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Way Of Life - Ignoring The Sin Of First Baptist Of Hammond

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In February a group of prominent independent Baptist pastors produced a video praising First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana, and giving their unqualified blessing to the church and the ministry of the new pastor, John Wilkerson. These pastors include the heads of the two largest IFB schools: Clarence Sexton on the east coast and Paul Chappell on the west coast.

The following are excerpts from the video “Congratulations From Our Friends” that was shown at First Baptist Church, Hammond, Sunday morning, February 17, 2013:

Jack Trieber, North Valley Baptist Church, Santa Clara, California
“[Pastor and Mrs. Wilkerson] are incredible people ... GREAT MAN of God ... To the members, I want to thank you for walking with God ... We love First Baptist Hammond. ... We believe the greatest days could yet be ahead.”

Clarence Sexton, Temple Baptist Church, Powell, Tennessee
“We are excited about First Baptist Church of Hammond ... I didn’t think [Wilkerson] would leave that GREAT CHURCH that he pastored. ... I’m excited for you and praying for you. I want you to know that you have friends in Knoxville, Tennessee. ... Keep working together for the glory of God. ... May the greatest days for First Baptist Church of Hammond be the days that lie ahead.”

Pastor Warren Johnson, Grace Baptist Church, Flower Mound, Texas
“My how excited we are to watch and see what the Lord is going to do in the months and years that lie ahead. ...  Congratulations on this historic Sunday.

Paul Chappell, Lancaster Baptist Church, Lancaster, California
“I want to take this opportunity to congratulate Mr. and Mrs. Wilkerson and your family as you begin ministry at the First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana, and I want to congratulate the church, as well. ... I want to encourage you to stand together with your pastor and to strive together for the faith of the gospel. Congratulations.”

Pastor Doug Fisher, Lighthouse Baptist Church, San Diego, California
“I want to congratulate Pastor and Mrs. Wilkerson and First Baptist Church of Hammond for their recent decisions. Many, many people in our country are excited about what God is doing there at First Baptist. ... Congratulations. We look forward to what God is going to do in the future. ... I’m excited. Our church is very excited.”

Pastor Ezequiel Salazar, Montecito Baptist Church, Montecito, California
“I’m thrilled for the First Baptist Church of Hammond. ... I really believe the best days for First Baptist are ahead.”

R.B. Ouellette, First Baptist Church of Bridgeport, Bridgeport, Michigan
“Congratulations Brother Wilkerson. When I heard that God had called you to First Baptist Church of Hammond, I was thrilled. Every day I pray at the same time I used to pray for Dr. Hyles ... and since I heard you were going there I began to pray for you as well. I’m so glad that you have been entrusted with the leadership of a place that has had so much happen, so many things of historic importance for independent fundamental Baptists.”

Pastor Johnny Pope, Christ Church Baptist Fellowship, Houston, Texas
“We believe that First Baptist Church of Hammond is still one of the GREATEST CHURCHES in the whole wide world and now you have one of the GREATEST PASTORS in the whole wide world. ... First Baptist is blessed to have you [John], but it is win, win. I believe that you are blessed to have First Baptist. .... Have a great Lord’s Day on this welcoming day for Pastor Wilkerson. Yes!!!”



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Although, I can't say that I can agree with everything from Dr. Cloud, I will have to agree with this article fully, he did in fact hit the nail on the head. I remember my dad, who was a pastor, publically denoucing Hyles and the regime for allowing themselves to be put up on a pedestal. In fact, in 1975 the church that he and I  was both saved in,and we as a family were members of, completely shunned him when he announced that he was not going to be attending Hyles-Anderson College to study for the ministry. He knew that God was leading him to go to Liberty Bible Institute/Liberty Baptist College, now the liberal and might as well be secular Liberty University. For those of you who are too young to remember, Liberty was a great school back in the day.

In fact, it wasn't until the day that we were moving to Lynchburg that he was 100% positive that it was the right decision. Back in those days you had to send away for a catalog from the school that you were looking at. My dad had requested catalogs from every Bible college great and small to help him make a decision. In the time that he requested them to the day that we moved, he received only one catalog......the one to Liberty. The day that we moved all of the others came in the mail......at one time!!

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So what do you want? You want the church completely shut down and everyone in the church jailed? There are some great men of God on that list and I don't believe they are trying to justify anything First Baptist has allowed in the past. The good First Baptist has done definitely outweighs any bad committed IMO. It's time for restoration of this church not this continual bashing that goes on which, IMO, is disingenuous to begin with.

 

"Love covers a multitude of sins." 

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I fail to see what good it would do for these pastors to dip back into the past and make a YouTube video condemning all the sins one can find over the decades. For the most part these sins, especially the public ones, have already been condemned by many. At a time a church is changing leadership and trying to set the church on the right path, it's not the time to rehash the past which has already been addressed. While I don't necessarily agree with the wording of all the statements various preachers made, I do believe their attempt to encourage the new pastor and the church is the right approach at this time.

 

Let's hope the new pastor will be the biblical pastor that church needs and the congregation will rightly respond. It's time to move on.

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I don't know their intentions, yet perhaps they're supporting them with love at this time, trying to help them recover from what has taken place.

 

One thing, if a brother falls your not to keep kicking him so that he cannot get back up, we are not to be bullies.  You know, beating the dead horse after he has died.

 

I say that although some of those on that list are more liberal teaching than I care for, & some of them I know nothing about.

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Is the article condemning them for encouraging a new preacher in a strange place and pulpit?  Shame on him.  I agree with  ASongOfDegrees on this one.

 

This is an instant when he could have used his time much better on some other project, issue. And I think it shows he has a personal vendetta against First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana & the churches encouraging them. Yes, it would have been much better for the Christian community to had left this unsaid.

 

This is a line that people can easily cross the line on when they get involved in issues such as this. And that is the main thing I have against such sites that dwells on such issues as this. Not that its wrong to discuss such issues that has taken place at that church, yet we can carry the discussion way to far, them it hurts more than it helps.

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Just reading the quotes in the feed (not the full article), I don't see many of these guys supporting what the church was.
Their statements appear to be, on the whole, encouraging this new preacher in pulling them out of the mire that was.

That encouragement and support is commendable, assuming it does not extend further to supporting what was there before.

It should be a point of rejoicing if they have appointed a man who will sort out and throw out the wrong that has in the past been going on.

I know nothing of the man appointed by the way.

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Folks are missing the entire point of what David Cloud is trying to accomplish. It has nothing to do with "beating a dead horse" because that horse isn't dead.

As I've stated before, Baptists don't criticize other Baptists for continuing to speak negatively about men like John Calvin even though he's been dead for over 400 years. His influence still permeates many fields of theology just as Jack Hyles and Jack Schaap still influence other churches.

 

There are gross errors that were practiced by the 2 Jacks and FBC has yet to ever renounce those errors and other churches and teachers still practice and promote them. Consider what has happened in several churches because FBC and other leaders would not step up and renounce the sins associated with their church:

 

*David Hyles was KNOWN to have numerous affairs and was shuffled from church to church in authority holding positions. This was not only not addressed publicly by FBC nor Hyles, but is a factor that needed to be considered for the qualifications of a pastor. 1 Tim 3:4. 

In addition to the affairs (at least 19 known), there is the mysterious death of Brent Stevens, the 15 month old son of David's second wife, Brenda. The case has been ruled a homocide with David as the primary suspect but evidence was lost. David had a chance to explain the matter and pleaded the fifth and Brenda was a no-show at the inquiry. After that, Brenda ran over David and Brenda's natural son, David Jack Hyles killing him.

 

FBC has never demanded accountability from him and the entire matter has been swept under the rug for years.

 

*Mack Ford is being accepted in speaking engagements at several other IFB churches (i.e. Berean Baptist Church) and Mack Ford was known to have raped and tortured several minor girls in the New Bethany Children's Home. Not only is he still welcomed in the churches, he has simply followed the lead of the example his mentors at FBC have set.

 

*Mark Chappel was a pastor at the former church that John Wilkerson pastored at, and Mark Chappell was fired over affairs and at least one known case of sexual conduct with a minor. I personally wrote to the church and the response I got was that "it MAY have been sin, but the secretary did not keep records of it" Who keeps records of their sexual activities? 
Mark Chappel is still pastoring at a church in Arizona.

 

There are numerous examples like this and FBC publicly addressed the issue over Jack Schaap which I believe they did the right thing, but they were virtually forced to do so. Yet they have still not addressed the heresies taught by Schaap and publicly stated that those heresies are not what FBC teaches or believes and some are even recommending Schaap's books, and many other churches that were started by FBC/HAC ministers still follow some of the same patterns of Hyles and Schaap, and if FBC does not step up and renounce those sins, other churches are going to continue to follow suit in those sins and it will cause more harm to the body of Christ by continuing to ignore it, than calling them out and stepping on some toes and hurting some feelings along the way.

 

Folks seems to be more concerned about the reputation of a leader and church than they are about doing the right thing for Christ. The entire article that Cloud wrote shows exactly why this issue needs to be address because it is giving the enemies of the church occasion to blaspheme God.

 

I am all for seeing FBC move forward and be productive for Christ, but there are some major issues that need to be addressed, and if they are not, then FBC is going to operate like a cult and the sins of Hyles and Schaap will continue in the lives of others and ruin more lives and churches.

 

And the accusation that myself or Cloud are websites that do nothing but attack this church is ridiculous. David Cloud has written books and articles from everything from all the major doctrines of the Bible to apologetics, history, and archaeology. Yet when he or I write something folks don't agree with, all of a sudden we are ONLY writing about ONE subject. That's a cop-out and a very weak and lame accusation. 

Edited by DrJamesA

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Just reading the quotes in the feed (not the full article), I don't see many of these guys supporting what the church was.
Their statements appear to be, on the whole, encouraging this new preacher in pulling them out of the mire that was.

That encouragement and support is commendable, assuming it does not extend further to supporting what was there before.

It should be a point of rejoicing if they have appointed a man who will sort out and throw out the wrong that has in the past been going on.

I know nothing of the man appointed by the way.

 

Amen & amen.

 

Yet it seems at time some of our conservative brothers gets nick-picking with our liberal brethren seemingly trying to find things to criticize them about when its not there. 

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Folks are missing the entire point of what David Cloud is trying to accomplish. It has nothing to do with "beating a dead horse" because that horse isn't dead.

As I've stated before, Baptists don't criticize other Baptists for continuing to speak negatively about men like John Calvin even though he's been dead for over 400 years. His influence still permeates many fields of theology just as Jack Hyles and Jack Schaap still influence other churches.

 

Many speak of "gross error" taught by Dr. Hyles, but few list them.  Is this bcause they are passing along gossip heard from scorners and reprobates?

 

 

There are gross errors that were practiced by the 2 Jacks and FBC has yet to ever renounce those errors and other churches and teachers still practice and promote them. Consider what has happened in several churches because FBC and other leaders would not step up and renounce the sins associated with their church:

 

I wonder if you expose your dirty laundry?  A "cover up" is sometimes to protect others in the ministry, and the ministry itself. 

 

*David Hyles was KNOWN to have numerous affairs and was shuffled from church to church in authority holding positions. This was not only not addressed publicly by FBC nor Hyles, but is a factor that needed to be considered for the qualifications of a pastor. 1 Tim 3:4. 

In addition to the affairs (at least 19 known), there is the mysterious death of Brent Stevens, the 15 month old son of David's second wife, Brenda. The case has been ruled a homocide with David as the primary suspect but evidence was lost. David had a chance to explain the matter and pleaded the fifth and Brenda was a no-show at the inquiry. After that, Brenda ran over David and Brenda's natural son, David Jack Hyles killing him.

 

The inference here is that the church teaches infidelity, and encourages adulterous relationships which is ridicules.  For one thing, that sort of teaching would have been exposed years ago, and some good, sincere Christians would have taken a stand.  Mr. Cloud (and I refrain from the term "Pastor" or "brother") seems to like to criticize the bad at First Baptist, and ignore all the good they have done for years through soul winning and bus ministries.  Men like Curtis Hutson were influenced to win souls at First Baptist.

 

FBC has never demanded accountability from him and the entire matter has been swept under the rug for years.

 

*Mack Ford is being accepted in speaking engagements at several other IFB churches (i.e. Berean Baptist Church) and Mack Ford was known to have raped and tortured several minor girls in the New Bethany Children's Home. Not only is he still welcomed in the churches, he has simply followed the lead of the example his mentors at FBC have set.

 

Proving accusations about fireball preachers is not easy.  Many of them have proven false, as with Bro Winegar before he moved to Georgia.   All of us know that Satan is going to raise antagonists against God's people and attempt to destroy their influence, thereby getting the victory over the churches that once stood for something.  This is kindergarten stuff!

 

*Mark Chappel was a pastor at the former church that John Wilkerson pastored at, and Mark Chappell was fired over affairs and at least one known case of sexual conduct with a minor. I personally wrote to the church and the response I got was that "it MAY have been sin, but the secretary did not keep records of it" Who keeps records of their sexual activities? 
Mark Chappel is still pastoring at a church in Arizona.

 

The question is a valid one?  Why not forget it and move on?  Hanging on to it does nothing for the ministry that may recoup itself without all the loud clamoring against themDo you know any churches that record sexual activity og its members?  I should hope not.

 

There are numerous examples like this and FBC publicly addressed the issue over Jack Schaap which I believe they did the right thing, but they were virtually forced to do so. Yet they have still not addressed the heresies taught by Schaap and publicly stated that those heresies are not what FBC teaches or believes and some are even recommending Schaap's books, and many other churches that were started by FBC/HAC ministers still follow some of the same patterns of Hyles and Schaap, and if FBC does not step up and renounce those sins, other churches are going to continue to follow suit in those sins and it will cause more harm to the body of Christ by continuing to ignore it, than calling them out and stepping on some toes and hurting some feelings along the way.

 

I do not have a comment for bro. Schaaps actions, they are unjustifiable, but to throw everyone in the same tub, that I question.

 

Folks seems to be more concerned about the reputation of a leader and church than they are about doing the right thing for Christ. The entire article that Cloud wrote shows exactly why this issue needs to be address because it is giving the enemies of the church occasion to blaspheme God.

 

I would like to see Mr. Cloud's dirty laundry, that might be a sight to behold!  It's easy to throw stones when they are not coming your way too.

 

 

I am all for seeing FBC move forward and be productive for Christ, but there are some major issues that need to be addressed, and if they are not, then FBC is going to operate like a cult and the sins of Hyles and Schaap will continue in the lives of others and ruin more lives and churches.

 

Who's to say they will not be addressed?  You? Me?  I think not.  Neither is Mr. Cloud qualified to predict the future.

 

And the accusation that myself or Cloud are websites that do nothing but attack this church is ridiculous. David Cloud has written books and articles from everything from all the major doctrines of the Bible to apologetics, history, and archaeology. Yet when he or I write something folks don't agree with, all of a sudden we are ONLY writing about ONE subject. That's a cop-out and a very weak and lame accusation. 

 

Well, "cop-outs" come in many forms, as well as vendetta's.  How will you be benefited if you critique those at FBC?  How is anyone benefitted?  They may leave the church, but I happen to know that there are not a lot of good churches in the area.

 

It is not ridicules to realize that Mr. Cloud is a raincloud, without the silver lining.  If he spent as much time ministering to his flock as he does trashing other ministries (and by the way, FBC is not the only one he trashes) then he too could be thought of as a great influence and a true man of God, and maybe even make a real difference in this old world.

 

I must say, I have lost a lot of respect for you Mr. JamesA, I hope it can be restored.  Please don't look into my background, you may be shocked by what you see.  Were it not for the grace of God this could have been you Mr. Cloud is writing about.

 

Dr. James A,

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Irishman,

 

Without responding to all of the blithering you just posted, two points really stood out that truly will never cause me to lose a minute sleep over anyone that loses respect for me that holds to such mischievous logic:

 

* "A "cover up" is sometimes to protect others in the ministry, and the ministry itself. "

 

Scripture and verse please. And please don't misquote "love covereth a multitude of sins". Show me where in the Bible someone's sin was covered up, ignored, and the church moved on to "protect the ministry". The whole point of rebuking sin publicly is that "OTHERS may fear also".1Tim 5:20. 

 

The question is a valid one?  Why not forget it and move on?  Hanging on to it does nothing for the ministry that may recoup itself without all the loud clamoring against them.  Do you know any churches that record sexual activity og its members?  I should hope not

 

Did Paul tell the church at Corinth "ah just forget about that man's sin with his mother law and move on, you'll hurt the ministry if you keep talking about it"? 1 Cor 5:1-2

When I quoted their deacon saying that they don't keep records of sexual activities, that was HIS reason for not believing it EVEN THOUGH CHAPPELL WAS FIRED FOR IT AND ADMITTED IT. I have a letter from the former pastor (Pastor Bish) of that church that knew about it whom had to set up counseling for his victims. Of course nobody keeps records, but you're missing the point, that was the EXCUSE used for not exercising discipline for this man's sins.

 

So now sin is OK as long as you don't get caught? If that's true, than "be sure your sin WILL FIND YOU OUT" has absolutely no meaning to it. Numb 32:23. So the passing of time exonerates sin? Wow, Israel should try that excuse with God. "Hey God, what's up with that Jacobs Trouble deal, that was 2000 years ago, you should just 'move on'".

 

And to assume that I believe everything that critics say is complete ignorance. Anyone that has read anything I've written about the anti-fundamentalist crowds and "do right" groups would know better. But the fact is there are documented cases of crimes and abuse that are not being addressed in a large part of fundamentalist churches because they have the same attitude you have.

 

I certainly hope that nothing like that ever happens to your son or daughter because I'd really feel sorry for the person(s) that tell you to "move on". I am a fundamental Baptist and make no apologies for it, but there is a growing cancer among IFB churches and part of the reason it is still growing is because of lackadaisical and apathetic attitudes towards it that include the excuses you just gave.

 

When FBC and other churches have done the right thing, I have supported them and congratulated them for it. I have defended John Wilkerson publicly on many occasions and wrote an article that set the record straight on accusations against FBC staff on how the Schaap ordeal was being described in the media. But the fact still remains that people are willing to worship a man and defend a ministry that is plagued with corruption and abuse more than they are willing to honor the Bible, and it has caused shame to all of the fundamental Baptist churches.

 

When such sins have a public affect, they need to be addressed publicly by the leadership by acknowledging and renouncing the sin publicly, make apologies and amends where they can be made and THEN move on. And frankly, some of the people that knew of these sins that sat on the stage week after week while heresy was spewed from the pulpit need to do the same or be fired. Chuck Phelps forced a girl who was raped to confess her "sin" in front of an entire church, and then shipped her off to another state while her perpetrator was held unaccountable (fortunately he was eventually arrested and convicted). If that was my daughter, I would personally drag the offender in front of the congregation and make him confess his crime, then call the cops, and pray that I don't get in the flesh in the mean time and beat him senseless.

 

This has become a common practice in the IFB and it needs to stop. Thank God that there are popular leaders such as David Cloud who are willing to be the Nathan that the IFB needs to stand up to some of these preachers and say "thou art the man". [And notice I said SOME because this isn't prevalent in all IFB churches].

 

The church doesn't gain credibility by covering up sins and crimes: "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy" Prov 28:13.

 

But hey, maybe you should can paste the following flyer handed out the HAC students into your Bible so you can have some kind of foundation to work from when telling other believers it's wrong to criticize someone in your own denomination:

 

LOYALTY TO LEADERSHIP - HYLES ANDERSON COLLEGE
1. ALWAYS THINK THE LEADER IS RIGHT. Never give your opinion when the leader feels strongly.
4. DON’T CORRECT THE LEADER ANYTIME! The people are better off hearing a wrong answer than to see the leader put down by a follower. I look at it as a putdown when a leader is corrected.
8. ALWAYS DO ANYTHING THE LEADER ASKS WHETHER IT IS RIGHT OR NOT. Why? a. I trust him to not ask me to do something immoral or sinful! b. If I do something I think will hurt someone, it is him who is responsible to God for it.
15. NEVER SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT THE LEADER. Not even in a joke.

 

And perhaps put it next to a picture of the brass IDOL that HAC has of Jack and Beverly Hyles in the middle of the college campus.

 

Hyles.jpg

Edited by DrJamesA

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LOYALTY TO LEADERSHIP - HYLES ANDERSON COLLEGE
1. ALWAYS THINK THE LEADER IS RIGHT. Never give your opinion when the leader feels strongly.
4. DON’T CORRECT THE LEADER ANYTIME! The people are better off hearing a wrong answer than to see the leader put down by a follower. I look at it as a putdown when a leader is corrected.
8. ALWAYS DO ANYTHING THE LEADER ASKS WHETHER IT IS RIGHT OR NOT. Why? a. I trust him to not ask me to do something immoral or sinful! b. If I do something I think will hurt someone, it is him who is responsible to God for it.
15. NEVER SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT THE LEADER. Not even in a joke.

 

Each of my three kids graduated from there, and I have never seen the so-called rules that you mention, and I shall see if they have.

 

As for the rest of your post, it's merely more of the same rhetoric.  How does it really warn people, they already should know that sin is wrong and adultery is sin, and can read that "Your sin will find you out".  I doubt that anyone feels edified by this trashy stuff. (I believe you attacked a man on this forum at one time too, and what came of that?)

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If the "church leaders" are rallying around the church family of FBC and are encouraging the new pastor, great!  That church family needs our prayers.

 

However, when the church itself is being exemplified, then it looks like a "good ol' boy" network.  What is missing? The denouncing of the sins and the doctrinal errors of the Schapps and the Hyles.  They are still being promoted as great men of God by these same leaders.  They don't have to make a long sermon out of the issues, but they should at least ackowledge them in a way that doesn't sound like they are making excuses for their sins. 

Edited by KAT

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Mark Chappell did pastor the First Baptist Church at Long Beach CA, and as mentioned, he is pastoring a church in AZ.

John Wilkerson was the pastor that replaced him at Long Beach. He did a great job at bringing some much needed healing to that church after such a scandal.

Im thinking that's why he was called to First Baptist, Hammond.

 

This issue has been beaten up a lot over at the  stuff fundies like blog. They revel at any chance they get when a pastor commits sin or does ANYTHING they disagree with.

 

Im praying that John Wilkerson will bring much needed healing and guidance to FBH.

 

My reading of what D. Cloud has written, and it is just the way I'M  reading it, is that David Cloud is thumping his chest, throwing stones and saying that he's not like those other publicans and sinners and is proud of it. Its not the first time David Cloud has does such, and wont be the last.

 

 

Dr. Roberson

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Mark Chappell did pastor the First Baptist Church at Long Beach CA, and as mentioned, he is pastoring a church in AZ.

John Wilkerson was the pastor that replaced him at Long Beach. He did a great job at bringing some much needed healing to that church after such a scandal.

Im thinking that's why he was called to First Baptist, Hammond.

 

This issue has been beaten up a lot over at the  stuff fundies like blog. They revel at any chance they get when a pastor commits sin or does ANYTHING they disagree with.

 

Im praying that John Wilkerson will bring much needed healing and guidance to FBH.

 

My reading of what D. Cloud has written, and it is just the way I'M  reading it, is that David Cloud is thumping his chest, throwing stones and saying that he's not like those other publicans and sinners and is proud of it. Its not the first time David Cloud has does such, and wont be the last.

 

 

Dr. Roberson

The first IFB church I attended was under Chappell at Long Beach First Baptist, back in the 80's, and its where I became IFB, and have never looked back. I only attended for about 8 months, as my ship was only there for a short time, in the yards, so I wasn't there when the scandal took place, and I don't even know what happened.

 

**EDIT: No, the pastor of FBCLB was LARRY Chappell, not Mark. I thought it didn't seem right in my head. But I know he did fall and leave the ministry.Just don't know the events surrounding it.

 

As for David Cloud, you know, I just don't see your take in his newsletter-I have been reading his stuff for a while, and while I find myself at odds with him from time to time, I have never read anything that I could see as being done in a poor spirit. Sadly, anyone who seeks to warn of error is often going to be seen as such-yet we are ALL called to warn of error and leaven, yet, none of us are perfect: do we then cease to preach the whole counsel of God, because we are not perfect? Sometimes Cloud can, perhaps, over-preach an issue, but it doesn't mean he is wrong, and obviously, there are still many who don't know and many who reject, so the issue still needs to be told, because many are still affected by it. We can choose to hear, or to forbear, but the truth must be published.

Edited by Ukulelemike

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Paul Chappell was not of the "Hyles crowd", at least they did not invite each other to their meetings.  Neither was Bro. Ouelette, and a few others that have been named.  They were not recommended by Hyles any more than Jim Vineyard was, and he wasn't even mentioned there.  have fun trashing and hiding behind the scriptures while your doing it "justly" but remember you too shall be taken to account some day, as well as me and all of us.

 

Expose error?  It has been exposed over and over again.  I "liked" Dr. Robersons post, and agree.  it's good to see that someone has a good spirit for once.

Edited by irishman

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Paul Chappell was not of the "Hyles crowd", at least they did not invite each other to their meetings.  Neither was Bro. Ouelette, and a few others that have been named.  They were not recommended by Hyles any more than Jim Vineyard was, and he wasn't even mentioned there.  have fun trashing and hiding behind the scriptures while your doing it "justly" but remember you too shall be taken to account some day, as well as me and all of us.

 

Expose error?  It has been exposed over and over again.  I "liked" Dr. Robersons post, and agree.  it's good to see that someone has a good spirit for once.

When the error continues to be far-reaching, it needs to be continued to be exposed. As was said earlier, we continue to expose error from such as Calvin, the Catholics and others, because it continues to be active-so Hyles' influence continues on. By the way, Pastor Fisher from San Diego was my pastor, but I still disagree with him in this.

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I don't know about Hyles personal life (I've read that his alleged affairs have never been proven) but I do know that as a newborn Christian his tapes helped me out a lot in my Christian walk. 

 

Very seldom do I hear anyone pouncing on John Calvin the man. It's his doctrines that people expose. Yet when it comes to Hyles and Schaap it's the man that gets pounced on. Also, Calvin is dead and gone. Here we have a church that needs to get back on track. Most of it's members probably just want to go to church to be edified in Christ and want no part of the church's internal wranglings. The constant berating doesn't help them.  I still believe, like Dr. Roberson, that most of this "concern" for First Baptist is disingenuous.

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Paul Chappell was not of the "Hyles crowd", at least they did not invite each other to their meetings.  Neither was Bro. Ouelette, and a few others that have been named.  They were not recommended by Hyles any more than Jim Vineyard was, and he wasn't even mentioned there.  have fun trashing and hiding behind the scriptures while your doing it "justly" but remember you too shall be taken to account some day, as well as me and all of us.

 

Expose error?  It has been exposed over and over again.  I "liked" Dr. Robersons post, and agree.  it's good to see that someone has a good spirit for once.

I'm not sure why but this thing with the list of preachers encouraging First Baptist reminds me of the time when Jack Hyles came out on a definite stand on the KJV and folks started calling him a "Ruckmanite".  Hyles had nothing to do with Peter Ruckman. He said he never even heard of him before.

 

Nobody has yet said what they want out of First Baptist. I've heard things like "they need to be called into account" and such but nobody has actually said how this should occur. Which, by the way, is really none of anyone's business how they take care of the matter other than the church itself. I suppose nobody will be happy until the whole church is closed and everyone jailed. Or maybe if they all crawled on their hands and knees while flogging themselves.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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I believe the main point here, is that the church, itself, has never been called into account for the fact that they allowed what happened, to happen. Until there is an actual acceptance, and repentance, of the church as a whole, those who for years idolized Hyles and considered him as close to deity upon earth as possible. Repentance of the men who stood and refused to hear any charge, any criticism against Hyles, even though the Bible lays out how it is to be done, who sheilded him and ignored his unbiblical demand that the people just ignore any seming impropriety or appearance of evil. The church is as guilty as Hyles, and unless this issue is dealt with, it won't matter who is brought in as pastor. If they have not repented of their allowance for sin because it was for the 'good of the church', (hogwash!), nothing will change.

 

As for Hyles, he absolutely still has influence, though dead, and a warning must still be sounded. Why do we think David Hyles did what he did, time and again? Why did Schaap think he could get away with what he did? Why do graduates of Hyles/Anderson seem to be guilty of the same tendency of making themselves masters of their churches and refusing to be answerable to their churches? These things don't happen in a vacuum, folks-its because they were all taught it by Mr, Hyles. David and Schaap learned that a pastor can do anything without fear of reprisal, that someone would always protect them, because that's what happened with Jack Hyles.

 

Most, probably all pastors, at one time or another, are tempted as Schaap was-Satan tempts men with sexual sin, because its the easiest to get us to fall to. Yet, a majority don't fall to it-why? I give three reasons-feel free to disagree:

 

1: Because said pastor/Christian is so righteous, so full of the Spirit of God, that hec ould never even consider doing such a thing and dishonoring God.

2: Because of fear of being caught and retribution, either personal or the effects it will have on others, (church, family, spouse, etc)

3: probably the most common, being a combination of both-we are Christians and the Spirit urges us against such sin-though, still human, we may yet fall, but a fear of judgment, of the damage it could cause to family, friends, church, etc, adds to it, to bolster and strenthen resolve and we turn from temptation.

 

Why did Schaap fall as he did? He, pretty blatantly, spent months texting this girl with suggestive, sexually-charged messages, and finnaly took her across state lines for sex. He never thought someon might read her texts? Never thought she might mention this to a parent, a teacher or friend? He seemed to have absolutely no concern for being caught, or, if he was, probably expected he would be shielded. And he obviously had no moral imperative to do the right thing, as this was carefully planned and played out over a considerable time.

 

   Why? Because it was what he learned from his father-in-law and pastor, Jack Hyles. He had no fear of sin, because, like Hyles, probably considered himself too important to be set aside by the Lord for some piddling little indiscretion-he had more spiritual credits than demerits. And, even if caught, his men would surely see to his safety, pay off the family, or discredit them. Just like Hyles. Just didn't work.

 

Hyles has caused great harm that reaches far beyond his own church, because he had and has, such far-reaching influence. So the warning still needs to be sounded. 

 

As for false teaching, how about, he taught that Jesus was always human, from even before the foundations of earth? That's a lie. How about, because Jesus was ALWAYS human, God the Father could not understand man, and always had to defer to Jesus, because He had no experience in humanity. That's just plain foolish.

 

How about, fundamentalism stands or falls on Jack Hyles?  How about, you can't judge me because you've never been in Jack Hyles'  shoes and can't begin to understand Jack Hyles, thus can't judge him? How about, its never right to criticize a pastor? Shall we continue?

 

Its too late for Hyles. But I pray for Jack Schaap, that he will find true repentance, see the error of trying to be like Jack Hyles, and gain a true relationship with the Lord. Maybe get saved, which he may not be. And I pray for the church, that they, as a whole, will see their part in what they did, in feeding Hyles' ego, and repent and seek to be restored fully, and embrace truth. And I pray for the new pastor, that he will turn them around, even be willing to lose some folks if necessary, to please the Lord. But I still will warn others about the dangers of such things and will repudiate the false teachings and attitudes that came out of that place.  

 

The thing is, about the part I underlined, they are not accountable to you & I, nor anyone else that's outside of that church  they're only accountable to Jesus. So why not let Jesus deal with them as He sees fit, He can do a much better job than you or I, or anyone other human.

 

Remember, We Baptist, unlike the RCC,  & even many of the Protestants, do not have a hierarchy, we or at least most Baptist churches claim to go by the Bible, & that each new Testament Church is COMPLETELY independent of all other like churches. And answers directly to Jesus..

 

So it is, some things are better to be left with Jesus, being as He is the Head of each true New Testament Church.

 

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

 

 

That is when it comes to other churches of Jesus', you & I, nor any other pastor, missionary, evangelist  has no authority over them, the only authority we have is within the church that the Holy Ghost has placed us.

 

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

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I believe the main point here, is that the church, itself, has never been called into account for the fact that they allowed what happened, to happen. Until there is an actual acceptance, and repentance, of the church as a whole, those who for years idolized Hyles and considered him as close to deity upon earth as possible. Repentance of the men who stood and refused to hear any charge, any criticism against Hyles, even though the Bible lays out how it is to be done, who sheilded him and ignored his unbiblical demand that the people just ignore any seming impropriety or appearance of evil. The church is as guilty as Hyles, and unless this issue is dealt with, it won't matter who is brought in as pastor. If they have not repented of their allowance for sin because it was for the 'good of the church', (hogwash!), nothing will change.

 

As for Hyles, he absolutely still has influence, though dead, and a warning must still be sounded. Why do we think David Hyles did what he did, time and again? Why did Schaap think he could get away with what he did? Why do graduates of Hyles/Anderson seem to be guilty of the same tendency of making themselves masters of their churches and refusing to be answerable to their churches? These things don't happen in a vacuum, folks-its because they were all taught it by Mr, Hyles. David and Schaap learned that a pastor can do anything without fear of reprisal, that someone would always protect them, because that's what happened with Jack Hyles.

 

Most, probably all pastors, at one time or another, are tempted as Schaap was-Satan tempts men with sexual sin, because its the easiest to get us to fall to. Yet, a majority don't fall to it-why? I give three reasons-feel free to disagree:

 

1: Because said pastor/Christian is so righteous, so full of the Spirit of God, that hec ould never even consider doing such a thing and dishonoring God.

2: Because of fear of being caught and retribution, either personal or the effects it will have on others, (church, family, spouse, etc)

3: probably the most common, being a combination of both-we are Christians and the Spirit urges us against such sin-though, still human, we may yet fall, but a fear of judgment, of the damage it could cause to family, friends, church, etc, adds to it, to bolster and strenthen resolve and we turn from temptation.

 

Why did Schaap fall as he did? He, pretty blatantly, spent months texting this girl with suggestive, sexually-charged messages, and finnaly took her across state lines for sex. He never thought someon might read her texts? Never thought she might mention this to a parent, a teacher or friend? He seemed to have absolutely no concern for being caught, or, if he was, probably expected he would be shielded. And he obviously had no moral imperative to do the right thing, as this was carefully planned and played out over a considerable time.

 

   Why? Because it was what he learned from his father-in-law and pastor, Jack Hyles. He had no fear of sin, because, like Hyles, probably considered himself too important to be set aside by the Lord for some piddling little indiscretion-he had more spiritual credits than demerits. And, even if caught, his men would surely see to his safety, pay off the family, or discredit them. Just like Hyles. Just didn't work.

 

Hyles has caused great harm that reaches far beyond his own church, because he had and has, such far-reaching influence. So the warning still needs to be sounded. 

 

As for false teaching, how about, he taught that Jesus was always human, from even before the foundations of earth? That's a lie. How about, because Jesus was ALWAYS human, God the Father could not understand man, and always had to defer to Jesus, because He had no experience in humanity. That's just plain foolish.

 

How about, fundamentalism stands or falls on Jack Hyles?  How about, you can't judge me because you've never been in Jack Hyles'  shoes and can't begin to understand Jack Hyles, thus can't judge him? How about, its never right to criticize a pastor? Shall we continue?

 

Its too late for Hyles. But I pray for Jack Schaap, that he will find true repentance, see the error of trying to be like Jack Hyles, and gain a true relationship with the Lord. Maybe get saved, which he may not be. And I pray for the church, that they, as a whole, will see their part in what they did, in feeding Hyles' ego, and repent and seek to be restored fully, and embrace truth. And I pray for the new pastor, that he will turn them around, even be willing to lose some folks if necessary, to please the Lord. But I still will warn others about the dangers of such things and will repudiate the false teachings and attitudes that came out of that place.  

Brother, you sure know what goes on inside a man's heart, don't you?

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The thing is, about the part I underlined, they are not accountable to you & I, nor anyone else that's outside of that church  they're only accountable to Jesus. So why not let Jesus deal with them as He sees fit, He can do a much better job than you or I, or anyone other human.

 

Remember, We Baptist, unlike the RCC,  & even many of the Protestants, do not have a hierarchy, we or at least most Baptist churches claim to go by the Bible, & that each new Testament Church is COMPLETELY independent of all other like churches. And answers directly to Jesus..

 

So it is, some things are better to be left with Jesus, being as He is the Head of each true New Testament Church.

 

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

 

 

That is when it comes to other churches of Jesus', you & I, nor any other pastor, missionary, evangelist  has no authority over them, the only authority we have is within the church that the Holy Ghost has placed us.

 

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Excellent. This is a matter for First Baptist to deal with between them and God and really is nobody's business.

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