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As to the lying bit...

 

Does this make the lie "right?"..... 

No.......

I am not defending or justifying lying........

I thought I would quote this for clarification of my post....

My only caution is not being too quick to condemn people in those positions, because the truth of the matter is that we do not know how we will respond under certain types of persecution.  Some Christians passed the test, other good men have not.  I cannot justify their sin, but I can't fault them either.  Who knows - I might have done the same thing if I were in their position....

 

John, my point about Wurbrand had nothing to do with whether he was truly born again or not....the point was the horrible extremes they went to in their torture of those Christians.  I always try to put myself in that situation to mentally work out in my own mind how I would respond to it....that was the point...I hope you got that part of it...

Edited by Steve Schwenke

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As to the lying bit.

I recall hearing about Richard Wurmbrand, author of Tortured for Christ, who also had this dilema.  The communists in Romania would routinely torture them to obtain information about other saints.  If you want to know about the unspeakable acts they did during the cold war years, get his book and read it.  It will make you think a little bit about just how depraved human beings can be.  The commies had/have all manner of methods to "break" a person. 

But the dilemna they faced was if they told the truth they would most certainly send their brothers and sisters in Christ to their deaths.  To remain silent was literally impossible.  So what "choice" did they have?  At some point the human psyche breaks down and self-preservation kicks in.  It takes an extreme amount of physical, emotional, and mental discipline and strength to remain silent and not give in to their torture. 

Before anybody gets all spiritual and says they should just not say anything rather than lie, I challenge you to read the accounts of the martyrs for Christ, and ask yourself if you could handle it or not.  My guess is that most of the talkers out there have a big fat loud mouth, but no guts to follow through, especially since they are so ignorant of how awful man's torture can really be.

My hope is that I would not give in, but I know that these demon-possessed people will stop at NOTHING to get their victims to respond.  I know where my weak spots are.  If I know, then assuredly my enemy knows also...and would prompt his pawns to use that weapon against me.  Only the grace of God could get me through it, because in my flesh, I will not be able to handle it. 

 

Does this make the lie "right?"  No.  But at the same time, I can't just pounce on those tortured saints and condemn them for protecting other saints.   I know the temptation would be the same for me as it was for them.   What would you do?  What would you do if it was you instead of Rahab? 

 

In general terms of everyday life, there is no equivocation. 

I am not defending or justifying lying.  I am simply saying that there are times when lying is actually a safeguard to other people - the Germans lying to the Nazis, etc.  We have a Scriptural obligation to protect and defend the defenseless.  Duties never conflict.

 

In past post on this board, myself, & a few others have made the statement of, "what we hope we would do if we were in those shoes," fully admitting that until we walk in those shoes, been there & done it, we can only say what we hope we would do. If you had been around here very long you would know who has said this.

 

The pastor of many local churches throughout this world standing behind the pulpit speaking God's truths many times speaking on what should be done in certain situations that he has not been tested, yet he still has to proclaim what is the right thing for the Christian to do.

 

 

Plus, whatever Jesus may call one of His brothers or sisters to go though in this life if that brother or sisters puts full faith in Jesus’, calls on Jesus, they can do anything. If they try on their own, they likely to fail.
 
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
 
In yesterday there were martyrs that died for the glory of Christ refusing to deny Him, refusing to lie, that many today look up to. Yet today's Christians more than likely would deny, lie, in order to save their life & claim they could do a lot more good by denying Jesus & lying to save their lives.

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Please send me your addresses so I can honor God and let them know where to find you.

Do you call yourself a "Christian" speaking like that? Better examine to see if you really are saved.

 

Mohan

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Do you call yourself a "Christian" speaking like that? Better examine to see if you really are saved.

 

Mohan

Let's not cast aspersion on someone's salvation, please. Christians often say things they oughtn't or phrase them incorrectly or in ways folks don't care for (such as the sarcastic irony in Uke's post) - that does not endanger our salvation, but rather our relational status with our Father.  All too often we jump to the question "are you sure you're saved" as a mode of attack against a statement.  Let's stop that, okay?

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Do you call yourself a "Christian" speaking like that? Better examine to see if you really are saved.

 

Mohan

Just making a point, that's all. I wouldn't really do it, but I will tell you, if they come for me, I will seek to protect those I can, and I WILL lie to the king to do so, if necessary, that the gospel may go in in my absence. Not saying anyone else should, but I am the one who will answer to the Lord for what I choose to do, should the need arise.

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I had a pastor who told me personally, standing in the foyer of the church, that he believed it was OK to lie in certain situations, such as to protect your family. He later proved his belief by bearing false withness

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This "to lie, or not to lie" gambit is a tough nut to crack. We first resort to our flesh to justify a lie that, in our minds, would never hurt anyone and would only help someone (i.e. Families harboring Jews during WWII). When that fails, or maybe just to supplement and bolster our stance, we try to pull verses from the Bible to justify lying for a good cause (i.e. The midwifes and Pharoh, Rahab and the spies, etc.)

 

I would first like to address the biblical standpoint of lying. As Jerry, John, and a few others have already pointed out, lying is a sin and an abomination before our Holy God. Period. When examining the scripture about the midwifes, we learn that they never lied. Yes, they disobeyed Pharoh's order, but never did they say, yes we carried out your command. Most likely, whenever a Hebrew woman was about to give birth, the midwifes took their sweet time getting to the house, so that when they arrived the baby was already born. Then they could tell Pharoh (truthfully) that the babies were already born when they arrived. I like how they even seemed to take a dig at the Egyptians by saying Hebrew women were more "lively" than the Egyptian women!

 

The instance with Rahab, we see an obvious lie. But look closer at it. While Rahab lied, she was not a "member" of God's chosen people. She was not a Hebrew. So in fact what we are seeing is a non-Hebrew telling a lie. God's people never told the lie, it was an outsider. So in this instance, we can't use that passage to justify telling a lie, even to save another person.

 

Now, before anyone starts jumping the gun and asking if I'm saying that I wouldn't tell a lie in order to save a life, the answer is no. I would not tell a lie, but I would most definitely not answer the question. Case in point: When the government wants to hide something from you, but at the same time cover themselves so they can't be accused of lying, they generally respond to pointed questions with "That is need to know information, and you do not need to know." Or, "I can neither confirm nor deny that..." I do not believe it would be wrong to resort to similar measures when confronted with a situation where another's life is at stake. You protect them, you don't lie, you keep yourself right before God.

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Just making a point, that's all. I wouldn't really do it, but I will tell you, if they come for me, I will seek to protect those I can, and I WILL lie to the king to do so, if necessary, that the gospel may go in in my absence. Not saying anyone else should, but I am the one who will answer to the Lord for what I choose to do, should the need arise.

 

 

Ps 109:2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
 
Ps 120:2 Deliver my soul, O LORD, from lying lips, and from a deceitful tongue.
 
Ps 120:3 What shall be given unto thee? or what shall be done unto thee, thou false tongue?
 
Pr 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
 
Pr 12:19 The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment.
 
Pr 21:6 The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death.
 
Pr 26:28 A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.
 
Pr 15:28 ¶ The heart of the righteous studieth to answer: but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things.
 
Jer 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
 
Ac 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
 
How do you explain away these verses? As a pastor do you teach your congregation that its OK to tell lies as they see fit? Wow, I surely would hate to set before a pastor that encouraged any type of lying, I just never could trust him, for I would never know when he was being honest or lying!
 
They tell me once you tell the 1st lie, all others come very easily & pretty soon you never know if your lying or not.

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This "to lie, or not to lie" gambit is a tough nut to crack. We first resort to our flesh to justify a lie that, in our minds, would never hurt anyone and would only help someone (i.e. Families harboring Jews during WWII). When that fails, or maybe just to supplement and bolster our stance, we try to pull verses from the Bible to justify lying for a good cause (i.e. The midwifes and Pharoh, Rahab and the spies, etc.)

 

I would first like to address the biblical standpoint of lying. As Jerry, John, and a few others have already pointed out, lying is a sin and an abomination before our Holy God. Period. When examining the scripture about the midwifes, we learn that they never lied. Yes, they disobeyed Pharoh's order, but never did they say, yes we carried out your command. Most likely, whenever a Hebrew woman was about to give birth, the midwifes took their sweet time getting to the house, so that when they arrived the baby was already born. Then they could tell Pharoh (truthfully) that the babies were already born when they arrived. I like how they even seemed to take a dig at the Egyptians by saying Hebrew women were more "lively" than the Egyptian women!

 

The instance with Rahab, we see an obvious lie. But look closer at it. While Rahab lied, she was not a "member" of God's chosen people. She was not a Hebrew. So in fact what we are seeing is a non-Hebrew telling a lie. God's people never told the lie, it was an outsider. So in this instance, we can't use that passage to justify telling a lie, even to save another person.

 

Now, before anyone starts jumping the gun and asking if I'm saying that I wouldn't tell a lie in order to save a life, the answer is no. I would not tell a lie, but I would most definitely not answer the question. Case in point: When the government wants to hide something from you, but at the same time cover themselves so they can't be accused of lying, they generally respond to pointed questions with "That is need to know information, and you do not need to know." Or, "I can neither confirm nor deny that..." I do not believe it would be wrong to resort to similar measures when confronted with a situation where another's life is at stake. You protect them, you don't lie, you keep yourself right before God.

 

 

We know Rahab did wrong by lying, & God did not award her for lying, but for faith, using the same grace that's used to forgive us. Now how do we know its was wrong for Rahab to lie,

 

So if God awarded Rahab for lying, them God would have been contradicting Himself, & He cannot do that, & He cannot reward sin.

 

So being as that is true, how thankful are we to God for the grace he has offered everyone who has faith in Him though Jesus. Without that grace none of us could have no hope.

Edited by Jerry80871852

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Just making a point, that's all. I wouldn't really do it, but I will tell you, if they come for me, I will seek to protect those I can, and I WILL lie to the king to do so, if necessary, that the gospel may go in in my absence. Not saying anyone else should, but I am the one who will answer to the Lord for what I choose to do, should the need arise.

Please be very careful about making bold statements reguarding premeditated sin.

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Just making a point, that's all. I wouldn't really do it, but I will tell you, if they come for me, I will seek to protect those I can, and I WILL lie to the king to do so, if necessary, that the gospel may go in in my absence. Not saying anyone else should, but I am the one who will answer to the Lord for what I choose to do, should the need arise.

 

Instead of sinning, why not just remain silent or change the subject?  

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Ps 109:2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
 
Ps 120:2 Deliver my soul, O LORD, from lying lips, and from a deceitful tongue.
 
Ps 120:3 What shall be given unto thee? or what shall be done unto thee, thou false tongue?
 
Pr 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
 
Pr 12:19 The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment.
 
Pr 21:6 The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death.
 
Pr 26:28 A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.
 
Pr 15:28 ¶ The heart of the righteous studieth to answer: but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things.
 
Jer 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
 
Ac 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
 
How do you explain away these verses? As a pastor do you teach your congregation that its OK to tell lies as they see fit? Wow, I surely would hate to set before a pastor that encouraged any type of lying, I just never could trust him, for I would never know when he was being honest or lying!
 
They tell me once you tell the 1st lie, all others come very easily & pretty soon you never know if your lying or not.

 

 

Just making a point, that's all. I wouldn't really do it, but I will tell you, if they come for me, I will seek to protect those I can, and I WILL lie to the king to do so, if necessary, that the gospel may go in in my absence. Not saying anyone else should, but I am the one who will answer to the Lord for what I choose to do, should the need arise.

Would not want to be under a pastor that believes this.

 

Mohan

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