changed our mind about sin.  The sin we changed our mind about is that fact that we needed a savior which the world doesn't understand because they do not recognize their sin or the necessity of needing to be saved.  It's not about dos and don'ts.  That was the old law which was for the Jews and didn't work so Christ had to fulfill the law because we couldn't.  With that said, I believe my mind is renewed.  Am I perfect?  Of course not!  Let's agree to disagree that we have a different perspective on what it means to be separate from the world.  I don't want to live like the Amish.  

Well, we can agree to disagree that we have a different perspective on separation, but if you're going to post your thoughts on a forum, other people will post theirs. :wink  That's the way a discussion board works, and, in truth, the Bible tells us that is one way to sharpen our beliefs (as iron sharpeneth iron).  

 

No-one on here asked you or anyone else to live like the Amish - they aren't scriptural in much of what they do, least of all salvation, so there would be no way we would encourage anyone to live like them.  And no-one has ever accused anyone on here of being perfect.  :coverlaugh:

 

I find it interesting that people will often pull out the "we're not under the law anymore" argument to justify whatever it is they want to justify.  But the problem with that is that we ARE under a law: Jesus Christ said "If ye love me, keep my commandments."  So, we are to keep certain things.  For salvation? No, of course not.  Our position as children of God, once saved, is never again in doubt or peril. What are we to keep?

 

Well, the NT is replete with instruction, principle, precept, and command that we are to obey.  Why?  Because God said so.  He says to us to "come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."  Who is the them?  Simply put - those who serve another god.  God tells us to come out from them, be separate, and He will receive us. He's not talking about sonship here, because He is talking to His children already. He is talking about fellowship.  

 

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

Tradition of men, rudiments of the world, vain deceit...that's what we have when we try to walk a line close to the world and its sinful pleasures.  Yes, our music, our dress, our speech, our very attitudes must reflect Christ or we are not walking in Him.  And if we are not walking in Him, our minds are not renewed, but we are conformed to the world.  When we pattern ourselves after the world, we are not walking in Him.

 

That does not mean that we must put ourselves in a box and never venture out or do anything. But it does mean that we must determine that "whether therefore [we] eat or drink, or whatsoever [we] do, do ALL to the glory of God."  However, just because we SAY we are doing something to God's glory doesn't mean we ARE.  

 

Everything we do must pass scrutiny of scripture. If it doesn't, then it's not biblical, hence not right for a child of God to do.  And that goes to so much more than just agreeing to disagree.  :)

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Think of it like a gym full of high school students where several cliques are associating in different areas. Say there are two groups who consider themselves Christians. Both want to grow and win people to their group. On group says, "hey, lets all break up and go to each group and blend in. Maybe we can get some people to leave the group and come back with us." In a perhaps genuine effort to bring people into their group, they've merely assimilated into a different, non-Christian group. The second Christian group says, "hey, we know that what we're doing is right, but we need everyone else to know. Let's go stand in the middle of the gymn and let them see what we're all about." Everyone else sees how this group is different and their qualities and personality are clearly on display. Some scoff...some dismiss...but some decide what they've got is worth having and go join the group in the middle. That's the difference we're talking about here. Christmas was an put on a pagan holiday to be different and attempt draw people away from unbelief (not necessarily arguing how effective it was, just the intent). CCM is trying to be like everyone else so people can see that they're not that different.

 

 

 

Again, God doesn't use actions contrary to His Word or nature, he rebukes them. This line of thought leads produces some strange assertions. I once had a girl try to convince me that God used her abortion for the good that unborn child and for the good of her current daughter because she wouldn't have been a good mother at that time in her life. We have to be honest about Christmas and admit that it is an entirely man-made holiday that rarely actually focuses on God outside of church building. Rather than a steady evangelistic tool that draw people to God, it is a host of distractions. Don't get me wrong, I love Christmas and I enjoy celebrating my Savior's birth as I'm sure a great many people do. However, on the whole it is an overly materialistic and worldly event.

 

With regard to 1 Cor 6:12, the larger context is more about causing others to stumble rather than it is falling into temptation yourself. Additionally, it focuses more on the negative than the positive; it is better to err on the side of not doing something for the sake of your testimony than using our Christian liberty to satisfy our flesh. The people of Corinth were having a problem separating themselves from the surrounding pagan cultural practice and it was causing a huge problem in the church. It is such a great parallel to what is going on in America today. Christians are getting bogged down by trying to participate in the ungodly parts/practices of the secular world and are doing more to bring down the body of Christ than they are to elevate it. The thing about CCM here is that it is inherently worldly and self-aggrandizing. The point about not promoting it is more about giving unbelievers and newer, less mature Christians an accurate and consistent picture of God and the Gospel so that they can focus on becoming more like Christ rather than holding onto a piece of their old life (e.g. the style of music they used to like).

 

 

 

 

No worries, I've been accused of the very same. I mean only to lovingly exhort and edify.

Maybe our definition of what CCM is or what audience it is trying to attract.  I personally think it's for Christians as a form to use in worship and not a form to try to reach an unsaved world.  And there are different CCM artists...some not as good as others.  So in a way I see your view of some CCM artists trying to fit in with the world.  But let me just share with you my experience.  My daughter and I, who was 16 at the time,  were driving and she wanted to put on the radio.  A secular station.  I changed it to a CCM station.  She listened to the lyrics and said "this makes me want to go to church".  So that's what we did.  We went to church.  After that, driving home, she was compelled to turn on the radio to a secular station again but then was convicted by the worldly lyrics and turned it off.  I still see it as a positive.  Again, we can quote Bible verses but I think it still comes down to one's convictions, spiritual maturity and conscience.  As for other things you mentioned about men walking holding hands.  That still shocks me!  As for the girl and her abortion, she was justifying her actions.  Anyway, I don't believe we will come to a consensus on this matter but respect your point of view and respectfully agree to disagree.  Thank you for being cordial.  

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