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[quote="PreacherBen"]Bro. John, you asked,
[quote]...as some use this as evidence America's Founders were wrong (unbiblical) with regards to the American Revolution. What say you?[/quote]

[color=#0000FF]1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that [b]with well doing [/b]ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
1Pe 2:16 As free, and [b]not using [your] liberty [/b]for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the [b]servants of God[/b].
1Pe 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. [b]Honour the king[/b].[/color]

Well...(as I lean my head forward for some smacking,) We either are going to obey or disobey that clear command. We are never told to rebel against our government, (and someone please don't jump in and give an O.T. example because we are under the New Covenant and our battle is for a "life," not a "land.") The reason we are a nation of rebels is because we were born of rebellion. I don't care how "godly" our founding fathers were, they were mostly influenced by Calvin's Reformed Dominion Theology which justifies righteous war, you know, "Kill them all and let God sort out the bodies, the elect will go to heaven."

We should have submitted, prayed, fasted, and honored the king, and God (you know, King of all kings,) would have given us what we [u]needed[/u] accoarding to His greater wisdom.

Happy Christian, you said:
[quote]There is nowhere in the Bible that tells us we are to be cowed into silence just because someone is elected. The POTUS is our employee, not our lord.[/quote]

No, we are not to be cowed into silence, but we are commanded by the Most High God to hold the man who we elect into the office in esteem. If we don't we are in sin and are bring reproach on our personal testimony and upon the church at large. He (whatever a POTUS is,) is our employee, but we elected to give him the position that God has ordained to be held in high esteem. Sure in our current form of government, we have the ability through contacting our elected Congressman and Senators, of voicing our disagreement with current policy or upcoming decisions, but we HAD BETTER DO IT in a way prescribed by God or we are in sin...plain and simple.

The fact of the matter is that we belong to a different Kingdom and have dual citizenship, but the Superior King our Heavenly Land, has told just how we are to conduct ourselves over on this shore. If you and do not, WE WILL answer to the King when we get home.

[color=#0000FF]1Ti 2:1 [b]I exhort therefore, that, first of all[/b], supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] [b]giving of thanks[/b], be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 [b]For kings[/b], and [for] [b]all that are in authority[/b];[/color] [[u]why[/u], insert mine] [color=#0000FF] that [b]we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.[/b]
1Ti 2:3 For [b]this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God [/b]our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.[/color]

Though we do not agree with the policies of Barak Obama, he should look at the Christian community and say, "I wish I could get America to operate like that!"

Bro. Ben[/quote]

Not popular, but true.

Isn't it ironic that Jesus submitted to a crooked and unjust government and told His 12 to do the same, pl;us Paul led by the Holy Spirit wrote for us to submit to those who are over us. But yet man keeps right on rebelling against their government and feel they are justified to do so.

Also many of them will use our forefathers rebelling against England as an excuse to rebel against our present day government.

Seems to me the only time we have an excuse not to obey our government is when they tell us to do something that is a sin against God the Father of Christ our Savior.

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Amen, Bro. Jerry. You commented:

Also many of them will use our forefathers rebelling against England as an excuse to rebel against our present day government.

Seems to me the only time we have an excuse not to obey our government is when they tell us to do something that is a sin against God the Father of Christ our Savior.


Isn't this kind of like situational ethics? We flare when we see someone justifying some "other" ungodly deed, but when it is "our cause," we seem to have tunnel vision. I like quotes from the early church fathers, they are very interesting, and a window into the attitude in the early church, BUT, they are still just quotes by men and therefore I am not to use them as the sole justification for my doctrinal decisions and actions. Some of those great fathers were, well, wrong. Likewise some use scripture out of context. For example:

Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Someone might easily think this is the open door to rebellion against all authority, but it is only permission by God to speak the truth in love to those who had missed Christ as Messiah. God's heartbeat was for the Gospel to go to the Jew first and then to the Gentile, therefore they had to disobey the command by (note who) the (eroneous) religious authorities.

I know the following is a big passage of scripture, but it is so good and so applicable for such a time as this.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:
1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.
1Pe 3:13 And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Pe 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

When we humble ourselves and submit to the greater authority, Christ, and render not evil (our poor attempt to put others in their "right place,") for their evil (which lost people will naturally do,) we will give God an opportunity to use us, perhaps to win someone to Christ through it all. Isn't that what it's really all about anyways?

Bro. Ben
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I can agree with some of your points, but not all of them. I'm not going to argue, nor comment anymore in this thread, but I do believe that you need to study the history of the founding of this country a little more in depth. Granted, there were people who just wanted to throw off the yoke of England, but it went very much deeper than that.

POTUS stands for President of the United States. I respect the office. I do not respect the man who has supposedly been chosen. And I don't have to, thank you. He is so anti-Biblical it isn't funny. I will pray for the man as POTUS, and I will pray that he gets saved (a friend of ours who pastors a new church in his neck of the woods has tried to make contact with him to talk to him about the Lord).

Our founding fathers did all that they could to work with the crown. The crown didn't want to work with the colonies. He simply wanted them to roll over and do whatever he said. That was a gigantic contributing factor to the founding of this country as a constitutional republic - no man is king (but we could say that the citizens are, since the elected are our employees).

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Bro. John, you asked,


1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
1Pe 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Well...(as I lean my head forward for some smacking,) We either are going to obey or disobey that clear command. We are never told to rebel against our government, (and someone please don't jump in and give an O.T. example because we are under the New Covenant and our battle is for a "life," not a "land.") The reason we are a nation of rebels is because we were born of rebellion. I don't care how "godly" our founding fathers were, they were mostly influenced by Calvin's Reformed Dominion Theology which justifies righteous war, you know, "Kill them all and let God sort out the bodies, the elect will go to heaven."

We should have submitted, prayed, fasted, and honored the king, and God (you know, King of all kings,) would have given us what we needed accoarding to His greater wisdom.

Happy Christian, you said:


No, we are not to be cowed into silence, but we are commanded by the Most High God to hold the man who we elect into the office in esteem. If we don't we are in sin and are bring reproach on our personal testimony and upon the church at large. He (whatever a POTUS is,) is our employee, but we elected to give him the position that God has ordained to be held in high esteem. Sure in our current form of government, we have the ability through contacting our elected Congressman and Senators, of voicing our disagreement with current policy or upcoming decisions, but we HAD BETTER DO IT in a way prescribed by God or we are in sin...plain and simple.

The fact of the matter is that we belong to a different Kingdom and have dual citizenship, but the Superior King our Heavenly Land, has told just how we are to conduct ourselves over on this shore. If you and do not, WE WILL answer to the King when we get home.

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; [why, insert mine] that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Though we do not agree with the policies of Barak Obama, he should look at the Christian community and say, "I wish I could get America to operate like that!"

Bro. Ben


:goodpost:

I'm one who grew up believing the Founding Fathers were right and justified in virtually all they did. I believed and defended this for many years even after being saved. However, when I actually looked at what Scripture says and then compared it to what was done with regards to the American Revolution I was dismayed to see that the Founders didn't act in a biblical manner.

If the Founders were biblically justified in what they did then any of us today, and actually anyone during the course of the past several decades (and one could argue anyone during the past 150 years) could rise up in rebellion and be just as biblically justified or more so. All the reasons the Founders listed for rebelling against England are far more profound today. Interestingly, while many preach the Founders were biblically justified in what they did, they don't believe folks doing the same thing today would be biblically justified.
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[quote="PreacherBen"]Amen, Bro. Jerry. You commented:

[quote]Also many of them will use our forefathers rebelling against England as an excuse to rebel against our present day government.

Seems to me the only time we have an excuse not to obey our government is when they tell us to do something that is a sin against God the Father of Christ our Savior.[/quote]

Isn't this kind of like situational ethics? We flare when we see someone justifying some "other" ungodly deed, but when it is "our cause," we seem to have tunnel vision. I like quotes from the early church fathers, they are very interesting, and a window into the attitude in the early church, BUT, they are still just quotes by men and therefore I am not to use them as the sole justification for my doctrinal decisions and actions. Some of those great fathers were, well, wrong. Likewise some use scripture out of context. For example:

[color=#0000FF]Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, [b]We ought to obey God rather than men[/b].[/color]

Someone might easily think this is the open door to rebellion against all authority, but it is only permission by God to speak the truth in love to those who had missed Christ as Messiah. God's heartbeat was for the Gospel to go to the Jew first and then to the Gentile, therefore they had to disobey the command by (note who) the (eroneous) religious authorities.

I know the following is a big passage of scripture, but it is so good and so applicable for such a time as this.

[color=#0000FF]1Pe 3:8 Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, [b]having compassion[/b] one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [b][be] courteous[/b]:
1Pe 3:9 [b]Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.[/b]
1Pe 3:10 [u]For he that will love life, and see good days[/u], [b]let him refrain his tongue from evil[/b], and his lips that they speak no guile:
1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; [b]let him seek peace[/b], and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12 [u]For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.[/u]
1Pe 3:13 And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
1Pe 3:14 [b]But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: [/b]and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe 3:15 [u]But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: [/u]
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, [b]they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.[/b]
1Pe 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. [/color]

When we humble ourselves and submit to the greater authority, Christ, and render not evil (our poor attempt to put others in their "right place,") for their evil (which lost people will naturally do,) we will give God an opportunity to use us, perhaps to win someone to Christ through it all. Isn't that what it's really all about anyways?

Bro. Ben[/quote]

Who are these early church fathers you speak of? I believe you mentioned the before. When I hear 'early church fathers' I think of the RCC and its history of false teachings.

But one does not have to use what some man said or wrote, all they need is the Bible and its principles to see what has been right and or wrong in the past or present time.

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Jerry,
When I speak of church father, I am speaking about men of biblical faith. These are mainly from the early church prior to it's Constantinian corruption into the RCC. There is a good book out called 'A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs,' by David W. Bercot. He basically goes to the post-Apostolic fathers, men lead to the Lord by the Apostles, and their converts, and catalogs comments they made of different issues. Though, clearly, it is not scripture, it is a neat window into the atmosphere of the early church.

Ben

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Jerry,
When I speak of church father, I am speaking about men of biblical faith. These are mainly from the early church prior to it's Constantinian corruption into the RCC. There is a good book out called 'A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs,' by David W. Bercot. He basically goes to the post-Apostolic fathers, men lead to the Lord by the Apostles, and their converts, and catalogs comments they made of different issues. Though, clearly, it is not scripture, it is a neat window into the atmosphere of the early church.

Ben



Thanks for clearing that up. But using that expression many will think your referring back to the early RCC so called church fathers.



Great post...PreacherBen. :thumb Yes, there is a HUGE difference when referring to the "church fathers" as Pastor Jerry said. Those of "Biblical faith" do give a glance into the "converts" who were a part of the early Christian church, though. :-)
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