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Way Of Life - Ignoring The Sin Of First Baptist Of Hammond

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I think the main point Cloud is trying to make, is that it doesn't matter who comes in to pastor the church, util the underlying problem is accepted by that church, it will never be fixed. The Jack schaap incident was only a symptom of deeper problems and as long as that church and other pastors speaking there, and the church as a whole, refuse to acknowledge it, it won't be fixed. And as long as such an influential church doesn't deal with the problems, others should be warned off.

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I think the main point Cloud is trying to make, is that it doesn't matter who comes in to pastor the church, util the underlying problem is accepted by that church, it will never be fixed. The Jack schaap incident was only a symptom of deeper problems and as long as that church and other pastors speaking there, and the church as a whole, refuse to acknowledge it, it won't be fixed. And as long as such an influential church doesn't deal with the problems, others should be warned off.

 

I don't guess it will if people keeps ripping them to pieces.

How would you like to be down & everyone keeps knocking you back down never letting you get back up?

And how can anyone know that unless they were setting in that church knowing 1st hand?

 

One thing when writing about that pastor & that church one will get many hits from the search engines, because there will be many people searching for that church & that pastor.

 

 

With all of that said, Jesus is better at taking care of such problem than us, & when He does there will be no mistakes! Sad, there's some that seems to think they must take care of the job given Jesus by the Father.

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I think the main point Cloud is trying to make, is that it doesn't matter who comes in to pastor the church, util the underlying problem is accepted by that church, it will never be fixed. The Jack schaap incident was only a symptom of deeper problems and as long as that church and other pastors speaking there, and the church as a whole, refuse to acknowledge it, it won't be fixed. And as long as such an influential church doesn't deal with the problems, others should be warned off.

Most all who know anything about this already understand this. At this point it would seem it's time for encouraging a new pastor in a tough assignment. Give this pastor some time to see how he handles this church and see how the congregation responds.

 

Now doesn't seem to be the right time to raise this matter yet again, but rather a time to see if restoration can and will occur under the new pastor. Give this pastor some time and a chance to work with this church and see how the congregation responds and then evaluate the situation.

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When FBC admits and forsakes the sins and heresies of its former leaders, than those of us who point out the errors will quit "ripping" on them. Just because they are independent Baptist don't mean I would treat them any differently than I do the RCC or any heretical denomination.

 

Waiting for the current pastor to "fix" the problems and giving him time to do so while remaining quiet is like telling a new restaurant owner we'll wait and see if you throw out all the rotten food and get rid of the rats in the closet before we eat at your restaurant. I don't care if the new owner is a top-notch chef, I'm neither eating at that restaurant, nor recommending it as a safe dining establishment to others until all of the unhealthy practices are addressed, the mold is eradicated, the infestation is cured, and the food is safe for consumption.

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When FBC admits and forsakes the sins and heresies of its former leaders, than those of us who point out the errors will quit "ripping" on them. Just because they are independent Baptist don't mean I would treat them any differently than I do the RCC or any heretical denomination.

 

Waiting for the current pastor to "fix" the problems and giving him time to do so while remaining quiet is like telling a new restaurant owner we'll wait and see if you throw out all the rotten food and get rid of the rats in the closet before we eat at your restaurant. I don't care if the new owner is a top-notch chef, I'm neither eating at that restaurant, nor recommending it as a safe dining establishment to others until all of the unhealthy practices are addressed, the mold is eradicated, the infestation is cured, and the food is safe for consumption.

Does everyone who attends FBC have to make a public statement about this? How do we know what the congregation or board or committees have said to the new pastor or what they plan to say or do now?

 

At a time when a new pastor is taking over, and some pastors give him encouragement, that's not the time to say those pastors should have raised other issues. We don't know they haven't done so in private.

 

Until we see the course this new pastor and church take we don't know what's in their hearts regardless of the words expressed.

 

It's not like dozens of folks haven't pointed out issues constantly for a long time already. We should be hoping for restoration and granting that church the room to make that choice.

 

All those previous warnings are still out there and anyone who knows anything about this already knows all this. Why not give this new pastor the opportunity to work with this church and see what happens? If the new pastor sets this church on the right path, great! If not, there will be opportunity to point that out in the future.

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When FBC admits and forsakes the sins and heresies of its former leaders, than those of us who point out the errors will quit "ripping" on them. Just because they are independent Baptist don't mean I would treat them any differently than I do the RCC or any heretical denomination.

Waiting for the current pastor to "fix" the problems and giving him time to do so while remaining quiet is like telling a new restaurant owner we'll wait and see if you throw out all the rotten food and get rid of the rats in the closet before we eat at your restaurant. I don't care if the new owner is a top-notch chef, I'm neither eating at that restaurant, nor recommending it as a safe dining establishment to others until all of the unhealthy practices are addressed, the mold is eradicated, the infestation is cured, and the food is safe for consumption.

Using your illustration - everyone knows the restraint was a health hazard.
They get a new chef with a known reputation.
Wouldn't you expect the.new chef to simply stop the bad practices and implement healthy practice?
Would he have to make a public statement that he was going to do that?

It might be smart to, but it would not be necessary.

And if other chefs made statements saying that he was a top chef with high standards, would you berate them for it?

I agree entirely that error needs to be exposed, but the feed (I still haven't read the entire article) contains quotes from men who have congratulated THE NEW PASTOR and expressed sentiments that encourage him to take this church forward.

I did not read in any of those quote where any of these men condoned or supported the previous actions of the leadership of this church.

Edited at this point to make sure that James knows from here the points are general and not directed at him personally nor addressing the above quote.

I have no beef with David Cloud - I think he should be shown great respect for his faithful service to the Lord.
I think his angle on this is wrong.

Personally, I think there is way too much attacking good men who preach straight for what are often incidental issues.
Such as an OPINION that a man's warning ministry is too negative, or an OPINION that a man's music is wrong.

Often the men who are criticised in this area of the forum particularly, are good men with a heart to see souls saved y the Bible Gospel way of faith in Jesus Christ.
Matters of opinion as to side issues should far more often be kept to yourself. Edited by DaveW

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Does everyone who attends FBC have to make a public statement about this? How do we know what the congregation or board or committees have said to the new pastor or what they plan to say or do now?

 

At a time when a new pastor is taking over, and some pastors give him encouragement, that's not the time to say those pastors should have raised other issues. We don't know they haven't done so in private.

 

Until we see the course this new pastor and church take we don't know what's in their hearts regardless of the words expressed.

 

It's not like dozens of folks haven't pointed out issues constantly for a long time already. We should be hoping for restoration and granting that church the room to make that choice.

 

All those previous warnings are still out there and anyone who knows anything about this already knows all this. Why not give this new pastor the opportunity to work with this church and see what happens? If the new pastor sets this church on the right path, great! If not, there will be opportunity to point that out in the future.

 

No, they do not have to confess to any of us, they only confess to God though Christ Jesus.

 

its a very popular well know church, plus its popular well known pastors, & if you write about them on your internet website you will probably generate much traffic.

 

They need to stop picking on them, & pray for them.

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Using your illustration - everyone knows the restraint was a health hazard.
They get a new chef with a known reputation.
Wouldn't you expect the.new chef to simply stop the bad practices and implement healthy practice?
Would he have to make a public statement that he was going to do that?

It might be smart to, but it would not be necessary.

And if other chefs made statements saying that he was a top chef with high standards, would you berate them for it?

I agree entirely that error needs to be exposed, but the feed (I still haven't read the entire article) contains quotes from men who have congratulated THE NEW PASTOR and expressed sentiments that encourage him to take this church forward.

I did not read in any of those quote where any of these men condoned or supported the previous actions of the leadership of this church.

Edited at this point to make sure that James knows from here the points are general and not directed at him personally nor addressing the above quote.

I have no beef with David Cloud - I think he should be shown great respect for his faithful service to the Lord.
I think his angle on this is wrong.

Personally, I think there is way too much attacking good men who preach straight for what are often incidental issues.
Such as an OPINION that a man's warning ministry is too negative, or an OPINION that a man's music is wrong.

Often the men who are criticised in this area of the forum particularly, are good men with a heart to see souls saved y the Bible Gospel way of faith in Jesus Christ.
Matters of opinion as to side issues should far more often be kept to yourself.

 

I guess the point was, he wants churches to be run like restaurants. Yet, churches are not restaurants, nor should they be run like restaurants, the guide for a New Testament Church is within the pages of the Bible.

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I guess the point was, he wants churches to be run like restaurants. Yet, churches are not restaurants, nor should they be run like restaurants, the guide for a New Testament Church is within the pages of the Bible.

No, I think that's a bit harsh - it was an illustration, and not a bad one.

In his illustration you would certainly want to see some evidence of a change from the new chef before you ate there.

But I don't agree that the new chef has to come out and condemn the old chef continually - or even at all.
If the chef had a reputation for "cleaning up" restaurants, then it would simply be expected that he would do the right job.
;) Edited by DaveW

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What I would like to know from the former Hyles church is what is there plan for making sure it doesn't happen again? Even with a new preacher if his (Hyles) incorrect teachings are still taught and former groupies still attend the church then there needs to be a new set of checks and balances monitored by those who were not in the last administrations cabinet. And that they ARE NOT related to those in power, covering for family members is so common and it's so obvious. Since this church was sooo big and influential along with the college, the public is looking not for just an apology but a plan to make sure that much horror and error never occur again. Some Christians can accept an apology and move on but WAY TOO MANY innocent people were abused and it was continually covered! Yes, we can pray that the new preacher is a new beginning for the church but you can't just bury years and years of THAT in a few months time and expect everybody to hop on board without knowing there are steps in place to make sure it doesn't happen again and is contained like the horror show it was!

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Using your illustration - everyone knows the restraint was a health hazard.
They get a new chef with a known reputation.
Wouldn't you expect the.new chef to simply stop the bad practices and implement healthy practice?
Would he have to make a public statement that he was going to do that?

It might be smart to, but it would not be necessary.

And if other chefs made statements saying that he was a top chef with high standards, would you berate them for it?

I agree entirely that error needs to be exposed, but the feed (I still haven't read the entire article) contains quotes from men who have congratulated THE NEW PASTOR and expressed sentiments that encourage him to take this church forward.

I did not read in any of those quote where any of these men condoned or supported the previous actions of the leadership of this church.


*********************

 

 

1. We are assuming that everyone knows there is a health hazard there. That would be akin to assuming that everyone knows their Bible well enough to know the difference, and the proof in the pudding is that they either didn't know the Bible well enough to recognize the errors or sinful traits, or they did know and just didn't care enough to confront.

 

2. Yes I would expect the chef to implement healthy practices and would be delighted that they hired Gordon Ramsey. But expectations also demand some sort of evidence of progress. I can expect all I want, and although I agree that there should be a cushion of time to meet expectations, there should be some signs that progress is being made other than simply hiring a new chef. If my spritual health is at risk, I am not simply going to wait until the chef says he has a clean bill of health, I want to inspect the restaurant for myself and would check on the progress. 

 

Jack Schaap was fired in July of 2012. They did not replace Schaap for several months and never publicly denounced his heresies and even banned the victim and her family from the church in his case. Furthermore, there is yet the events surrounding Hyles and his son's actions that they have had YEARS to address.

 

And the comment made that "maybe they discussed it in private" is afoul of the Biblical standard for 'them that sin rebuke BEFORE ALL". The Bible doesn't say discuss it in a private board meeting. That's not directed at you Dave.

 

3. Would he have to make a public statement? Yes. How else would the public know that it's safe to come back?

 

The other thing about this issue is that there were/have been several victims in this. If someone died or was severely injured in the restaurant, and the new owner took over and conducted business as usual without ever attempting to make amends or addressing the horrors the victims suffered, I would have very little confidence that the same actions would not be repeated. These actions were seen publicly, and have affected churches on an international level, and they need to be addressed publicly.

 

Here is just a small example of one such missionary group that has at least made some effort. ABWE is being investigated by GRACE (and I have issues with GRACE so this is not an endorsement of that group) and ABWE has posted the following measures that it has taken to not only apologize for what has occurred under their watch, but what they are doing to make it right

 

http://www.abwe.org/protecting-our-children/

 

ABWE has a point-by-point question and answer section and explanation of what they are doing. That is a good place to start. And while there is still some controversy against them, I would defend them 100x more than I would FBC because this is 100x more than what FBC has done.

 

I don't think David Cloud is saying that the men he quoted are condoning the actions of FBC per say. I think he is implying a tacit admission without a demand for accountability from FBC. 

 

I WANT to see FBC do the right thing and get to the business of winning people to Christ and encourage its members to live productive lives for God. But there is something about having a good name (Prov 22:1) that aids in the credibility necessary to have people listen to what you have to say:

 

"In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you." Titus 2:8

 

 

The Bible has quite a bit to say about controlling your behavior so that the ministry is not blamed and the word of God not blasphemed (Titus 2:5, 2 Cor 6:3, 2 Sam 12:10 "Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme"). When the ministry is blamed, and the word of God blasphemed because those expected to uphold it either perpetrated it, or allowed it by remaining silent, then before any new leader brings his gifts to the alter, he needs to go make right with his brothers, hold his staff and members accountable, address the issues publicly and THEN I believe God will move that church in a direction that can not be criticized. 

 

The enemies of the church who are set against Christ no matter will never be satisfied. But doing the above will at least take away the argument that those who reject FBC do so on the grounds of its unrepentant attitude towards its errors and crimes.

 

And I don't need "traffic at my website". My audience are primarily Baptists and writing negatively about an influential leader DECREASES your readership, it certainly doesn't increase it. I don't sell books or articles and there is no Pay Pal donation tab on my site. I don't need money and have never solicited for funds on my site or anywhere else.

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As to point 1 - that has been rightly taken care of - it has been exposed and made public.

Point 2 - agree.

Point 3 - it has been announced by many others that this "restaurant" is under new management - I don't think he does have to make a big fuss - but in any case, that is not really the argument here.

The biggest thing is what happens from here - a lot of people would say "it just more talk" if he announced his intentions. He has to prove BY ACTIONS AND RESULTS what he is about. (your point 2, I think).

I still think David Cloud in this instance is implying a little too much.
That is my opinion, and others will read it differently.

I certainly think those who have turned in into a DC attack should back off. Just as I don't think he should be condemning the men quoted for supporting the new pastor, I don't think he should be condemned for stating the warning.

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Some of the brethren need to look into the sin of implacability (Romans 1:31) because that's what's being manifest here. Nothing that First Baptist will ever do will satisfy some Christians. 

You're absolutely right. And if one of my family members were one of the many victims, you can guarantee it! Sins may be forgiven by humans, but never forgotten! And that is what some people think should happen is just forgive and forget and move on. Only God has that capability!

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You're absolutely right. And if one of my family members were one of the many victims, you can guarantee it! Sins may be forgiven by humans, but never forgotten! And that is what some people think should happen is just forgive and forget and move on. Only God has that capability!

I don't think you understand what "implacable" means.

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Oh year - I don't think Gordon Ramsay is a good name to use - that foulmouthed celebrity chef should be banned from everywhere. ;)

Yeah you got me on that one. I don't have a TV and don't watch it anywhere else and that's the only chef name I knew of.

 

 

And to Song and the other critics, this debate is pointless because you don't get it. You do it your way, I'll do it God's.

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has anyone considered that maybe the girl is not so innocent?  Young girls nowadays are different than years ago, if you have trouble believing this, try finding an honest school bus driver, they would tell you things that would blow your mind.  I know she was under age (whatever that is), but she may have had in mind seducing Jack Schaap, what a "trophy" that would be!  Men, you need to be careful, especially leaders, you could be a target. 

 

With that said, I do not, in any way, justify bro Schaap, he deserves what he gets, but then most of us deserve the same thing!  have any of you ever lusted after a woman other than your wife?  If you are honest, MOST of you will admit it to yourself, at least.  If you have, your just as guilty as Jack Shaap, no matter what the law sets for "legal" age! 

 

I agree with DrJamesA on this one thing, this entire argument is futile, because we believe what we believe, and we all think we are believing, and doing, what is right.

 

Just a few thoughts to ponder.

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Well, perhaps with how public this has all been, and again, knowing the influence they have, a public statement, at least as a public stand against Schaap might not be a bad idea. They will want other churches to know that their kids at the college will be kept from error, that their preaching and pastor's schools, should they continue them, will be closely-monitored and biblical. Really, because of their far reach and all that has happened, a public statement would be a good idea. It would show they recognize something went wrong and steps are being made to fix it.

 

  Honestly, my church is tiny, in a tniy town that people 50 miles away don't even know exists; I have no influence over any other ggroup, no one wants to send their youth to my college, since I don;t have one. My influence remains here in Herlong.  Yet, if I had come here to take over after the former pastor fell into such a public sin, I wuld make a public statement, at east to my own community, of my intention to turn things around. I don't have to acknowledge any sin of my own, but I WOULD feel compelled to let people know that I was aware of the problem, and it was going to be fixed. I would think the new pastor of a church embroiled in such controversy, with a former pastor so publicly fallen, would find it wise to let people know things will change, because if not, it will seriously hurt theirt ability to do their work for the Lord. Yes, the faithful may remain faithful, but what about their outreach in ther area? Do they think no one knows? Will anyone trust them to go and visit?

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has anyone considered that maybe the girl is not so innocent?  Young girls nowadays are different than years ago, if you have trouble believing this, try finding an honest school bus driver, they would tell you things that would blow your mind.  I know she was under age (whatever that is), but she may have had in mind seducing Jack Schaap, what a "trophy" that would be!  Men, you need to be careful, especially leaders, you could be a target. 

 

With that said, I do not, in any way, justify bro Schaap, he deserves what he gets, but then most of us deserve the same thing!  have any of you ever lusted after a woman other than your wife?  If you are honest, MOST of you will admit it to yourself, at least.  If you have, your just as guilty as Jack Shaap, no matter what the law sets for "legal" age! 

 

I agree with DrJamesA on this one thing, this entire argument is futile, because we believe what we believe, and we all think we are believing, and doing, what is right.

 

Just a few thoughts to ponder.

Seriously? So, the 16-year-old hussy with all the sophisticated guile of that great experience, bewithced and befuddled the poor, innocent preacher of what, 50-some years old, in the ministry as the pastor here for 11, 12 years?

 

I have to say that if this was the scenario, then Schaap deserve's exactly what happened-if a man of that age, with his experience, can't fight off the advances of a 16 year-old girl, he shouldn't be in the pulpit anyways. To lust  is human-but we seek forgiveness and turn away, ideally. What man, pastor or otherwise, has not, even briefly, entertained an impure thought for a woman? The difference is, Schaap clearly thought he could get away with it, and that idea had to come from somewhere, and I expect it was from experience from his mentor. And remember, it was not adultery that Christ said would make divorce acceptable, but fornication, which is acting on the adultery of the heart.

 

However, you apparently didn't read all the texts and messages that were revealed, which Schaap had sent the girl, how in his counselling sessions he manipulated her, and was clearlty driving her to exactly where he went with her eventually.

Edited by Ukulelemike

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Allow me, now, after all this, to concede a point:

 

   I think, perhaps, it is not necessary to castigate all the pastors who went there to encourage the new pastor at FBCHI-I am certain they all hope and pray that things will change, perhaps to also encourage the church as a whole to the same. 

 

I know, at least one of these pastors, I'll not say which, has been in those shoes, as he becamse the pastor after his pastor was arrested for molesting a young girl. I am not sure how he proceeded, but I know, from his testimony about it, that, rather than taking older men's advice and closing the church due to the stigma, he decided that it was not for him to close ro keep open, but the Lord, since it was HIS church. And his church grew, after losing basically very member over the issue, (unlkie FBCHI), and it has prospered greatly since, and does much for the Lord. 

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The court records painted an entirely different picture of the victim than what many thought. I too believe that teenagers should be held accountable for their actions, but this girl was in a far more vulnerable situation. If that had been MY 16 year old daughter, he may not have made it to the court room. And if that offends anyone, forgive and forget and move on :)

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