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PreacherBen

Our New President

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[quote="Kitagrl"][quote="HappyChristian"][quote="Kitagrl"]

Only to pray for them and obey them, and honor the office. [color=#800000]Actually, in our republican form of government, he is to obey us!! Check this out: http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.co ... nnon-Howse[/color]
Obama did not run an honest race, therefore he deserves no congratulations. [color=#800000]Yup![/color]
He started the entire race with a lie.."I will accept public funding". Yeah right. So when McCain accepted it, he changed...therefore had unlimited funds. [color=#800000]He didn't just [u]say[/u] he wouldn accept public funding - he signed a paper saying it!!![/color] He is a lying deceiving baby killing Jew hating (it will come out eventually) gay loving Marxist....whom we need to pray for, and obey...but not congratulate. [color=#800000]NOT obey!!!!![/color][/quote][/quote]

I'm sorry but we do have to obey our government unless it tells us to sin. Its in the NT. :smile[/quote]
:Green As you've said before, chapter and verse? Something I've tried to explain, and the link that I gave earlier does well, is that our form of government is different from an empire. In an empire the power and authority rests in the emporer and his appointed minions. Our government was set up differently. It is supposed to be a government of law - with the people as the rulers, not those who serve in office. So, in effect, according to scripture, the elected servants are to obey us, not the other way around. Yes, we obey the laws of the land that our elected servants pass - at our behest. Our government was not set up with little kings and queens ruling over us. It was set up with the people being the ones in charge.

For way too many years schools (even Christian schools) have taught a wrong, wrong, wrong concept of our government and so too many Americans believe that they are our bosses, and claim Rom. 13 and a couple of other scriptures as proof. But it isn't so. WE are THEIR bosses. A republic isn't set up the same as an empire. So, in order for us to be obedient to scripture, THEY are to obey US.

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I think that the Scripture was not set up to define an empire, but for anyone in authority. I think I've said before...if they can throw you in jail for not obeying a law, then they are your authority.

I could cite zillions of reasons why our elected officials are also our authorities.... I mean, even to get my cake business licensed, I had to "get permission". That's authority, and the Bible teaches respect for us.

What you are saying is ideology, but not realism, unfortunately.

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I think that the Scripture was not set up to define an empire, but for anyone in authority. I think I've said before...if they can throw you in jail for not obeying a law, then they are your authority.

I could cite zillions of reasons why our elected officials are also our authorities.... I mean, even to get my cake business licensed, I had to "get permission". That's authority, and the Bible teaches respect for us.

What you are saying is ideology, but not realism, unfortunately.

No, it is not ideology, kita, and you're thinking so shows that you don't understand a true republic (with all due respect, and not meant in a snide, hateful way!!). Scripture was set up to define ANY government - and our government is supposed to be by the people...but the wrong teachings that we have received have caused us to sit back and let our elected servants become our elected rulers. Those in office are supposed to obey US.

We the people are supposed to appoint our government, to run the way WE the people want it done. That is why there is voting, with an electoral college as protection against a majority coup. All of the protections that our founding fathers put in place were for that reason - to protect us from socialism, which is the natural child of complete majority democracy...where we are quickly headed, because people have been wrongly educated.

The authority you are talking about is STOLEN authority (and what our forefathers fought against!). Why should you have to get licensed to sell cakes? That isn't true freedom. I'm not saying to flout it, I'm saying that we are being legislated to death here in America...and it's because of the poor education that has gone on about our government and how it's supposed to be. Not ideally, realistically.

A republic is a rule of law - not a rule of law run amok and applied only to the citizens of that country. Our country has come so far from being a true republic that even Christians today don't know what it's supposed to be. Realistically.

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Oh but I DO understand what you are saying.

But I'm saying it doesn't practically work out that way. Yeah...sure ok I shouldn't HAVE to get a license...but I DO. Or, technically, I can be turned in and fined. That means that, like it or not, they have BECOME our authorities. They have set themselves up in that way, and God does tell us to obey any in authority.

They had dictators back then...we should be thankful that we don't have that....yet.

And anyway...we choose our husbands, do we not? Yet, we still are supposed to voluntarily put ourselves under their authority. I feel that is how America is...we can choose our authorities, but they are still our authorities.

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Though I doubt he reads this board, I do want to extend congratulations to our new president elect, Barak Obama. Though most here probably did not want him to be our President, the fact of the matter is he is, so, our job is to pray for him and support where we can.


1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;

1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Let us not fall into the trap of speaking ill of Mr. Obama. The bible tells us:

2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous [are they], selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Psa 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

Bro. Ben


I agree with praying for those in authority and etc.; however I'm curious about how this example of Jesus fits in with the above verses:


Luke 13:31-32
31The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
32And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.


Jesus calls Herod a fox. Does that mean we can mock Obama for his wickedness? If not how is the above verse rightly divided?

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I don't think he was mocking.... I think he was just saying "Go tell that deceitful ruler", which is exactly what we say about Obama...its simply a truth.

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I agree with praying for those in authority and etc.; however I'm curious about how this example of Jesus fits in with the above verses:


Luke 13:31-32
31The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
32And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.


Jesus calls Herod a fox. Does that mean we can mock Obama for his wickedness? If not how is the above verse rightly divided?


I don't think Jesus was mocking him - I think he was just referring to the fact that Herod was sly and sneaky. I don't think we should mock BO - but there isn't anything in the Bible that tells us we can't point out his wickedness.

kita, you were posting as I was... :Green

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A thorough study of Romans 13 using the KJV 1611 AV will clarify what the Apostle Paul means. :thumb

Many of America?s pastors believe Christians are always to comply with the wishes of the government.


Nope. We are to comply with the orders of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The ruler is to be a ?servant of God' date='? and government should reward good and punish evil. Government that fails to do so is outside God?s mandated authority and function. Government is not autonomous; it has delegated authority from God. It is to restrain evil and punish wrongdoers. When it does violate God?s delegated role and refuses to reward good and punish evil, it has not proper authority. The apostle Paul called for believers to ?be subject? to government, but he did not instruct them to ?obey? every command of government. When government issues an unjust or unbiblical injunction, Christians have a higher authority. One can be ?subject? to the authority of the state but still refuse to ?obey? a specific law which is contrary to biblical standards.[1']


:goodpost::amen: This is just a given to me. Common sense, as the Bible speaks---tells me this automatically.


We will serve God or serve man' date=' but we cannot serve both. [/quote']

This is PRECISELY why we NEED to come together as IFB's and other like-minded faiths to battle the enemy. I am surprised that it has really taken this long. I lived on the (other side) unwillingly. People who grow up with knowledge of the Bible and Jesus Christ should really understand what it is like for those of us that come out of cults.



Shouldn't all Christ followers be living like this?



Maybe what we all need to do is NOT wait until things get real bad...but, use preventative measures. Just like "preventative" dentistry. GET THEM BEFORE THEY GET US!!! We are NOT just fighting the President Elect...we are fighting a whole regime.

Thanks for the information---LuAnne!! Now, let's apply it, instead of just talking about it. As they say..."Actions speak louder than words." :wave:

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I don't think Jesus was mocking him - I think he was just referring to the fact that Herod was sly and sneaky. I don't think we should mock BO - but there isn't anything in the Bible that tells us we can't point out his wickedness.

kita, you were posting as I was... :Green


No, the reason its going on is because of sin, fallen men. They just can't help their selves, its their nature, don't blame the people for what sinners are doing. Many of them even hiding behind God claiming to be doing His will.

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No' date=' the reason its going on is because of sin, fallen men. They just can't help their selves, its their nature, don't blame the people for what sinners are doing. Many of them even hiding behind God claiming to be doing His will.[/quote']

:amen::goodpost: Pastor Jerry.

That is why I talked with my pastor, briefly, last night and I said..."Pastor...I really don't want all you Christian folk who have been living for the Lord----the best way that you know how, for years, to blame yourselves." I said..."I was unwillingly a heathen for most of my life." Holding back the tears---I said..."I have been living a saved life for 5 years now" and...it looks like were going home already. He replied...(humbly)---"Molly, we've had it pretty good for years." That made me feel so much better.

Thank God when the flesh gets in there---with saved man/woman we have repentance. Praise God.

There are still so many lost souls in need of salvation. :amen:

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Our Founders understood the sin nature which is why they attempted to separate the powers within the government and why they attempted to limit the federal government to such a small roll. Sadly their efforts failed and sin won over.

Of course, without Christ there is no way to win over sin.

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Let us not fall into the trap of speaking ill of Mr. Obama. The bible tells us:

2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous [are they], selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

That depends on the definition of "speaking ill". In one case, it's not a bad thing: that's where we make notice of his mistakes, deceit, and flaws of his policy. In this country, we employ a president, therefore we have the right to watch his actions to learn from for the next election. If you consider that bad, than every single politician who makes notice of his potential predecessor's mistakes is sinning and therefore makes a large part of campaigning sinful.

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That depends on the definition of "speaking ill". In one case, it's not a bad thing: that's where we make notice of his mistakes, deceit, and flaws of his policy. In this country, we employ a president, therefore we have the right to watch his actions to learn from for the next election. If you consider that bad, than every single politician who makes notice of his potential predecessor's mistakes is sinning and therefore makes a large part of campaigning sinful.



Spot on...anime4christ. :amen:

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Most of our congressmen, unlike our congressmen of yesterday year, spend most of their time in Washington around other congressmen and lobbyist instead of at home around the people they're suppose to represent.

They're out of touch with what the people back home want and or need. Most of them could probably represent people at Washington better than they can the ones who elected them.

Plus you become like those you hang out and run with.

One thing for sure, the lobbyist and the ones they work for are well represented by all of our congressmen.

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Most of our congressmen' date=' unlike our congressmen of yesterday year, spend most of their time in Washington around other congressmen and lobbyist instead of at home around the people they're suppose to represent. Very true.

They're out of touch with what the people back home want and or need. Most of them could probably represent people at Washington better than they can the ones who elected them.

Plus you become like those you hang out and run with. When you go to bed with dogs, you wake up with flees.

One thing for sure, the lobbyist and the ones they work for are well represented by all of our congressmen.


Washington, DC is a wild place. I have been over every inch of that city in 1996. I can't imagine it now?

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Luke 13:31-32
31The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
32And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Jesus calls Herod a fox. Does that mean we can mock Obama for his wickedness? If not how is the above verse rightly divided?


First of all, when you think your outward acts of righteousness can compare with the Lord's that were driven by a completely holy nature, you can do some of the things He did...maybe even raise the dead! :cool

So what should we do in light of Mr. Obama becoming President whether you think, believe it was a fixed election or not, compare scripture with scripture.

Paul said:
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

This means a perfect democratic republic and Rome. Of course we are to obey all they say UNLESS it contradicts the word of God...it is the ultimate authority.

Peter said:
2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous [are they], selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

This rubs against MY very base nature, but it is flesh that rears up, not the sweet Spirit of God.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

This ain't people, this is the same thing Daniel stood up against.

2Cr 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Cr 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

We either do this COMPLETELY the Bible way (we claim to be Bible believers,) or the fleshly way, not both, it does not work.

Jude, speaking of FALSE TEACHERS said:

Jud 1:8 Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

One should be careful for their accusation and condemnation of one even like Barak Obama who obviously does not share our values (or should I say Biblical values.) We do not know what God is trying to accomplish and should be careful lest we be found standing against the Lord and His sovereign will (if you believe in sovereignty.)

Psa 75:4 I said unto the fools, Deal not foolishly: and to the wicked, Lift not up the horn:
Psa 75:5 Lift not up your horn on high: speak [not with] a stiff neck.
Psa 75:6 For promotion [cometh] neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south.[Neither from the Republicans, Democrats, Independents, etc., insertion, mine.]
Psa 75:7 But God [is] the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.

The fact of the matter is we are on a freight train that is fully loaded, heading down hill, has no brakes, and has an appointment with the Second Coming of Christ. The Lord is going to set up every situation, even a socialist President, to speed that course along.

Pro 21:1 The king's heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Can we not trust in that (Proverbs 21:1) rather than trust in politicians that the religious, conservative, right put in there that WE THOUGHT were going to show the Clinton 90's Democrats how to do it right? Consider:

Pro 22:11 He [That's us, insert mine] that loveth pureness of heart, [for] the grace of his lips the king [shall be] his friend.

Lot's of strong POLITICAL feelings here, but we are to be people of the Bible in word and DEED. What good is it to be gun barrel straight...and twice as empty?!

Bro. Ben

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Regardless of who the person is, if they do wrong, they are to be marked for it. And BO (who may become POTUS, but he is not yet President-elect) is no different. There is nowhere in the Bible that tells us we are to be cowed into silence just because someone is elected. The POTUS is our employee, not our lord.

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[quote="PreacherBen"]

First of all, when you think your outward acts of righteousness can compare with the Lord's that were driven by a completely holy nature, you can do some of the things He did...maybe even raise the dead! :cool

So what should we do in light of Mr. Obama becoming President whether you think, believe it was a fixed election or not, compare scripture with scripture.

Paul said:
[color=#0000FF]Rom 13:1 [b]Let every soul be subject [/b]unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: [b]the powers that be [/b]are [b]ordained of God[/b].
Rom 13:2 [b]Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.[/b][/color]

This means a perfect democratic republic and Rome. Of course we are to obey all they say [b]UNLESS[/b] it contradicts the word of God...it is the ultimate authority.

Peter said:
[color=#0000FF]2Pe 2:10 But chiefly [b]them that walk after the flesh [/b]in the lust of uncleanness, and [b]despise government[/b]. Presumptuous [are they], selfwilled, they are [b]not afraid to speak evil of dignities[/b].
2Pe 2:11 [b]Whereas [u]angels[/u], which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord[/b].[/color]

This rubs against MY very base nature, but it is flesh that rears up, not the sweet Spirit of God.

[color=#0000FF]Eph 6:12 For [b]we wrestle not against flesh[/b] and blood, [b]but against [/b]principalities, against powers, against the [b]rulers of the darkness[/b] of this world, against [b]spiritual wickedness in high[/b] [places]. [/color]

This ain't people, this is the same thing Daniel stood up against.

[color=#0000FF]2Cr 10:3 For [u]though we walk in the flesh[/u], [b]we do not war after the flesh[/b]:
2Cr 10:4 (For [u]the weapons of our warfare [b][are] not carnal[/b][/u], but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)[/color]

We either do this COMPLETELY the Bible way (we claim to be Bible believers,) or the fleshly way, not both, it does not work.

Jude, speaking of FALSE TEACHERS said:

[color=#0000FF]Jud 1:8 Likewise also [b]these [filthy] dreamers[/b] defile the flesh, [b]despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities[/b].
Jud 1:9 [b]Yet Michael[/b] the archangel, when [b]contending with the devil[/b] he disputed about the body of Moses, [b]durst not bring against him a railing accusation[/b], but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Jud 1:10 [b]But these speak evil of those things which they know not[/b]: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.[/color]

One should be careful for their accusation and condemnation of one even like Barak Obama who obviously does not share our values (or should I say Biblical values.) We do not know what God is trying to accomplish and should be careful lest we be found standing against the Lord and His sovereign will (if you believe in sovereignty.)

[color=#0000FF]Psa 75:4 I said unto the fools, Deal not foolishly: and to the wicked, Lift not up the horn:
Psa 75:5 Lift not up your horn on high: speak [not with] a stiff neck.
Psa 75:6 [b]For promotion [cometh] neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south.[/b][/color][Neither from the Republicans, Democrats, Independents, etc., insertion, mine.]
[color=#0000FF]Psa 75:7 But God [is] the judge: [b]he putteth down one, and setteth up another[/b].[/color]

The fact of the matter is we are on a freight train that is fully loaded, heading down hill, has no brakes, and has an appointment with the Second Coming of Christ. The Lord is going to set up every situation, even a socialist President, to speed that course along.

[color=#0000FF]Pro 21:1 The king's heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.[/color]

Can we not trust in that (Proverbs 21:1) rather than trust in politicians that the religious, conservative, right put in there that WE THOUGHT were going to show the Clinton 90's Democrats how to do it right? Consider:

[color=#0000FF]Pro 22:11 He[/color] [That's us, insert mine] [color=#0000FF]that loveth [b]pureness of heart[/b], [for] [b]the grace of his lips[/b] [u]the king [shall be] his friend[/u].[/color]

Lot's of strong POLITICAL feelings here, but we are to be people of the Bible in word and DEED. What good is it to be gun barrel straight...and twice as empty?!

Bro. Ben[/quote]

:goodpost:

...but I've wondered about this one...

[color=#0000FF]Rom 13:1 [b]Let every soul be subject [/b]unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: [b]the powers that be [/b]are [b]ordained of God[/b].
Rom 13:2 [b]Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.[/b][/color]

This means a perfect democratic republic and Rome. Of course we are to obey all they say [b]UNLESS[/b] it contradicts the word of God...it is the ultimate authority.


...as some use this as evidence America's Founders were wrong (unbiblical) with regards to the American Revolution. What say you?

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[quote="HappyChristian"]Regardless of who the person is, if they do wrong, they are to be marked for it. And BO (who may become POTUS, but he is not yet President-elect) is no different. There is nowhere in the Bible that tells us we are to be cowed into silence just because someone is elected. The POTUS is our employee, not our lord.[/quote]

I think it's a matter of how we go about this. We can speak the truth in love, or we can speak in and undermining manner, or out of hate, etc.

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Bro. John, you asked,
[quote]...as some use this as evidence America's Founders were wrong (unbiblical) with regards to the American Revolution. What say you?[/quote]

[color=#0000FF]1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that [b]with well doing [/b]ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
1Pe 2:16 As free, and [b]not using [your] liberty [/b]for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the [b]servants of God[/b].
1Pe 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. [b]Honour the king[/b].[/color]

Well...(as I lean my head forward for some smacking,) We either are going to obey or disobey that clear command. We are never told to rebel against our government, (and someone please don't jump in and give an O.T. example because we are under the New Covenant and our battle is for a "life," not a "land.") The reason we are a nation of rebels is because we were born of rebellion. I don't care how "godly" our founding fathers were, they were mostly influenced by Calvin's Reformed Dominion Theology which justifies righteous war, you know, "Kill them all and let God sort out the bodies, the elect will go to heaven."

We should have submitted, prayed, fasted, and honored the king, and God (you know, King of all kings,) would have given us what we [u]needed[/u] accoarding to His greater wisdom.

Happy Christian, you said:
[quote]There is nowhere in the Bible that tells us we are to be cowed into silence just because someone is elected. The POTUS is our employee, not our lord.[/quote]

No, we are not to be cowed into silence, but we are commanded by the Most High God to hold the man who we elect into the office in esteem. If we don't we are in sin and are bring reproach on our personal testimony and upon the church at large. He (whatever a POTUS is,) is our employee, but we elected to give him the position that God has ordained to be held in high esteem. Sure in our current form of government, we have the ability through contacting our elected Congressman and Senators, of voicing our disagreement with current policy or upcoming decisions, but we HAD BETTER DO IT in a way prescribed by God or we are in sin...plain and simple.

The fact of the matter is that we belong to a different Kingdom and have dual citizenship, but the Superior King our Heavenly Land, has told just how we are to conduct ourselves over on this shore. If you and do not, WE WILL answer to the King when we get home.

[color=#0000FF]1Ti 2:1 [b]I exhort therefore, that, first of all[/b], supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] [b]giving of thanks[/b], be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 [b]For kings[/b], and [for] [b]all that are in authority[/b];[/color] [[u]why[/u], insert mine] [color=#0000FF] that [b]we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.[/b]
1Ti 2:3 For [b]this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God [/b]our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.[/color]

Though we do not agree with the policies of Barak Obama, he should look at the Christian community and say, "I wish I could get America to operate like that!"

Bro. Ben

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[quote="PreacherBen"]Bro. John, you asked,
[quote]...as some use this as evidence America's Founders were wrong (unbiblical) with regards to the American Revolution. What say you?[/quote]

[color=#0000FF]1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that [b]with well doing [/b]ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
1Pe 2:16 As free, and [b]not using [your] liberty [/b]for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the [b]servants of God[/b].
1Pe 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. [b]Honour the king[/b].[/color]

Well...(as I lean my head forward for some smacking,) We either are going to obey or disobey that clear command. We are never told to rebel against our government, (and someone please don't jump in and give an O.T. example because we are under the New Covenant and our battle is for a "life," not a "land.") The reason we are a nation of rebels is because we were born of rebellion. I don't care how "godly" our founding fathers were, they were mostly influenced by Calvin's Reformed Dominion Theology which justifies righteous war, you know, "Kill them all and let God sort out the bodies, the elect will go to heaven."

We should have submitted, prayed, fasted, and honored the king, and God (you know, King of all kings,) would have given us what we [u]needed[/u] accoarding to His greater wisdom.

Happy Christian, you said:
[quote]There is nowhere in the Bible that tells us we are to be cowed into silence just because someone is elected. The POTUS is our employee, not our lord.[/quote]

No, we are not to be cowed into silence, but we are commanded by the Most High God to hold the man who we elect into the office in esteem. If we don't we are in sin and are bring reproach on our personal testimony and upon the church at large. He (whatever a POTUS is,) is our employee, but we elected to give him the position that God has ordained to be held in high esteem. Sure in our current form of government, we have the ability through contacting our elected Congressman and Senators, of voicing our disagreement with current policy or upcoming decisions, but we HAD BETTER DO IT in a way prescribed by God or we are in sin...plain and simple.

The fact of the matter is that we belong to a different Kingdom and have dual citizenship, but the Superior King our Heavenly Land, has told just how we are to conduct ourselves over on this shore. If you and do not, WE WILL answer to the King when we get home.

[color=#0000FF]1Ti 2:1 [b]I exhort therefore, that, first of all[/b], supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] [b]giving of thanks[/b], be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 [b]For kings[/b], and [for] [b]all that are in authority[/b];[/color] [[u]why[/u], insert mine] [color=#0000FF] that [b]we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.[/b]
1Ti 2:3 For [b]this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God [/b]our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.[/color]

Though we do not agree with the policies of Barak Obama, he should look at the Christian community and say, "I wish I could get America to operate like that!"

Bro. Ben[/quote]

Not popular, but true.

Isn't it ironic that Jesus submitted to a crooked and unjust government and told His 12 to do the same, pl;us Paul led by the Holy Spirit wrote for us to submit to those who are over us. But yet man keeps right on rebelling against their government and feel they are justified to do so.

Also many of them will use our forefathers rebelling against England as an excuse to rebel against our present day government.

Seems to me the only time we have an excuse not to obey our government is when they tell us to do something that is a sin against God the Father of Christ our Savior.

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Amen, Bro. Jerry. You commented:

Also many of them will use our forefathers rebelling against England as an excuse to rebel against our present day government.

Seems to me the only time we have an excuse not to obey our government is when they tell us to do something that is a sin against God the Father of Christ our Savior.


Isn't this kind of like situational ethics? We flare when we see someone justifying some "other" ungodly deed, but when it is "our cause," we seem to have tunnel vision. I like quotes from the early church fathers, they are very interesting, and a window into the attitude in the early church, BUT, they are still just quotes by men and therefore I am not to use them as the sole justification for my doctrinal decisions and actions. Some of those great fathers were, well, wrong. Likewise some use scripture out of context. For example:

Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Someone might easily think this is the open door to rebellion against all authority, but it is only permission by God to speak the truth in love to those who had missed Christ as Messiah. God's heartbeat was for the Gospel to go to the Jew first and then to the Gentile, therefore they had to disobey the command by (note who) the (eroneous) religious authorities.

I know the following is a big passage of scripture, but it is so good and so applicable for such a time as this.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:
1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.
1Pe 3:13 And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Pe 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

When we humble ourselves and submit to the greater authority, Christ, and render not evil (our poor attempt to put others in their "right place,") for their evil (which lost people will naturally do,) we will give God an opportunity to use us, perhaps to win someone to Christ through it all. Isn't that what it's really all about anyways?

Bro. Ben

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I can agree with some of your points, but not all of them. I'm not going to argue, nor comment anymore in this thread, but I do believe that you need to study the history of the founding of this country a little more in depth. Granted, there were people who just wanted to throw off the yoke of England, but it went very much deeper than that.

POTUS stands for President of the United States. I respect the office. I do not respect the man who has supposedly been chosen. And I don't have to, thank you. He is so anti-Biblical it isn't funny. I will pray for the man as POTUS, and I will pray that he gets saved (a friend of ours who pastors a new church in his neck of the woods has tried to make contact with him to talk to him about the Lord).

Our founding fathers did all that they could to work with the crown. The crown didn't want to work with the colonies. He simply wanted them to roll over and do whatever he said. That was a gigantic contributing factor to the founding of this country as a constitutional republic - no man is king (but we could say that the citizens are, since the elected are our employees).

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Bro. John, you asked,


1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
1Pe 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Well...(as I lean my head forward for some smacking,) We either are going to obey or disobey that clear command. We are never told to rebel against our government, (and someone please don't jump in and give an O.T. example because we are under the New Covenant and our battle is for a "life," not a "land.") The reason we are a nation of rebels is because we were born of rebellion. I don't care how "godly" our founding fathers were, they were mostly influenced by Calvin's Reformed Dominion Theology which justifies righteous war, you know, "Kill them all and let God sort out the bodies, the elect will go to heaven."

We should have submitted, prayed, fasted, and honored the king, and God (you know, King of all kings,) would have given us what we needed accoarding to His greater wisdom.

Happy Christian, you said:


No, we are not to be cowed into silence, but we are commanded by the Most High God to hold the man who we elect into the office in esteem. If we don't we are in sin and are bring reproach on our personal testimony and upon the church at large. He (whatever a POTUS is,) is our employee, but we elected to give him the position that God has ordained to be held in high esteem. Sure in our current form of government, we have the ability through contacting our elected Congressman and Senators, of voicing our disagreement with current policy or upcoming decisions, but we HAD BETTER DO IT in a way prescribed by God or we are in sin...plain and simple.

The fact of the matter is that we belong to a different Kingdom and have dual citizenship, but the Superior King our Heavenly Land, has told just how we are to conduct ourselves over on this shore. If you and do not, WE WILL answer to the King when we get home.

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; [why, insert mine] that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Though we do not agree with the policies of Barak Obama, he should look at the Christian community and say, "I wish I could get America to operate like that!"

Bro. Ben


:goodpost:

I'm one who grew up believing the Founding Fathers were right and justified in virtually all they did. I believed and defended this for many years even after being saved. However, when I actually looked at what Scripture says and then compared it to what was done with regards to the American Revolution I was dismayed to see that the Founders didn't act in a biblical manner.

If the Founders were biblically justified in what they did then any of us today, and actually anyone during the course of the past several decades (and one could argue anyone during the past 150 years) could rise up in rebellion and be just as biblically justified or more so. All the reasons the Founders listed for rebelling against England are far more profound today. Interestingly, while many preach the Founders were biblically justified in what they did, they don't believe folks doing the same thing today would be biblically justified.

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[quote="PreacherBen"]Amen, Bro. Jerry. You commented:

[quote]Also many of them will use our forefathers rebelling against England as an excuse to rebel against our present day government.

Seems to me the only time we have an excuse not to obey our government is when they tell us to do something that is a sin against God the Father of Christ our Savior.[/quote]

Isn't this kind of like situational ethics? We flare when we see someone justifying some "other" ungodly deed, but when it is "our cause," we seem to have tunnel vision. I like quotes from the early church fathers, they are very interesting, and a window into the attitude in the early church, BUT, they are still just quotes by men and therefore I am not to use them as the sole justification for my doctrinal decisions and actions. Some of those great fathers were, well, wrong. Likewise some use scripture out of context. For example:

[color=#0000FF]Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, [b]We ought to obey God rather than men[/b].[/color]

Someone might easily think this is the open door to rebellion against all authority, but it is only permission by God to speak the truth in love to those who had missed Christ as Messiah. God's heartbeat was for the Gospel to go to the Jew first and then to the Gentile, therefore they had to disobey the command by (note who) the (eroneous) religious authorities.

I know the following is a big passage of scripture, but it is so good and so applicable for such a time as this.

[color=#0000FF]1Pe 3:8 Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, [b]having compassion[/b] one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [b][be] courteous[/b]:
1Pe 3:9 [b]Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.[/b]
1Pe 3:10 [u]For he that will love life, and see good days[/u], [b]let him refrain his tongue from evil[/b], and his lips that they speak no guile:
1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; [b]let him seek peace[/b], and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12 [u]For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.[/u]
1Pe 3:13 And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
1Pe 3:14 [b]But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: [/b]and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe 3:15 [u]But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: [/u]
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, [b]they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.[/b]
1Pe 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. [/color]

When we humble ourselves and submit to the greater authority, Christ, and render not evil (our poor attempt to put others in their "right place,") for their evil (which lost people will naturally do,) we will give God an opportunity to use us, perhaps to win someone to Christ through it all. Isn't that what it's really all about anyways?

Bro. Ben[/quote]

Who are these early church fathers you speak of? I believe you mentioned the before. When I hear 'early church fathers' I think of the RCC and its history of false teachings.

But one does not have to use what some man said or wrote, all they need is the Bible and its principles to see what has been right and or wrong in the past or present time.

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