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1Timothy115

The Pope Steps Down

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Within the pages of the New Testament Jesus' New Testament Church is clearly described. It does take effort on our part to learn exactly what a New Testament Church is like.

 

This is something each person needs to decide for their self. If I laid it out many would disagree. This is something I studied out for myself, not taking anyone's word, & coming to my own conclusion. 

 

When we are saved God puts a thirst, desire, within us for His Word, to know His truths, to follow His truths. Its up to each of us to go to the Bible, study it, & learn of Him. So that we can divide the Word of the truth & truly take up our cross, deny self & follow Jesus.

 

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

Learn the Bible, study it, & compare the church you attend to what the Bible teaches. And if it matches up to what the Bible teaches, your in a good church, if not, its time to search for good one.

 

Remember this, your responsible for your self. When your judged, you will be judged for what you have done. Therefore take what any man proclaims, compare it to the Bible, & only believe them if what they preach, teach matches what is in the pages of the Bible.

 

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I'm unsure of having my own interpretation of what I read from God's Word because 2 Peter 1:20-21 forbids us of privately interpreting the Bible. What did the early Christians do before they had a Bible? I think it was around the 4th century. The KJV didn't come about until the 17th century. I wonder what the early Christians did.

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Of course it is a sincere question. Thank you for the information. After you accept Jesus as your Lord like Romans says, then do you have to be baptized to enter into the body of Christ like it says in John 3:5? This is where I get confused.


You actually get baptized (fully immersed) into the body of Christ the moment you believe, this baptism is spiritual and administered by the Holy Spirit of God. Most confusion with baptism in the Bible is because there are more than 5 different types of baptism in the New Testament alone, and not all of them involve water, one imparticular involves fire and you certainly don't want to pray for that baptism!

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

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You actually get baptized (fully immersed) into the body of Christ the moment you believe, this baptism is spiritual and administered by the Holy Spirit of God. Most confusion with baptism in the Bible is because there are more than 5 different types of baptism in the New Testament alone, and not all of them involve water, one imparticular involves fire and you certainly don't want to pray for that baptism!

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Is it possible that when Acts was written that they already knew John 3:5 and thought it would be redundent to repeat themself? Otherwise it would be pointless for Jesus to say baptism is water and spirit and then the apostles turn around and nullify the water part. If you can be spiritually baptized then no one would feel the need to get dunked in water.

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I'm unsure of having my own interpretation of what I read from God's Word because 2 Peter 1:20-21 forbids us of privately interpreting the Bible.


The truth is there is only one interpretation of scripture, and that must come through the One who wrote it, the Spirit of God. Every Christian has the indwelling Spirit within them to interpret, teach, and guide into all truth.

Remember though, the Christian starts off as a baby in Christ and needs to grow, so like babies God feeds us the milk of the word first and then later meat when we are grown up enough to digest it, God will only teach you certain things from the Bible when you are spiritually mature and ready to receive them.

Isaiah 28:9-10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. [10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

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The truth is there is only one interpretation of scripture, and that must come through the One who wrote it, the Spirit of God. Every Christian has the indwelling Spirit within them to interpret, teach, and guide into all truth.

Remember though, the Christian starts off as a baby in Christ and needs to grow, so like babies God feeds us the milk of the word first and then later meat when we are grown up enough to digest it, God will only teach you certain things from the Bible when you are spiritually mature and ready to receive them.

Isaiah 28:9-10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. [10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

That makes sense. If there's one interpretation why do so many people interpret differently? If two people disagree on an interpretation and they are both filled with the Spirit, who's interpretation is correct?

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Is it possible that when Acts was written that they already knew John 3:5 and thought it would be redundent to repeat themself? Otherwise it would be pointless for Jesus to say baptism is water and spirit and then the apostles turn around and nullify the water part. If you can be spiritually baptized then no one would feel the need to get dunked in water.


In the New Testament, water baptism is a Christian ceremony that takes place after Spiritual baptism, two separate baptisms, the first is performed by God within a person at the time of belief, and the 2nd is performed by man, usually a pastor or minister, by fully immersing the new Christian in water in front of the church and others as a testimony of his new belief. Water baptism is purely a public testimony which is a picture of salvation, it does not save a person! In fact there are some Christians who have never been baptised in water yet they are still saved and on their way to heaven because they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

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That makes sense. If there's one interpretation why do so many people interpret differently? If two people disagree on an interpretation and they are both filled with the Spirit, who's interpretation is correct?


A Christian can still ignore and disobey the guidance of the Holy Spirit and choose his own thoughts and ways instead of God's, free will still exists and so does our old rebellious nature (the old man). Ultimately the Bible (KJB) is the authority, there is only one interpretation, if two disagree on it then one or both of them are wrong!

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In the New Testament, water baptism is a Christian ceremony that takes place after Spiritual baptism, two separate baptisms, the first is performed by God within a person at the time of belief, and the 2nd is performed by man, usually a pastor or minister, by fully immersing the new Christian in water in front of the church and others as a testimony of his new belief. Water baptism is purely a public testimony which is a picture of salvation, it does not save a person! In fact there are some Christians who have never been baptised in water yet they are still saved and on their way to heaven because they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. My interpretation God feeds me is based on Jesus, saying in order to be born again it must be through water and spirit (John 3:5). If you notice in the John's gospel the Holy Ghost does not come upon Jesus until after he is baptized with water. I cannot find anywhere in the Bible that a water baptism is a ceremony or testimony to a spiritual baptism. I appreciate your insight.

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A Christian can still ignore and disobey the guidance of the Holy Spirit and choose his own thoughts and ways instead of God's, free will still exists and so does our old rebellious nature (the old man). Ultimately the Bible (KJB) is the authority, there is only one interpretation, if two disagree on it then one or both of them are wrong!

That would make sense. Matthew 18:17 talks about that exact thing. If a man refuses to listen then you take it to the church. I looked up the word church. In Greek its ecclesia, which means congregation. So there must of been some sort of early church congregation that you could take your disputes to and had the final say on who's interpretation was right. I agree only one interpretation can be right.

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A Christian can still ignore and disobey the guidance of the Holy Spirit and choose his own thoughts and ways instead of God's, free will still exists and so does our old rebellious nature (the old man). Ultimately the Bible (KJB) is the authority, there is only one interpretation, if two disagree on it then one or both of them are wrong!

What did Christians do before the Bible was put together in the 4th century? There had to of been some authority before KJB.

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We'll have to agree to disagree on that. My interpretation God feeds me is based on Jesus, saying in order to be born again it must be through water and spirit (John 3:5). If you notice in the John's gospel the Holy Ghost does not come upon Jesus until after he is baptized with water. I cannot find anywhere in the Bible that a water baptism is a ceremony or testimony to a spiritual baptism. I appreciate your insight.


John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The water in John 3:5 is defined in verse 6, it is being born of the flesh, so it's a reference to the water in the womb which breaks before the baby is born. The Spirit is also defined in verse 6 as being the spirit birth, which is what takes place the moment one believes in Christ as their Saviour. Note that there is no mention of baptism anywhere in the verses or surrounding verses, so to interpret this is referring to water baptism is incorrect.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

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What did Christians do before the Bible was put together in the 4th century? There had to of been some authority before KJB.


They had the word of God, there existed manuscripts with recorded scripture on them.

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They had the word of God, there existed manuscripts with recorded scripture on them.

I agree, but before the Bible was combined there were other gospels like the gospel of Peter and heretical books. If you were an early Christian in that case, how would you know what manuscipts to read? The Holy Ghost had not descended upon the council of Nicea yet to decide which books belonged in the Bible. This is the part of history I'm very fascinated about because this is where it all began.

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I agree, but before the Bible was combined there were other gospels like the gospel of Peter and heretical books. If you were an early Christian in that case, how would you know what manuscipts to read? The Holy Ghost had not descended upon the council of Nicea yet to decide which books belonged in the Bible. This is the part of history I'm very fascinated about because this is where it all began.


They had the Holy Spirit to guide them to the inspired scripture, plus they would have faced the same challenges we do today with what is good reading and what isn't, what is true and what is false.

I am also fascinated with church history, hence why I corrected you initially about the RCC, I studied it thoroughly when I did my theology degree, I think learning some church history is a must for every born again believer, it's important to know your roots.

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They had the Holy Spirit to guide them to the inspired scripture, plus they would have faced the same challenges we do today with what is good reading and what isn't, what is true and what is false.

I am also fascinated with church history, hence why I corrected you initially about the RCC, I studied it thoroughly when I did my theology degree, I think learning some church history is a must for every born again believer, it's important to know your roots.

Church history is very fascinating indeed. Since most people then did not know how to read and didn't have copies of the pre-Bible scripture then someone or something had to of had authority. When I read about the early Christians there's no mention of reading anything and I can't find anyone using the phrase "accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior" or alter call or sinners prayer until way after the reformation. Early Christians talk a lot about tradition. What tradition are they referring to?

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John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The water in John 3:5 is defined in verse 6, it is being born of the flesh, so it's a reference to the water in the womb which breaks before the baby is born. The Spirit is also defined in verse 6 as being the spirit birth, which is what takes place the moment one believes in Christ as their Saviour. Note that there is no mention of baptism anywhere in the verses or surrounding verses, so to interpret this is referring to water baptism is incorrect.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I've heard others talk about John 3:5 referring to amniotic fluid. If you read verses 1-6 of chapter 3 Jesus is talking to Nicodemus, a Pharisee. Jesus tells Nicodemus how to be saved, or born again. In fact Nicodemus asks how can a man be born again if he is old. Jesus says to be born (again) it must be through water and spirit. We are born the first time in amniotic fluid, and one cannot crawl back into the womb to be born again. It would be physically impossible for Jesus to be referring to water and spirit in John 3:5 as amniotic fluid.

 

In Matthew 3:16 Jesus is baptized by water first, then the heavens opened and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus. Water and then spirit. Someone mentioned there are different kinds of baptism, immersion being one of them. To be baptized by fire is a reference to being baptized by the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit is referred to as fire in the Bible. Since there are other types of water baptism, such as sprinkling or pouring, to say immersion is the only correct baptism would also be inaccurate.

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That's fascinating. I'm a Christian history buff and read church history. From what I gather there were what you would call "anti-popes." They were people claiming to be the pope while the real pope was in office. I would bet Joan was an anti-pope. Sometimes years would go by and you would have several anti-popes along with the real pope. Imagine the confusion!

 

Yep, and we all know God is not the author of confusion.

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We'll have to agree to disagree on that. My interpretation God feeds me is based on Jesus, saying in order to be born again it must be through water and spirit (John 3:5). If you notice in the John's gospel the Holy Ghost does not come upon Jesus until after he is baptized with water. I cannot find anywhere in the Bible that a water baptism is a ceremony or testimony to a spiritual baptism. I appreciate your insight.

 

  Revelation 1:5   And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,  

Revelation 1:6   And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Have you taken time to consider the above?

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Church history is very fascinating indeed. Since most people then did not know how to read and didn't have copies of the pre-Bible scripture then someone or something had to of had authority. When I read about the early Christians there's no mention of reading anything and I can't find anyone using the phrase "accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior" or alter call or sinners prayer until way after the reformation. Early Christians talk a lot about tradition. What tradition are they referring to?

 

Of sharing the letters of the Apostles for one. Like this...

 

Colossians 4:16   And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

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  Revelation 1:5   And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,  

Revelation 1:6   And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Have you taken time to consider the above?

I couldn't agree more, but Revelation 1:5-6 doesn't nullify being baptized by spirit AND water (John 3:5). In fact I would say it's all of the above. We are saved by the blood of Christ (Revelation 1:5-6 and other verses) but we are also saved by water and spirit. It doesn't have to be either or, it can and is both.

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Of sharing the letters of the Apostles for one. Like this...

 

Colossians 4:16   And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

Ah so there were actual churches (congregation or ecclesia in Greek). Not only is the church the body of Christ (and I agree from earlier) but there had to of been actual churches with ministers reading scripture before the Bible was completed in the 4th century. You picked an excellent verse in Colossians 4:16 to prove that. When you read early church history they called ministers bishops I believe. The Greek word for bishop is episkopos which means "overseer" and would fit as an early type of preacher or minister.

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I couldn't agree more, but Revelation 1:5-6 doesn't nullify being baptized by spirit AND water (John 3:5). In fact I would say it's all of the above. We are saved by the blood of Christ (Revelation 1:5-6 and other verses) but we are also saved by water and spirit. It doesn't have to be either or, it can and is both.

 

Are you a member of a Church of Christ?

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I'm unsure of having my own interpretation of what I read from God's Word because 2 Peter 1:20-21 forbids us of privately interpreting the Bible. What did the early Christians do before they had a Bible? I think it was around the 4th century. The KJV didn't come about until the 17th century. I wonder what the early Christians did.

 

 

The Christians had the Old Testament and also the gospels and aso epistles from the beginning.

 

There was no such thing as printing, so all the copies were manuscripts. 

 

When the Roman Catholic Church came into being they tried to destroy learning, and were so successful that within a short time very few apart from priests and monks could read.  This was known as the dark ages.  Because no one else could read, the pope could teach what he liked and no one could challenge him.  Eventually it got to the stage where even  very few of the clergy could read.   During these dark ages, there were always christians who held to the truth of the bible.  The pope didn't like this and tried his best to exterminate these christians over the ages.  He actually conducted many "crusades" against the true christians.  To encourage people to join the crusades, the Pope decreed that all property of 'heretics' should be forfeited with those who fought getting a portion but the bulk of these ill gotten gains going to the bishops and the papacy.  They also tried to make the 'heretics' appear sub human (Hitler did the same regarding the Jews) by saying that 'heretics' all had black teeth and hairy tongues. 

 

One man inlisted in the crusading army, wrote to his confessor, "Holy father" he wrote, "Not only do 'heretics' appear normal, but all, including the children could read and write."  This was at a time when very few priests and monks could read and write.  When you think about it, they would have to  have been able to read and write to be able to tenaciously hold on to true bible teaching against the corrupt teachings of the church of Rome, through centuries of persecution.  In a report on one group of 'heretics' there was mention of a class amongst them called Notarii.  The main duty of a notary is to accurately copy documents, and we can assume that the duty of these Notarii was to faithfully copy the scriptures.   

Edited by Invicta

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The Christians had the Old Testament and also the gospels and aso epistles from the beginning.

 

There was no such thing as printing, so all the copies were manuscripts. 

 

When the Roman Catholic Church came into being they tried to destroy learning, and were so successful that within a short time very few apart from priests and monks could read.  This was known as the dark ages.  Because no one else could read, the pope could teach what he liked and no one could challenge him.  Eventually it got to the stage where even  very few of the clergy could read.   During these dark ages, there were always christians who held to the truth of the bible.  The pope didn't like this and tried his best to exterminate these christians over the ages.  He actually conducted many "crusades" against the true christians.  To encourage people to join the crusades, the Pope decreed that all property of 'heretics' should be forfeited with those who fought getting a portion but the bulk of these ill gotten gains going to the bishops and the papacy.  They also tried to make the 'heretics' appear sub human (Hitler did the same regarding the Jews) by saying that 'heretics' all had black teeth and hairy tongues. 

 

One man inlisted in the crusading army, wrote to his confessor, "Holy father" he wrote, "Not only do 'heretics' appear normal, but all, including the children could read and write."  This was at a time when very few priests and monks could read and write.  When you think about it, they would have to  have been able to read and write to be able to tenaciously hold on to true bible teaching against the corrupt teachings of the church of Rome, through centuries of persecution.  In a report on one group of 'heretics' there was mention of a class amongst them called Notarii.  The main duty of a notary is to accurately copy documents, and we can assume that the duty of these Notarii was to faithfully copy the scriptures.   

I don't want to come across like I'm "defending" the RCC but where did you hear that? I have a hard time believeing that a pope would prevent people from reading and that there were other (true) Christians underground that all could read the Bible. I'm pretty sure during that time most people couldn't read anyways. In fact over 50% of the world's population cannot read today. Mostly in 3rd world countries. Before the printing press it would cost a years wage to buy a hand written Bible. I forgot how many sheep skins it took to write the Bible but it was over 100. The Bible was not the only book chained but all books in all learning facilities because books were so expensive. I read a lot of history, it's a passion. Whomever these first Christians were in the 1st and 2nd century must have written documents. After the apostles passed away and the next generation of Christians came about who were some of these true Christian believers and what documents did they write so I can read about them? Something that talks about the origin of the sinners prayer, altar call, and Bible authority.

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Are you a member of a Church of Christ?

I belong to a Christian church, yes. I desire to read the Bible like the early Christians did. They seemed to be masters of scripture. If you read sermons from the 1st and 2nd century there sermons were amazing! It was never just a verse, they would read from the Old Testament and then from the New Testament and the readings would tie in together, something from the old would be revealed in the new. Amazing stuff!

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