Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

RSS Robot

Guns: 'packing Heat In Church' Increasingly Allowed In U.s.

Recommended Posts

I suppose if a church is 501©3 registered, the state/federal legislature can regulate church actions. When churches are registered for non-profit status they relinquish many rights to the state, and are then granted some of the privileges back by the state. This would provide the ability for the state to regulate church activities. The silly thing is that churches are already non-profit without registering for 501©3 status.

When was it not allowed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's not make this yet another thread about gun carrying in general......

The point is the law is allowing people to have them in church.

I for one, being in another country with different laws, simply assumed that over there the same laws applied inside and out. If legal to carry it to the door, it would be legal to carry it inside.
Of course any establishment should have the right to refuse entry (that's another issue again).

I have never heard that it is illegal to have a gun in church here - if you are licenced to carry a gun, then you could carry it into church.
If you walked in with a rifle, I would discuss with you how we would keep it safe from the kids, and whether you really need to bring it next time - but the culture is different here.

I think this thread issue possibly stems from the catholic thing of a church being a "place of refuge".
This is yet another thing that they have corrupted - the cities of refuge were God's command to Israel, and were cities that had nothing to do with church - another example of replacement theology.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's not make this yet another thread about gun carrying in general......

The point is the law is allowing people to have them in church.

I for one, being in another country with different laws, simply assumed that over there the same laws applied inside and out. If legal to carry it to the door, it would be legal to carry it inside.
Of course any establishment should have the right to refuse entry (that's another issue again).

I have never heard that it is illegal to have a gun in church here - if you are licenced to carry a gun, then you could carry it into church.
If you walked in with a rifle, I would discuss with you how we would keep it safe from the kids, and whether you really need to bring it next time - but the culture is different here.

I think this thread issue possibly stems from the catholic thing of a church being a "place of refuge".
This is yet another thing that they have corrupted - the cities of refuge were God's command to Israel, and were cities that had nothing to do with church - another example of replacement theology.

 

 

I am not sure that is what the church as a place of refuge comes from.  In cities they had walls.  Villages did not.  The church was the stronghold ww=here people could shelter in time of trouble.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A church is private property.  On any private property the owner and guests should be allowed to open carry or carry concealed, it's none of the government's business.

 

I think that having firearms in the church is desecration.  Just as when Jews had arms in the temple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that having firearms in the church is desecration.  Just as when Jews had arms in the temple.

 

That's not surprising, you seem to view them as evil.  Americans view them as necessary to protect against evil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does this mean Christians are not to trust God in all situations and circumstance? Christians are not to trust and obey God, walking in His will rather than our own?

 

There you go again John81, shaking up the milk bottles. The kind of meat you discuss can't be easily digested. What are you trying to do, make folks sick?

 

Speaking of your right to a carry. I think this argument is silly from a law enforcement view. Everyone obsessed with obtaining this permit has a rigious road ahead applying for it and when they finally get it (some states harder than others). 

What is it that they think they got? Only the right to carry concealed. Zero right to ever flash that pistol in public comes with it. Any incident that occurs in church or out will be dealt with as a separate criminal incident with multiple charges whether you think you were in the right or not. The CCW protects you from NO criminal charge if you ever pull it. And if you ever do, you better have many witnesses that will testify that is was 100% without a doubt unavoidable that you did pull it (let alone fire it in public) and zero witnesses that have a doubt about you doing it.

All that CCW will do for a civilian is ruin your life and ensure that once you are charged and prosecuted, you will never be able to legally own a bullet again, much less a firearm. Yeah, if enough people will testify that you had absolutely no other choice but to pull (and what are the odds of that by the way?), you may avoid jail time, but regardless, you can kiss them guns goodbye forever.

 

Having a gun in the home is one thing, CCW is just downright immaturity and foolishness, even from a carnal perspective. If there is a potential for an active shooter incident in your church, the preacher and deacons should have rifles with them then I suspect (that is-if there is a real threat).

 

Guns (like money) ain't evil my brothers. But the love of them is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CCW is just downright immaturity and foolishness, even from a carnal perspective.

 

So when three thugs walk up to your wife in the supermarket parking lot, shoot you and throw her in their car and drive off, who's the fool?

 

There's a silly saying that applies here, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand your reasoning brother, I really do. Just think the risks are too great to carry for a civilian and they are way to likely to flash, show off or worst yet pull when they are not 100% legally untouchable and you pretty much have to be shot yourself first for that protection.

Edited by wretched

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The real issue is do we believe the Word of God, do we really trust God in difficult situations or do we only trust God when it's easy to do so.

 

Christ said we are to willingly suffer assault, robbery and kidnapping in accord with His Word and example. Christ commanded we overcome evil with good. Christ commanded that Christians are to follow His teachings in such matters and not the Old Testament way of eye for eye. Christians are told that vengence belongs to God alone, we are to love our enemies, pray for them, care for them.

 

All very hard sayings, as some in Jesus' time admitted. We are told to remember that God's ways are not our ways and following His ways seems foolish to the world.

 

We have the clear example of Christ, His Apostles and even the early Christians who understood these commands and obeyed them. This was common, accepted practice of Christians until the time of Constantine and the uplifting of the false church of the RCC, the uniting of "christianity" and government, and the mingling of the ways of man into the traditions of christianity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of the posts center around "If I am ... (attacked, etc)".

 

Question (and yes, I've been in this type situation), what if someone else (stranger, you don't know if they are saved or not) is being violently attacked and you happen across it.  Do you leave (if you don't leave, you may be next), call 911, and hope they make it okay -- or do you at least attempt to help (ie, seek to stop the attack) whether by tire iron, screwdriver (assuming your hand tools are in the vehicle or on your pouch because you are at work), knife, etc?

Edited by Old fashioned

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The real issue is do we believe the Word of God, do we really trust God in difficult situations or do we only trust God when it's easy to do so.

 

Christ said we are to willingly suffer assault, robbery and kidnapping in accord with His Word and example. Christ commanded we overcome evil with good. Christ commanded that Christians are to follow His teachings in such matters and not the Old Testament way of eye for eye. Christians are told that vengence belongs to God alone, we are to love our enemies, pray for them, care for them.

 

All very hard sayings, as some in Jesus' time admitted. We are told to remember that God's ways are not our ways and following His ways seems foolish to the world.

 

We have the clear example of Christ, His Apostles and even the early Christians who understood these commands and obeyed them. This was common, accepted practice of Christians until the time of Constantine and the uplifting of the false church of the RCC, the uniting of "christianity" and government, and the mingling of the ways of man into the traditions of christianity.

 

Agreed. I struggle every day all day with the question: Do I really believe this stuff or not. I know I do so why do I keep caring about things of the world? I don't want to be a 3 a week/10% lukewarm anymore. Convenient and comfortable ain't the way, I know it in my heart just a sissy in the flesh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of the posts center around "If I am ... (attacked, etc)".

 

Question (and yes, I've been in this type situation), what if someone else (stranger, you don't know if they are saved or not) is being violently attacked and you happen across it.  Do you leave (if you don't leave, you may be next), call 911, and hope they make it okay -- or do you at least attempt to help (ie, seek to stop the attack) whether by tire iron, screwdriver (assuming your hand tools are in the vehicle or on your pouch because you are at work), knife, etc?

I have faced a similar situation and I placed myself between the attacker and attacked as the attacked moved to safety. No weapons involved, no fighting necessary on my part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I called of a group of thugs (to the distress of my wife) who were beating a guy in a carpark.
I yelled at them - I yell pretty loud - and that distracted them.from their task enough for them to realise that enough was enough.

I had no weapons at all, and I was fearful of their reaction, but I couldn't stand by and do nothing.

I did keep my distance and don't know what I would have done if they had ignored me.

But I don't think a gun would have changed anything - unless it was them who had guns - in which case I am certain the guy would be dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand your reasoning brother, I really do. Just think the risks are too great to carry for a civilian and they are way to likely to flash, show off or worst yet pull when they are not 100% legally untouchable and you pretty much have to be shot yourself first for that protection.

 

 

Firearm ownership comes with it a great responsibility.  Because some fools cannot act and follow the rules does not make it right to disarm everyone else.  The penalties should be harsh and act as the deterrent.

 

Most of the posts center around "If I am ... (attacked, etc)".

 

Question (and yes, I've been in this type situation), what if someone else (stranger, you don't know if they are saved or not) is being violently attacked and you happen across it.  Do you leave (if you don't leave, you may be next), call 911, and hope they make it okay -- or do you at least attempt to help (ie, seek to stop the attack) whether by tire iron, screwdriver (assuming your hand tools are in the vehicle or on your pouch because you are at work), knife, etc?

 

In my state we can engage this attacker with our weapon.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking of your right to a carry. I think this argument is silly from a law enforcement view. Everyone obsessed with obtaining this permit has a rigious road ahead applying for it and when they finally get it (some states harder than others). 

What is it that they think they got? Only the right to carry concealed. Zero right to ever flash that pistol in public comes with it. Any incident that occurs in church or out will be dealt with as a separate criminal incident with multiple charges whether you think you were in the right or not. The CCW protects you from NO criminal charge if you ever pull it. And if you ever do, you better have many witnesses that will testify that is was 100% without a doubt unavoidable that you did pull it (let alone fire it in public) and zero witnesses that have a doubt about you doing it.

All that CCW will do for a civilian is ruin your life and ensure that once you are charged and prosecuted, you will never be able to legally own a bullet again, much less a firearm. Yeah, if enough people will testify that you had absolutely no other choice but to pull (and what are the odds of that by the way?), you may avoid jail time, but regardless, you can kiss them guns goodbye foreve

 

I can't speak for every state or even every county in my home state, which varies widely depending on their level of liberality, but here our Law enforcement officers encourage concealed carry.  On a normal day there are only a couple of deputies patrolling here, and it could take as long as 30-45 minutes for them to respond.  In this situation if it is life or death and you have to defend yourself it comes down to a choice, be carried by 6 or judged by 12.

 

Zero right to flash a weapon is not correct, at least where I live.  Nobody should ever pull a gun unless they feel they are in a life threatening situation, with the intent to defend yourself.  If you are a valid CCW license holder and had to un-holster a gun in this situation, and the attacker flees that is not illegal.  I can not imagine many other reasons to "flash" a gun.  In fact in this state Open carry does not require a license, but concealed carry does.  How does that equate to not flashing a gun?  

 

All that CCW will do for a civilian is ruin your life and ensure that once you are charged and prosecuted, you will never be able to legally own a bullet again, much less a firearm

 

I personally know many people who are alive today because of CCW.  In addition crime rates in states that have CCW have dropped, sometimes dramatically.  In gun free zones such as New York and DC, the crime rates are the highest.  This kind of mindset to me is nothing more than the equivalence of Philosophy to Biblical education.  Someones opinion to achieve their political end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know, I think anyone.should have the right to get a gun licence - but surely there can be no argument that says a person with a severely violent and unstable history should be.legally allowed to own a gun.

If for instance, you had a guy who had been convicted of several armed holdups, where the firearm was discharged and people deliberately wounded or even people killed - and when he gets out if prison - thanks to the legal system...... _ he is simply allowed to go and load up with firearms as soon as he walls out the prison door?

That is just dumb!

I do however think that anyone without such a risky background should be able to.

Doesn't change the point of this thread though - law outside and inside church should be the same. Legal outside = legal inside.
Individual organisations can make their own rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know, I think anyone.should have the right to get a gun licence - but surely there can be no argument that says a person with a severely violent and unstable history should be.legally allowed to own a gun.

If for instance, you had a guy who had been convicted of several armed holdups, where the firearm was discharged and people deliberately wounded or even people killed - and when he gets out if prison - thanks to the legal system...... _ he is simply allowed to go and load up with firearms as soon as he walls out the prison door?

That is just dumb!

I do however think that anyone without such a risky background should be able to.

Doesn't change the point of this thread though - law outside and inside church should be the same. Legal outside = legal inside.
Individual organisations can make their own rules.

Actually, for the Christian, the main concern should be what Christ taught, not what the governmental laws say; that's secondary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't speak for every state or even every county in my home state, which varies widely depending on their level of liberality, but here our Law enforcement officers encourage concealed carry.  On a normal day there are only a couple of deputies patrolling here, and it could take as long as 30-45 minutes for them to respond.  In this situation if it is life or death and you have to defend yourself it comes down to a choice, be carried by 6 or judged by 12.

 

Zero right to flash a weapon is not correct, at least where I live.  Nobody should ever pull a gun unless they feel they are in a life threatening situation, with the intent to defend yourself.  If you are a valid CCW license holder and had to un-holster a gun in this situation, and the attacker flees that is not illegal.  I can not imagine many other reasons to "flash" a gun.  In fact in this state Open carry does not require a license, but concealed carry does.  How does that equate to not flashing a gun?  

 

 

I personally know many people who are alive today because of CCW.  In addition crime rates in states that have CCW have dropped, sometimes dramatically.  In gun free zones such as New York and DC, the crime rates are the highest.  This kind of mindset to me is nothing more than the equivalence of Philosophy to Biblical education.  Someones opinion to achieve their political end.

Have it your way brother. There are more arguments my blood bag wants to make on this but i won't. I shouldn't have spouted off about it anyway. The whole subject of weapons of any type is for the dead and not the living "let the dead bury their dead".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know, I think anyone.should have the right to get a gun licence - but surely there can be no argument that says a person with a severely violent and unstable history should be.legally allowed to own a gun.

If for instance, you had a guy who had been convicted of several armed holdups, where the firearm was discharged and people deliberately wounded or even people killed - and when he gets out if prison - thanks to the legal system...... _ he is simply allowed to go and load up with firearms as soon as he walls out the prison door?

That is just dumb!

 

Then end of our 2nd Amendment says, "...shall not be infringed".  There shouldn't be a need for a license.  It's another chip away at our liberties.

 

The criminal who has served his time should not have selective rights restored.  All should be restored.  This too is a chip away of liberty for all.  The violent criminal as you describe should either stay in jail until natural death or make a quick trip to the gallows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't disagree with you, but when he is let out - as he will be in most places - would you sell him more guns?
No he has given up his rights by his actions.

The licence thing is a separate argument really.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't disagree with you, but when he is let out - as he will be in most places - would you sell him more guns?
No he has given up his rights by his actions.
 

The licence thing is a separate argument really.

 

I consider them linked.  However, yes, after a criminal has served his/her time all of their rights should be restored.  Since this little encroachment was allowed, every year more and more are disarmed by new laws and regulations.  It seems to me that one day  they may finally realize the freedoms lost when a lawman knocks down their door and takes away their BB gun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So someone who is a known nutter and violent criminal with a history of firearms offenses shouldstill be able to have free access to any firearms he wants to?

That is simply ridiculous.

Would you let a convicted child molester work in a child care centre?

If not, then why not? Isn't that taking away his rights also?

No, people can certainly disqualify themselves by their actions from certain "rights".
With rights come responsibilities.
If you refuse to take the responsibility, then you give up your rights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still ask of those who say carrying is not trusting in God, do you carry full insurance? Life, home, auto above what the law requires? Are these not taking our trust away from God just as much? "If I die my family will be protected by X number of dollars from my insurance" rather than "if I die God will take care of my family".

I carry none of them I do, however have a piece of property we own ourtright, where we are off-grid, and raise animals for milk, eggs and food, so should something happen to one of us, we have a place to live and food to eat and water to drink, and having these things, we are content. Oh, we do have guns, but for protection against wildlife, to protect our animals from dogs and lions and such. And to slaughter, so we can eat our goats. I believe God WILL take care of my family. If I have money when I die, it is my family's as well, so they have that-everything is in trust to the family, in their names, so no waiting for the state to release anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So someone who is a known nutter and violent criminal with a history of firearms offenses shouldstill be able to have free access to any firearms he wants to?

That is simply ridiculous.

Would you let a convicted child molester work in a child care centre?

If not, then why not? Isn't that taking away his rights also?

No, people can certainly disqualify themselves by their actions from certain "rights".
With rights come responsibilities.
If you refuse to take the responsibility, then you give up your rights.

 

I agree with you Dave 100 percent.  As most will know most all of these circumstances would disqualify people here in the states from being able to acquire a CCW permit.  

 

Let the liberals go and the honest citizens will be the only people who do not own guns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online   1 Member, 0 Anonymous, 14 Guests (See full list)

×
×
  • Create New...