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Witnessing To A Catholic


Miss Daisy

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I've been friends with someone for a long time who is a very devote Catholic, grew up in very exclusive private catholic schools. And has been very active his whole life in the Catholic church. Anyway, I'm trying to show him some of the errors of the catholic church, and our first stumbling block is communion, he believes it is turned into the body and blood of Christ at that time. Using the verses in the Bible used during communion saying this is my body and my blood.... How do I debate this one?

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Well, when He said those words, it very obviously was not His flesh and His blood.
That much is pretty clear.

However, rather than trying to argue side issues, you should spend time in Romans showing the absolute necessity of salvation from sin.

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The first and most effective thing is, of course, prayer.  After that, a big thing to point out regarding communion is that Jesus Himself said it was to be done "in remembrance" and not as a means of obtaining salvation, cleansing, or any other type of secondary blessing:

 

"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them saying, This is my body which is given for you:  this do in remembrance of me." (Luke 22:19)

 

 

Further, the Apostle Paul (St. Paul to your Catholic friend) reiterated this point to the Corinthians and told them that the partaking of communion was to be done as a memorial to show the Lord's death until He returns.  Paul also claimed to have received confirmation of this directly from Jesus:

 

"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:  And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.  After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.  For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come." (1 Cor 11:23-26)

 

The Catholic interpretion of these and other verses talking about eating the Lord's body and drinking His blood errs in that it tries to take a literal interpretation of a passage that is clearly meant to be metaphorical.  There is no indication in these passages that Jesus turned the bread or wine into His flesh and blood.  You'll notice in all of His other miracles there is a distinct description of a miraculous transformation/occurance and they are never left up for interpretation. 

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Its much more difficult to win someone to Christ that has a false hope than it is someone who has no hope. That is the main reason false teachings are so dangerous & we should never support false teachers in any manner or wish any false teacher God speed.

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The first and most effective thing is, of course, prayer.  After that, a big thing to point out regarding communion is that Jesus Himself said it was to be done "in remembrance" and not as a means of obtaining salvation, cleansing, or any other type of secondary blessing:

 

"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them saying, This is my body which is given for you:  this do in remembrance of me." (Luke 22:19)

 

 

Further, the Apostle Paul (St. Paul to your Catholic friend) reiterated this point to the Corinthians and told them that the partaking of communion was to be done as a memorial to show the Lord's death until He returns.  Paul also claimed to have received confirmation of this directly from Jesus:

 

"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:  And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.  After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.  For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come." (1 Cor 11:23-26)

 

The Catholic interpretion of these and other verses talking about eating the Lord's body and drinking His blood errs in that it tries to take a literal interpretation of a passage that is clearly meant to be metaphorical.  There is no indication in these passages that Jesus turned the bread or wine into His flesh and blood.  You'll notice in all of His other miracles there is a distinct description of a miraculous transformation/occurance and they are never left up for interpretation. 

 

 

Furthermore, wine is fermented (in the Catholic Church) and it would not be representative of the pure, intainted blood of Christ.  Fermentation is a rotting process--it is juice that is aged. 

 

The Catholics believe that they are saved by the communion, as has already been alluded to, so perhaps sticking with the saving grace of Jesus would be a better approach.  The Holy Spirit can convict them that they have been disillusioned when you pound home the doctrine of salvation by faith.  We often teach children to "ask Jesus into their heart", but this phrase can be confusing to those who do no understand. Pray that the the Lord will show you the way to reach this person, after all, He wants them saved more than you do!

 

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

 

You might ask why Jesus died on the cross too.  They believe He did, and have a good prayer expressing that (The "Apostles Creed"), but they don't seem to realize the importance of Christ's sacrifice, and personalize it.

 

Hope this is helpful, but keep in mind that the Holy Spirit saves them, not necessarily what we say.
 

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Furthermore, wine is fermented (in the Catholic Church) and it would not be representative of the pure, intainted blood of Christ.  Fermentation is a rotting process--it is juice that is aged. 

 

The Catholics believe that they are saved by the communion, as has already been alluded to, so perhaps sticking with the saving grace of Jesus would be a better approach.  The Holy Spirit can convict them that they have been disillusioned when you pound home the doctrine of salvation by faith.  We often teach children to "ask Jesus into their heart", but this phrase can be confusing to those who do no understand. Pray that the the Lord will show you the way to reach this person, after all, He wants them saved more than you do!

 

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

 

You might ask why Jesus died on the cross too.  They believe He did, and have a good prayer expressing that (The "Apostles Creed"), but they don't seem to realize the importance of Christ's sacrifice, and personalize it.

 

Hope this is helpful, but keep in mind that the Holy Spirit saves them, not necessarily what we say.
 

 

 

That's true, they believe Eucharist has saving grace in it, & if the church withholds the Eucharist from them, they lose their salvation.

 

I think also, if they are not in good relations with their church, & they do not give them last rites, that also blocks the door of Heaven for them. And perhaps also if they refuse to let them be buried in a Catholic cemetery.

 

​They have many strange things that's not taught within the pages of the Bible.

 

They have their bunch mostly brain washed into believe that the Bible is not enough, that the human has to have the Pope, & the Catholic Church. That solo scriptures will lead you astray of God.

 

Back many years ago the Roman Catholic Church did everything, including murder, to keep the Bible out of the hands of the common man, when that failed they invented that Scriptures alone is not enough.

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They are tought to witness to, they have a false hope.  It seems unfathomable to them that the Pope and millions of his followers could be so wrong.  Without taking sides, I make a comparison between the votes received for President.  Catholics cling to the things invented by man and not the Bible for they do not know it well at all.  Not even their leaders.  Their families as in other cults and man-made religions, bring great pressure upon them if they choose to truly follow the Christ of the Bible.  Sometimes all we can do is pray, we've planted and maybe watered and so it's time to wait till God gives the increase.

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During time at university a friend and I helped lead several Catholics to the Lord. These were Catholics who had a sincere desire to be right with God and sincerely thought the RCC taught what's in the Bible. When presented with the Gospel and shown a couple areas where what the Bible says is not what the RCC teaches, and then walked through the Gospel again, they were clearly convicted by the Holy Ghost and drawn to repentance unto salvation. Each of the Catholics we helped come to Christ over our years there immediately rejected the RCC and asked for help getting into a good church and each joined our Bible study.

 

Where we encountered hard hearts was among those Catholics who were raised in hardcore Catholic families. To them, family and faith was one so any questioning of their faith or claims the RCC wasn't right was viewed as not only an attack upon their religion, but an attack upon their family. These folks quickly reveal their hard hearts so it's clear it's time to move on from them.

 

Over the years I've seen many from the first group come to Christ, but as of yet have seen none from the second group be born again.

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Its much more difficult to win someone to Christ that has a false hope than it is someone who has no hope. That is the main reason false teachings are so dangerous & we should never support false teachers in any manner or wish any false teacher God speed.

I just want to say that false teachers and false prophets are different than false religions.  If a churches theology is 75-80% in accord with yours, I don't see that as being a false church.  There are some false teachings in every church. 

 

The difference is better explained in context of damnable and un-damnable heresies.  False teachers actually get a second chance, and false prophets usually came from outside the church in the NT.  In other words I wouldn't categorize a church with some false teachings as a false church.  We may well see many Catholic's, Seven Day Adventist, JW's, and Mormons when were with God.  I'm not sure your theology "SAVES YOU!"

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I just want to say that false teachers and false prophets are different than false religions.  If a churches theology is 75-80% in accord with yours, I don't see that as being a false church.  There are some false teachings in every church. 

 

The difference is better explained in context of damnable and un-damnable heresies.  False teachers actually get a second chance, and false prophets usually came from outside the church in the NT.  In other words I wouldn't categorize a church with some false teachings as a false church.  We may well see many Catholic's, Seven Day Adventist, JW's, and Mormons when were with God.  I'm not sure your theology "SAVES YOU!"

 

First off, welcome to OB. I do, however, have to disagree with you on this. If a person who is a Catholic, SDA, JW or Mormon, and they believe everything their particular cult teaches, then there is no possible way that they are saved and will be in Heaven. The Catholics are pagans at best, heathens at worst. The JWs believe that Jesus is just "A" god, and not "THE" Son of God; and the Mormons believe that they themselves will become gods if they're good enough. None of that lines up with the biblical definition of salvation.

 

Now it is possible for someone in one of those cults to get saved, and if they are truly in fact saved, they would no longer identify themselves with those cults. There is only one thing that saves us, and it is through our faith in Christ Jesus.

 

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8 KJV

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I just want to say that false teachers and false prophets are different than false religions.  If a churches theology is 75-80% in accord with yours, I don't see that as being a false church.  There are some false teachings in every church. 

 

The difference is better explained in context of damnable and un-damnable heresies.  False teachers actually get a second chance, and false prophets usually came from outside the church in the NT.  In other words I wouldn't categorize a church with some false teachings as a false church.  We may well see many Catholic's, Seven Day Adventist, JW's, and Mormons when were with God.  I'm not sure your theology "SAVES YOU!"

I agree with some of this, but when a church teaches a false gospel then they are a false church. The biblical Gospel of salvation by grace through faith in Christ Jesus is the absolute key factor that separates true from false churches.

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First off, welcome to OB. I do, however, have to disagree with you on this. If a person who is a Catholic, SDA, JW or Mormon, and they believe everything their particular cult teaches, then there is no possible way that they are saved and will be in Heaven. The Catholics are pagans at best, heathens at worst. The JWs believe that Jesus is just "A" god, and not "THE" Son of God; and the Mormons believe that they themselves will become gods if they're good enough. None of that lines up with the biblical definition of salvation.

 

Now it is possible for someone in one of those cults to get saved, and if they are truly in fact saved, they would no longer identify themselves with those cults. There is only one thing that saves us, and it is through our faith in Christ Jesus.

 

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8 KJV

And I would have to disagree with you.  Your theology doesn't save you.  Your doctrine though some may be flawed doesn't condemn you.  Paul while in prison said,

 

But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel; So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places; And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defense of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

 

First he tell them that his persecution and imprisonment has actually furthered the gospel.  Then he goes on to tell them that even though the gospel was being preached with false pretenses or out of envy and strife, "whether in pretense OR in truth," he is still able to rejoice!  To me that puts correct behavior above correct doctrine. 

 

Paul rejoices because...Christ is being preached!

 

For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

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And I would have to disagree with you.  Your theology doesn't save you.  Your doctrine though some may be flawed doesn't condemn you.  Paul while in prison said,

 

But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel; So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places; And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defense of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

 

First he tell them that his persecution and imprisonment has actually furthered the gospel.  Then he goes on to tell them that even though the gospel was being preached with false pretenses or out of envy and strife, "whether in pretense OR in truth," he is still able to rejoice!  To me that puts correct behavior above correct doctrine. 

 

Paul rejoices because...Christ is being preached!

 

For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

 

Your right, theology doesn't save, Jesus saves, & its only by faith thru grace, not of works, not of self, its a gift, & the Catholic, SDA, JW or Mormon, as well as many more do not teach that, they teach a path to being saved that does not exist.

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Your right, theology doesn't save, Jesus saves, & its only by faith thru grace, not of works, not of self, its a gift, & the Catholic, SDA, JW or Mormon, as well as many more do not teach that, they teach a path to being saved that does not exist.

I know what your saying.  But I don't think we can judge a persons salvation by what we deem as correct doctrine. Jesus is the one who decides that and Jesus can be and is very much in the heart of many Mormons, JW's, Catholic's etc.  All we are commanded to do is bring what truth we may know to them and Jesus takes it from there.  There are damnable and un-damnable heresies. 

 

Your salvation isn't dependent upon your doctrine as much as it is dependent upon Christ being in your heart through repentance.

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Your salvation isn't dependent upon your doctrine as much as it is dependent upon Christ being in your heart through repentance.

 

Here's the part I think you're missing, which Jesus Christ?  The Muhammaden version?  The Catholic or Methodist version?  The Mormon or Jehovah's Witness version?  How about the Freewill Baptist or Nazarene Christ?  Can any of their Messiah's save?

 

Only by making repentance towards God and putting one's faith in Jesus Christ can one be saved; this is the Bible Way and the only way to heaven.  All of those other works-based "religions" lead to the same place, eternal hell.  None of them are in accord with the Scriptures.

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And I would have to disagree with you.  Your theology doesn't save you.  Your doctrine though some may be flawed doesn't condemn you.  Paul while in prison said,

 

But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel; So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places; And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defense of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

 

First he tell them that his persecution and imprisonment has actually furthered the gospel.  Then he goes on to tell them that even though the gospel was being preached with false pretenses or out of envy and strife, "whether in pretense OR in truth," he is still able to rejoice!  To me that puts correct behavior above correct doctrine. 

 

Paul rejoices because...Christ is being preached!

 

For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

Paul rejoiced because Christ was preached but nowhere in the passage does he say "correct behavior" is put above "correct doctrine". 

 

Technically, it's true theology doesn't save you. Jesus Christ saves you. But if you preach a theologically incorrect gospel you are damning people to hell. Let's not get hung up on semantics here. Heresies, at the most, can damn people to hell and, at the least, cause "faith shipwreck". 

 

Romans 6:17- But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

 

I Timothy 4:16- Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

 

II Timothy 3:16- All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

Notice in the last verse that doctrine is first in the least of reasons scripture was given by God? A theologically correct foundation needs to be laid first before all else.

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I know what your saying.  But I don't think we can judge a persons salvation by what we deem as correct doctrine. Jesus is the one who decides that and Jesus can be and is very much in the heart of many Mormons, JW's, Catholic's etc.  All we are commanded to do is bring what truth we may know to them and Jesus takes it from there.  There are damnable and un-damnable heresies. 

 

Your salvation isn't dependent upon your doctrine as much as it is dependent upon Christ being in your heart through repentance.

 

Yes we can, we have a copy of God's Word, & it gives only one way to be saved, not many, & those that refuse that one way are lost. They prove they are not saved by telling how they think they got saved.

 

Tell us, about your salvation experience.

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Yes we can, we have a copy of God's Word, & it gives only one way to be saved, not many, & those that refuse that one way are lost. They prove they are not saved by telling how they think they got saved.

 

Tell us, about your salvation experience.

We can't judge a persons salvation by their doctrine because we don't know their heart and position in Christ though you might think you do.  There are damnable heresies and un-damnable heresies.  A damnable heresy is one who is antichrist and Catholicism isn't antichrist anyway according to 1st John.  They are Trinitarians, believe in the cross and the blood of Christ as much as Protestants, and believe Christ rose from the dead and will return to raise the dead again as well as raise His own in the gathering.  So if your telling me you can be the judge a Catholic's eternal destiny....have at it. I strongly disagree.

 

I have told people about my salvation experience on the welcome board.

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Paul rejoiced because Christ was preached but nowhere in the passage does he say "correct behavior" is put above "correct doctrine".

Technically, it's true theology doesn't save you. Jesus Christ saves you. But if you preach a theologically incorrect gospel you are damning people to hell. Let's not get hung up on semantics here. Heresies, at the most, can damn people to hell and, at the least, cause "faith shipwreck".

 

 

The text doesn't say that about "righteousness" but you can conclude it from Pauls other writings. In Galations 1:6-9.

 

Galatia is where Paul went on some of his missionary journeys. The Galatian's were being troubled and annoyed by false teachers. Probably the same ones that followed Paul around as he went city to city. They challenged Paul's authority and criticize his teachings. These false teachers said that a man's works made him righteous. They were not in the church but outside of it and were trying to get a following of their own through sheep stealing mostly for monetary gain. They are false teachers of damnable heresies grossly perverting the word of God and Paul curses those teachers. Paul's teachings to the Galatians was on the basis of righteousness by the grace of God.

 

In Philippians 1:14-18 Paul reverses that standard.  He doesn't curse those that preach Christ even with evil motives or not in complete truth.  He actually rejoices in that Christ is being preached!  Those teachings are un-damnable heresies   We are righteous by the Grace of God and our un-damnable heresies do not condemn us. It's the Christ that's in your heart and not the doctrine in your brain or your Church that saves you. Paul s teaching on one hand appears contradictory as he curses false teachers that preach works, yet on the other hand rejoices in that Christ is being preached anyway.  You are saved by our righteousness in Christ.

 

What appears to be a contradiction in Pauls teachings really is not. It's just that there are damnable and undamnable heresies.

 

Notice in the last verse that doctrine is first in the least of reasons scripture was given by God? A theologically correct foundation needs to be laid first before all else.

 

A theological foundation isn't necessary for salvation.  I've known a lot of Pastors and most of them will tell that they don't completely accept the entirety of their Church's theology.  They often have their own personal differences and uncertainties about it. 

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We can't judge a persons salvation by their doctrine

 

Where do you find this in the Bible? If a person's doctrine is that they believe they have to do works to get into Heaven they are going to hell. This is what the Catholics believe. The Bible tells us the Catholics are wrong. Jehovah Witnesses believe that Jesus isn't God. So a person with that doctrine has a false god. False gods don't save according to the Bible.

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