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C. S. Lewis + Sword Of The Lord


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Great post...I quote C.S. Lewis myself to make a point in apologetics or if appropriate to make a point. I've made the same point before in other threads. But (sigh...) alas it was to no avail.

Lewis is an amazing apologist...he is LOADED with wisdom....................and yes.........his Theology is essentially worthless......He knows this.

The difference between men like Lewis and the average IFB...is that he knows his own weaknesses and WE DON'T.

We Fundamentalist Baptists make a habit of "cutting off our noses to spite our face".  Because we can't differentiate and glean wisdom from men like Lewis.  We are too often SO OBSESSESED with the fact that he doesn't necessarilly understand that women who occasionally wear pants are automatically consigned to hell on account of the fact that they do so.....that we assume that the pure genius of men like Lewis is of no value....

 

We are therefore relegated to the side-lines of irrelevancy (because we are such preposterous extremists).  Our Churches aren't failing to grow because the populace isn't dedicated enough.....Our churches don't grow because the world has often heard what we have to say....and they understand that we sound ridiculous when we say it. 

 

IF...Independent Fundamental Baptists...are the type of people who anathemetize brilliant men like C.S. Lewis...then, quite frankly....the "world" is absolutely correct in their assumption that we are merely stupid.  If we IFB's want to be taken even REMOTELY seriously....than we have to have the intelligence to glean the brilliance from men like Lewis and also be able to guide men into better and more Scriptural Theology.

 

We MUST be "Wise as serpents and harmless as doves"...I'm sure I read that somewhere...

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Oh, it just hit me, I can lock this topic, for I started it. So being as Heir of Salvation has insulted me, telling me I don't know what I know.  Has completely ruined my topic, & is posting false

The world does not accept Christians because we are followers of the One they hate - not because we accept or deny the person of any man. The world assumes our irrelevancy because we do not measure by

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Here is my prediction....and I insist on being quoted before God on this:

1.)  I personally have read essentially EVERY book and relevant  published essay that C.S. Lewis has written (minus the ones about Literary criticism since....he was a prof of literature...not a Theologian by trade) and subsequently...there are myriads of those.

 

2.)  I know for a fact (since I've read your posts)...that you have read little or nothing from the man.  You've never once read the Planetarium series...(that I know incontrevertibly).  Please let your "yea be yea" and your "nay be nay"...and claim to us before God that you have read it... You can't and you won't.  Because you have NEVER read them.

 

Tell us,all... (without "Googling" it first)...what the "Silent Planet" is.  You can't...because you don't know...

I KNOW C.S. Lewis...I know his writings...I know them so well that I can tell that you have simply no idea what you're talking about.  I would literally bet money that you have not ever personally read 2 books of his all the way through with any understanding.  And yet....you call him "trash".

 

Sir...I hate to be so direct...but you started a thread designed to accuse a man whom you simply know absolutely NOTHING about.  You have no clue what you are talking about....You DON'T know C.S. Lewis...You haven't read him.  I know this...and so do you.  If you claim that you know C.S. Lewis' writings...than you are lying. 

 

 

And of course I didn't know him, for I never met him, the year he died I was attending high school in rural Arkansas, so it would have been impossible for me to know the man. So at least you did get something right.

 

That man has mislead many about God, & not a man a good Christian that understand the Holy Bible can support nor recommend anyone to read his books.

 

And thank you for calling me a liar, that just shows your true colors by saying that & supporting such a man.

 

By the way, if you could find the issue, February 1, 2013, of the Sword of the Lord & read article about C. S. Lewis, written by Stan Camp entitled, "A Thumbnail of C. S. Lewis' Troubling Theology," you could learn the truth about Mr. C. S. Lewis, that would help you stop posting misleading information about a false teacher that has led many people though the broad wide gate.

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The world does not accept Christians because we are followers of the One they hate - not because we accept or deny the person of any man. The world assumes our irrelevancy because we do not measure by the wisdom of men, but by the wisdom of God. The world should never accept us - were they to do so, it would be clear evidence something is wrong with the Church. If our churches are failing to grow, it is not because the world laughs at our lack of so-called scholarship, but because they see nothing different in us. It is because the Church is failing to live holy, separated lives, failing to obey the Lord in spreading the Gospel, and failing to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. True Scriptural theology depends on no man, but is revealed by the Holy Spirit through Scripture.

I started this response intending to state no opinion on Lewis himself. However, I find that a question has arisen. A theologian is one that knows doctrine. An apologist is one that defends a faith (which is defined by doctrine). You say that Lewis is an apologist whose theology is worthless. Yet how can one adequately defend a faith one does not understand? Without doctrine, there is nothing to defend.

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Interesting.....
" Lewis is an amazing apologist...he is LOADED with wisdom....................and yes.........his Theology is essentially worthless.."

Now, setting aside entirely your aggressive manner, I had thought that the point was using the man in relation to Bible teaching.

Now, if his "theology is essentially useless.." Then why would anyone use his words in relation to Biblical truth?

I am impressed by your knowledge of the man.
You seem like exactly the kind of person who can answer my request from earlier in this thread.

Please direct me to that writing, preferably from his own pen that, gives a good understanding of salvation.
I have read some of his writing, and read a certain amount about him, but when looking for a clear salvation testimony, I could find nothing that gave me indications of such.
I would be most grateful to you if you could post up an excerpt that contains such.

And I do not mean that he has to write "I was gloriously saved from my sin by trusting in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ alone, not putting any store in baptism or any other work".

I understand that often times historical record can be tainted by those with agendas, so when I research a man, I look for indicators when no clear statement is found.
When I taught through "church history" and came upon a situation such as I found with this man, I was cautious with my words. "I found no clear salvation testimony, nor strong indicators in that direction, but that alone does not mean he was not saved. However, or is my opinion that it was not likely"

If you have a "smoking gun" for me, I will rework that lesson happily.

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WOW!!!!  I can't fathom how you thought that I was speaking of knowing him personally.....I don't either. Never met him. I think he died in 1963 (I was BORN in 1978).   No one was speaking about knowing him "personally".  I fail to see how my statements inferred that that was my recommendation.  So....Yeah....I did "get that right"......except.....I was NEVER talking about that to begin with.  I don't care about knowing him personally.  I was talking about being informed about his writings.....AND.........You obviously aren't.
 

NO........You simply DON'T know that..........That's my point.  You don't know anything about C.S.Lewis sir...You haven't read his works.  You simply DO NOT KNOW what he has or has not said.  You cannot reasonably assert that he either Has or Has NOT led anyone astray or not....I know Lewis' works....and I know them so well that I can confidently say that you don't know a fig about what he has or has not ever said or written....you haven't even denied that so far. 

I Never called you a liar....you aren't paying attention.  You aren't reading my posts....the ONLY time I used a conjugable form of the verb "to lie" was in this specific statement (I quote myself):

 

DO YOU officially CLAIM THAT????

You haven't so far.  You have not claimed to be truly informed of his writings.....therefore, I have absolutely not called you a liar.  I know you haven't claimed that.  I choose my words quite carefully, sir.  I meant what I said.  You haven't claimed to be personally knowledgeable of his works.....Therefore, I have NOT called you a "liar"...you are now officially acting as an accuser of the brethren towards both myself and Lewis. 

You sir......have no knowledge of the man or his writings...I'm asserting that, and you know it to be true.  You cannot, and will not pretend to be knowledgeable of C.S. Lewis' writings...You simply know absolutely nothing about him.  This says nothing about "true-colors".  This is disingenuous speech on your part.  I know where I stand....and I happen to be informed about the man C.S. Lewis and his life and works...You simply know absolutely nothing about him.  Therefore you cannot reasonably say anything about "my true colors"  (whatever that means)...or "such a man" (since you obviously know nothing about him).

I have the issue on my shelf right now....I get the publication free from my Church EVERY time it comes out....

 

Lemme try this again:

I HAVE READ OSTENSIBLY EVERY PUBLISHED WORK THE MAN HAS WRITTEN !!!!!!  (minus the ones of literary criticism which I have already mentioned).

Several of his Major works...I've read SEVERAL times....

Wamme to double down?????

I did my Bachelor's thesis on him sir...

I did a comparison/contrast between his "Surprised by Joy" and James Joyce's "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" (another book you've never read, and likely haven't even heard of).

I recieved an "A" on my Thesis...

I happen to know something about what C.S. Lewis has or has not written....I also happen to know that you absolutely DO NOT.  Don't let your pride cause a fall here.  There are things I don't know, there are things you don't know.....C.S. Lewis's writings happen to simply be something I know about that you obviously don't.

It amazes me how quickly (in obvious ignorance) you would be a false accuser of the brethren.  I am cautious, at minimum, about consigning someone to hell as you have done here.  I defy you to post ONE THING that I have said about Lewis which was "misleading information".....I've said quite little about Lewis himself, actually................................I do that on purpose. :godisgood:   I don't claim as fact things that I don't know of surety.  I WILL quotably say four things:

 

1.) I know a LOT about C.S. Lewis' works and writings

2.) You know little or nothing about them

3.) You presume to accuse the man (who is your brother in Christ) falsely.

4.) Except you repent....You will be judged for how you have slandered one of God's redeemed.

 

 A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.
C. S. Lewis

 

 

 

Edited by Heir of Salvation
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The world does not accept Christians because we are followers of the One they hate - not because we accept or deny the person of any man. The world assumes our irrelevancy because we do not measure by the wisdom of men, but by the wisdom of God. The world should never accept us - were they to do so, it would be clear evidence something is wrong with the Church. If our churches are failing to grow, it is not because the world laughs at our lack of so-called scholarship, but because they see nothing different in us. It is because the Church is failing to live holy, separated lives, failing to obey the Lord in spreading the Gospel, and failing to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. True Scriptural theology depends on no man, but is revealed by the Holy Spirit through Scripture.

I started this response intending to state no opinion on Lewis himself. However, I find that a question has arisen. A theologian is one that knows doctrine. An apologist is one that defends a faith (which is defined by doctrine). You say that Lewis is an apologist whose theology is worthless. Yet how can one adequately defend a faith one does not understand? Without doctrine, there is nothing to defend.

:clapping:  :goodpost:  :amen:

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WOW!!!!  I can't fathom how you thought that I was speaking of knowing him personally.....I don't either. Never met him. I think he died in 1963 (I was BORN in 1978).   No one was speaking about knowing him "personally".  I fail to see how my statements inferred that that was my recommendation.  So....Yeah....I did "get that right"......except.....I was NEVER talking about that to begin with.  I don't care about knowing him personally.  I was talking about being informed about his writings.....AND.........You obviously aren't.
 

NO........You simply DON'T know that..........That's my point.  You don't know anything about C.S.Lewis sir...You haven't read his works.  You simply DO NOT KNOW what he has or has not said.  You cannot reasonably assert that he either Has or Has NOT led anyone astray or not....I know Lewis' works....and I know them so well that I can confidently say that you don't know a fig about what he has or has not ever said or written....you haven't even denied that so far. 

I Never called you a liar....you aren't paying attention.  You aren't reading my posts....the ONLY time I used a conjugable form of the verb "to lie" was in this specific statement (I quote myself):

 

DO YOU officially CLAIM THAT????

You haven't so far.  You have not claimed to be truly informed of his writings.....therefore, I have absolutely not called you a liar.  I know you haven't claimed that.  I choose my words quite carefully, sir.  I meant what I said.  You haven't claimed to be personally knowledgeable of his works.....Therefore, I have NOT called you a "liar"...you are now officially acting as an accuser of the brethren towards both myself and Lewis. 

You sir......have no knowledge of the man or his writings...I'm asserting that, and you know it to be true.  You cannot, and will not pretend to be knowledgeable of C.S. Lewis' writings...You simply know absolutely nothing about him.  This says nothing about "true-colors".  This is disingenuous speech on your part.  I know where I stand....and I happen to be informed about the man C.S. Lewis and his life and works...You simply know absolutely nothing about him.  Therefore you cannot reasonably say anything about "my true colors"  (whatever that means)...or "such a man" (since you obviously know nothing about him).

I have the issue on my shelf right now....I get the publication free from my Church EVERY time it comes out....

 

Lemme try this again:

I HAVE READ OSTENSIBLY EVERY PUBLISHED WORK THE MAN HAS WRITTEN !!!!!!  (minus the ones of literary criticism which I have already mentioned).

Several of his Major works...I've read SEVERAL times....

Wamme to double down?????

I did my Bachelor's thesis on him sir...

I did a comparison/contrast between his "Surprised by Joy" and James Joyce's "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" (another book you've never read, and likely haven't even heard of).

I recieved an "A" on my Thesis...

I happen to know something about what C.S. Lewis has or has not written....I also happen to know that you absolutely DO NOT.  Don't let your pride cause a fall here.  There are things I don't know, there are things you don't know.....C.S. Lewis's writings happen to simply be something I know about that you obviously don't.

It amazes me how quickly (in obvious ignorance) you would be a false accuser of the brethren.  I am cautious, at minimum, about consigning someone to hell as you have done here.  I defy you to post ONE THING that I have said about Lewis which was "misleading information".....I've said quite little about Lewis himself, actually................................I do that on purpose. :godisgood:   I don't claim as fact things that I don't know of surety.  I WILL quotably say four things:

 

1.) I know a LOT about C.S. Lewis' works and writings

2.) You know little or nothing about them

3.) You presume to accuse the man (who is your brother in Christ) falsely.

4.) Except you repent....You will be judged for how you have slandered one of God's redeemed.

 

 A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.
C. S. Lewis

 

 

 

 

 

Again, you know nothing about what I know or do not know. Yet I do know that you do not understand the Bible, & that you love to call people liars & lunatics that you know not.

 

So keep on showing everyone your true colors. I will not waste my time replying to you, & I refuse to sink to the same level as you have.

 

 

 

 

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The world does not accept Christians because we are followers of the One they hate - not because we accept or deny the person of any man. The world assumes our irrelevancy because we do not measure by the wisdom of men, but by the wisdom of God. The world should never accept us - were they to do so, it would be clear evidence something is wrong with the Church. If our churches are failing to grow, it is not because the world laughs at our lack of so-called scholarship, but because they see nothing different in us. It is because the Church is failing to live holy, separated lives, failing to obey the Lord in spreading the Gospel, and failing to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. True Scriptural theology depends on no man, but is revealed by the Holy Spirit through Scripture.

I started this response intending to state no opinion on Lewis himself. However, I find that a question has arisen. A theologian is one that knows doctrine. An apologist is one that defends a faith (which is defined by doctrine). You say that Lewis is an apologist whose theology is worthless. Yet how can one adequately defend a faith one does not understand? Without doctrine, there is nothing to defend.

I would almost like this except for a few things. We are talking about defaming a man. I don't believe that defaming can be supported by scripture. Also, faith isn't defined by doctrine...it is defined by God. The only clear definition of faith I can find in God's word is...

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

 

According to definitions, C.S. Lewis was very much an apologist.

Webster's 1828 apologist is defined...

One who makes an apology; one who speaks or writes in defense of another.

 

Dictionary.com...

 

a·pol·o·gist  [uh-pol-uh-jist]  Show IPA
noun
1.
a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.
2.
Ecclesiastical .
a.
Also, a·pol·o·gete  [uh-pol-uh-jeet]  Show IPA . a person skilled in apologetics.
b.
one of the authors of the early Christian apologies in defense of the faith.

 

Before you judge Lewis, put his writings and speech to the test against these terms. Lewis fulfilled every one of these definitions with the exception of Dictionary.com 2.b. "early Christian apologist." Many may not like the way he phrased every sentence spoken or written when compared to the pure word of God; of course our own sentences are perfect. Then some of us may not like his profession when compared to our own perfected testimony. I don't think the condemnation would bother Lewis if he were alive to defend or clarify himself. I don't believe he would feel a need to clarify himself to the affront on his character herein posed. I think he would just continue defending Christianity to those he felt best suited to approach by the small amount of grace given to him by God. Just my 2¢.

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I would almost like this except for a few things. We are talking about defaming a man. I don't believe that defaming can be supported by scripture.

Scripture says that we are to mark those who are 'contrary to the faith' and avoid them. The OP is discussing whether or not Lewis has done so. If this is defamation, how are we ever to mark anyone?
 

 

Also, faith isn't defined by doctrine...it is defined by God. The only clear definition of faith I can find in God's word is...

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

Correct. But what are the things hoped for - the things not seen? Are they the hope of the resurrection of the dead through the forgiveness of sin by grace through the faith of Jesus Christ? Are they a future reincarnation in a (hopefully) better state? Are they the future inheritance of one's own planet to rule as god? Faith cannot exist without a focus, and the definition of what exactly that focus is doctrine. 

 

Perhaps there's a better word I could use, but I think it works. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." One of the definitions of doctrine in Webster's is "the truth of the gospel in general".  The Word of God contains the truth of the gospel (the gospel doctrine, if you will), and by the hearing of that people come to faith - faith in the Biblical gospel, and not a false gospel.

 

 

According to definitions, C.S. Lewis was very much an apologist.

Webster's 1828 apologist is defined...

One who makes an apology; one who speaks or writes in defense of another.

 

Dictionary.com...

 

a·pol·o·gist  [uh-pol-uh-jist]  Show IPA
noun
1.
a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.
2.
Ecclesiastical .
a.
Also, a·pol·o·gete  [uh-pol-uh-jeet]  Show IPA . a person skilled in apologetics.
b.
one of the authors of the early Christian apologies in defense of the faith.

 

Before you judge Lewis, put his writings and speech to the test against these terms. Lewis fulfilled every one of these definitions with the exception of Dictionary.com 2.b. "early Christian apologist." Many may not like the way he phrased every sentence spoken or written when compared to the pure word of God; of course our own sentences are perfect. Then some of us may not like his profession when compared to our own perfected testimony. I don't think the condemnation would bother Lewis if he were alive to defend or clarify himself. I don't believe he would feel a need to clarify himself to the affront on his character herein posed. I think he would just continue defending Christianity to those he felt best suited to approach by the small amount of grace given to him by God. Just my 2¢.

 

Fair enough. I wasn't really trying to prove Lewis was or wasn't; just questioning Heir of Salvation's contradictions. I'd still like to know how some one can defend a faith they don't understand (according to Heir's statements).   :wink

 

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.I would encourage that person to read some of the testimonies of earlier Christians like John Bunyan, John Newton, etc.... RARELY will they articulate their "salvation experiences" in the same way, and with the same phraseology that we might. 

  In vain will you search for John Newton to speak of the day he was "born-again" and "got saved" and all that stuff.  They simply didn't talk like that.

 

 

I read Pilgrims Progress and many of the brethren in IFB circles would probably consider Bunyan as heretic. For a Calvinist he almost borders on a works based salvation in that book. He also believed in infant baptism.

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Lewis is an amazing apologist...he is LOADED with wisdom....................and yes.........his Theology is essentially worthless......He knows this.

The difference between men like Lewis and the average IFB...is that he knows his own weaknesses and WE DON'T.

We Fundamentalist Baptists make a habit of "cutting off our noses to spite our face".  Because we can't differentiate and glean wisdom from men like Lewis.  We are too often SO OBSESSESED with the fact that he doesn't necessarilly understand that women who occasionally wear pants are automatically consigned to hell on account of the fact that they do so.....that we assume that the pure genius of men like Lewis is of no value....

 

We are therefore relegated to the side-lines of irrelevancy (because we are such preposterous extremists).  Our Churches aren't failing to grow because the populace isn't dedicated enough.....Our churches don't grow because the world has often heard what we have to say....and they understand that we sound ridiculous when we say it. 

 

IF...Independent Fundamental Baptists...are the type of people who anathemetize brilliant men like C.S. Lewis...then, quite frankly....the "world" is absolutely correct in their assumption that we are merely stupid.  If we IFB's want to be taken even REMOTELY seriously....than we have to have the intelligence to glean the brilliance from men like Lewis and also be able to guide men into better and more Scriptural Theology.

 

We MUST be "Wise as serpents and harmless as doves"...I'm sure I read that somewhere...

I agree with some of what you say but really, believers are not to worry what the world thinks or how relevant we are in the world. That's really not what we are to be concerned with. 

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I found it rather interesting that in the same Sword of the Lord which denounces Lewis and admonishes separation from him, they quoted the unsaved Lincoln several times, and not only was he a lost sinner, he held some anti-Christian views and his disregard for the Constitution set the stage for abuse of power and growth of the federal government which is clearly the enemy of Christ.

Charles Chiniquy said Lincoln was a saved man. I'm not sure why you would think he wasn't? Lots of Christians hold "anti-Christian views".

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Charles Chiniquy said Lincoln was a saved man. I'm not sure why you would think he wasn't? Lots of Christians hold "anti-Christian views".

Lincoln's wife, his best friend and his closest associates all said Lincoln was not a Christian. Prior to running for national office Lincoln was known for his anti-christian beliefs which he often shared with others.

 

It wasn't until after Lincoln was assassinated and the cult of Lincoln began to form that Christians began working to claim him as one of his own. Several Christian preachers came forth at various times claiming to have led Lincoln to Christ. Investigation into their claims proved them to be false. Some tried to site Lincoln's Christian comments in his speeches as "proof" he was a Christian yet Lincoln specifically had a Christian write speeches for him so he could appeal to the masses which he knew called themselves Christians. 

 

President Clinton has more of a claim to being a Christian than President Lincoln ever did.

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Lincoln's wife, his best friend and his closest associates all said Lincoln was not a Christian. Prior to running for national office Lincoln was known for his anti-christian beliefs which he often shared with others.

 

 

Where did you get this from? I would like to read this because from all I heard Lincoln was a bible reader most of his life. 

 

I'm not sure why you would doubt what Charles Chiniquy claimed unless you are just bound and determined to believe Lincoln was unsaved because of the Civil War. Chiniquy was a personal friend of Lincoln. This was his claim about Lincoln as a man who new him personally not some preacher who came along afterwards.

 

Don't forget, a lot of these "anti-Christian" comments out of of men like Jefferson and Lincoln were aimed at the Papacy. Whenever Jefferson spoke of Christianity in a negative light if you read his comments in context he was referring to the Christianity of Europe which was primarily state run religions built on paganism.

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Where did you get this from? I would like to read this because from all I heard Lincoln was a bible reader most of his life. 

 

I'm not sure why you would doubt what Charles Chiniquy claimed unless you just are bound and determined to believe Lincoln was unsaved because of the Civil War

 

Don't forget, a lot of these "anti-Christian" comments out of of men like Jefferson and Lincoln were aimed at the Papacy. Whenever Jefferson spoke of Christianity in a negative light if you read his comments in context he was referring to the Christianity of Europe which was primarily state run religions built on paganism.

I don't know what the civil war has to do with whether one is saved or not. Chiniquy isn't a reliable source. Lincoln's wife was directly asked if her husband was a Christian or not and she was clear that he wasn't. His best friend and closest associates were all asked about this and they all confirmed he was an unbeliever. This information is to be found from several sources but I don't have the exact names at hand.

 

Unfortunately there have been exceedingly few born again presidents.

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I don't know what the civil war has to do with whether one is saved or not. Chiniquy isn't a reliable source. Lincoln's wife was directly asked if her husband was a Christian or not and she was clear that he wasn't. His best friend and closest associates were all asked about this and they all confirmed he was an unbeliever. This information is to be found from several sources but I don't have the exact names at hand.

 

Unfortunately there have been exceedingly few born again presidents.

Why isn't Chiniquy a reliable source? You just says these things off the cuff without any backing. From what I've read he's reliable.

 

I mentioned the Civil War because I know your position concerning it that it was unjust and unconstitutional war therefore the Commander in Chief heading the war must have been unsaved for surely a saved man would have never forced the South's hand.

 

I would appreciate you finding me those quotes from Mary Todd.

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Before I leave this reply I need to say, I am not a "Lewis-ite" I'm a Christian and rely solely on the Bible for faith and practice. I only quote Lewis when appropriate to the conversation in stressing a point. 

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Why isn't Chiniquy a reliable source? You just says these things off the cuff without any backing. From what I've read he's reliable.

 

I mentioned the Civil War because I know your position concerning it that it was unjust and unconstitutional war therefore the Commander in Chief heading the war must have been unsaved for surely a saved man would have never forced the South's hand.

 

I would appreciate you finding me those quotes from Mary Todd.

You are probably better at searching the internet for this information than I am. I don't still have all the books I once did and many I do have are not accessable at this time.

 

I know at one time all the information I've mentioned was also available online.

 

Even a saved person can do wrong, include disobeying the Constitution and waging war, so that has nothing to do with anything and I don't base one salvation upon such matters, only upon whether or not they are born again in Christ according to Scripture.

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There has been many brilliant men in the past, & probably will be in the future  yet, we do not answer to brilliant me, we will answer to Jesus. And it all about the wisdom from above of which wisdom of men do not understand, they think its foolishness.

 

 

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
 
And somme one said, we are not to say anything bad about others, espeically those who have died. That is not true, we are to point out those who do not obey the Word of God, false teachers, & such, & not keep company with them.
 
2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

 

 

Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

 

 

Ro 16:17 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Ro 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
 
And we know in the latter days there shall come false teachers, that is people who teach a false doctriene, that teach one is saved different than what the Bible teaches.
 
2Ti 3:1 ¶ This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

 

 

2Pe 3:1 ¶ This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pe 3:3 ¶ Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
 
And remember, there is only one way a person can be saved, & the majority of those that claims to be Christian depends on being saved by works & or baptizing, not by grace though faith.

 

Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

 

Sadly among us there be those who hold up men who teach works based salvation as great Bible teachers, great Christians & by doing this they will lead some people down the road to gaining a false hope of Heaven yet will be doomed to hell forever for no one can be saved by works.

 

And there will be those that will treat us like Jesus was treated, that is if we hold to His truths.

 

 

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

And thank you God for your mercy & grace you have shown us though your only begotten Son who gave His life that we might have life.

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You are probably better at searching the internet for this information than I am. I don't still have all the books I once did and many I do have are not accessable at this time.

 

I know at one time all the information I've mentioned was also available online.

 

Even a saved person can do wrong, include disobeying the Constitution and waging war, so that has nothing to do with anything and I don't base one salvation upon such matters, only upon whether or not they are born again in Christ according to Scripture.

 

One thing for sure John, some who lived in the past & are now dead we cannot know if they were saved or not for they did not do any writing about the subject. So with those we must be very careful when reading what others may have said about them & or not say. Plus when finding something online one must be very careful, for much of it is pure trash.

 

Yet there's some that have done much writing & even writing books on this subject, & if they write or teach one is saved by works, them we know that they were not saved, that is unless they repent later on changing their mind before they died.

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Where did you get this from? I would like to read this because from all I heard Lincoln was a bible reader most of his life. 

 

I'm not sure why you would doubt what Charles Chiniquy claimed unless you are just bound and determined to believe Lincoln was unsaved because of the Civil War. Chiniquy was a personal friend of Lincoln. This was his claim about Lincoln as a man who new him personally not some preacher who came along afterwards.

 

Don't forget, a lot of these "anti-Christian" comments out of of men like Jefferson and Lincoln were aimed at the Papacy. Whenever Jefferson spoke of Christianity in a negative light if you read his comments in context he was referring to the Christianity of Europe which was primarily state run religions built on paganism.

 

Some years back I remember we had a topic were we talked about Abraham Lincoln & I remember reading some info online about his salvation. But all it did was make me wonder if he was saved or not. For it was not direct information from him, it was said to be said by someone who knew him. And with information such as that you cannot know if he was saved or not. Info like that is only hearsay, much the same as gossip, & cannot be trusted.

 

And I say that not being a big fan of his. I just do not believe he was a great president, I believe a great president could have handle things different & saved many lives both in the north & in the south. That war caused many deaths, & I feel it could have been avoided if we truly had a great president in office at that time.

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Again, you know nothing about what I know or do not know.

Yes I do.  I know that you have little or no personal knowledge of C.S. Lewis' writings.  That's a fact, and I know it incontrevertibly.  You won't even deny it, because your honesty prevents you.  You won't say "Yes I am familiar with Lewis' writings" (you would if you could).  But your honesty (which I commend) means you will instead simply divert the point. You will say "You know nothing about what I know or do not know".....that's designed to divert our attention and make us possibly assume that you might.  But you won't lie about it and claim you DO KNOW....you will merely say.."You know nothing about what I know or do not know"....That tells me everything I need to know.

  

Yet I do know that you do not understand the Bible

That...you do not know.  This is simply mean-spirited and unfruitful.  Look, I can understand how your pride is wounded by someone calling you out on having disparraged (and in ignorance) accussed your brethren and publically so.  I can only imagine how hard it is to accept that I am calling you out publically.  You have accused a Universally admired brother in Christ and possibly the most effective apologist of the twentieth century, and you have done so without having anything CLOSE to a passing familiarity with his work and writings.  It isn't easy to hear, sir, but you have wronged Lewis, and you are not helping the cause of Christ by standing as his accuser.  Just be warned how serious it really is to accuse one of God's elect.  I am warning you not to do so when you do not have sufficient witness to testify. 

 

& that you love to call people liars & lunatics that you know not.

 

I have NEVER called anyone here either a "liar" nor a "lunatic".....you cannot quote me.  This is more false accusation of the brethren.  You stood as C.S. Lewis' accuser, and now you falsely accuse me. 

So keep on showing everyone your true colors.

Thank you...I will.

I will not waste my time replying to you

What then...is this?

I refuse to sink to the same level as you have

Brother....I think you actually mean well with this thread.  I think you honestly care very much about sound Theology and being a defender of the faith.  I admire these things.  I think you posed this thread with the noblest of intentions.  I do not blame you for your intention to "earnestly contend" for the faith.  That is...what you were intending to do.  I do not question your intent.  I thank you for your passion in so doing.  I only mean to say that you are inadvertently doing more harm than good here by attacking C.S. Lewis. 

While you have meant well (I truly believe that) your attacks on Lewis were misguided and need correction.  I have two choices...ingratiate myself to you by pretending you are in the right, or offering correction when it is called for.  I wish I could have done the former.  But that is not what is needed just now.  I have no doubt that we may enjoy many conversations in the future wherein we agree and might admonish one another.  I look forward to that. 

Edited by Heir of Salvation
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I don't know if you are so taken with attacking Jerry that you see nothing else, or if you are deliberately ignoring my question, but I for one would appreciate you posting an excerpt that would prove, or at least heavily suggest that Lewis was saved.

Thanks.

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I don't know if you are so taken with attacking Jerry that you see nothing else, or if you are deliberately ignoring my question, but I for one would appreciate you posting an excerpt that would prove, or at least heavily suggest that Lewis was saved.

Thanks.

Dave, I don't know if I can consider honest discussion with humility on Heir of Salvation's part as an attack. I'm wondering what evidence would be required of Lewis as proof he was saved? What are you looking for?

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Well, we read it differently.
I find his manner lacks humility.

However, that as an aside, a page or two ago I asked for exactly what I wanted, and have not had even an acknowledgment of the question.

It certainly appears to me that his attention is so focussed upon Jerry (whom I am not suggesting is an angel in this matter either) that he has missed my question.

If you look back, I hope you will see that my question is respectful and genuine.

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Yes I do.  I know that you have little or no personal knowledge of C.S. Lewis' writings.  That's a fact, and I know it incontrevertibly.  You won't even deny it, because your honesty prevents you.  You won't say "Yes I am familiar with Lewis' writings" (you would if you could).  But your honesty (which I commend) means you will instead simply divert the point. You will say "You know nothing about what I know or do not know".....that's designed to divert our attention and make us possibly assume that you might.  But you won't lie about it and claim you DO KNOW....you will merely say.."You know nothing about what I know or do not know"....That tells me everything I need to know.

  

That...you do not know.  This is simply mean-spirited and unfruitful.  Look, I can understand how your pride is wounded by someone calling you out on having disparraged (and in ignorance) accussed your brethren and publically so.  I can only imagine how hard it is to accept that I am calling you out publically.  You have accused a Universally admired brother in Christ and possibly the most effective apologist of the twentieth century, and you have done so without having anything CLOSE to a passing familiarity with his work and writings.  It isn't easy to hear, sir, but you have wronged Lewis, and you are not helping the cause of Christ by standing as his accuser.  Just be warned how serious it really is to accuse one of God's elect.  I am warning you not to do so when you do not have sufficient witness to testify. 

I have NEVER called anyone here either a "liar" nor a "lunatic".....you cannot quote me.  This is more false accusation of the brethren.  You stood as C.S. Lewis' accuser, and now you falsely accuse me. 

Thank you...I will.

What then...is this?

Brother....I think you actually mean well with this thread.  I think you honestly care very much about sound Theology and being a defender of the faith.  I admire these things.  I think you posed this thread with the noblest of intentions.  I do not blame you for your intention to "earnestly contend" for the faith.  That is...what you were intending to do.  I do not question your intent.  I thank you for your passion in so doing.  I only mean to say that you are inadvertently doing more harm than good here by attacking C.S. Lewis. 

While you have meant well (I truly believe that) your attacks on Lewis were misguided and need correction.  I have two choices...ingratiate myself to you by pretending you are in the right, or offering correction when it is called for.  I wish I could have done the former.  But that is not what is needed just now.  I have no doubt that we may enjoy many conversations in the future wherein we agree and might admonish one another.  I look forward to that. 

 

OK, I apologize, I forgot, your like God & know everything about everything.  :smug:

 

And yes, I know you mean well, yet you just don't know any better.

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Well, we read it differently.
I find his manner lacks humility.

However, that as an aside, a page or two ago I asked for exactly what I wanted, and have not had even an acknowledgment of the question.

It certainly appears to me that his attention is so focussed upon Jerry (whom I am not suggesting is an angel in this matter either) that he has missed my question.

If you look back, I hope you will see that my question is respectful and genuine.

Fair enough we are allowed to see things differently. I agree with much of your observation too.

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I don't know if you are so taken with attacking Jerry that you see nothing else, or if you are deliberately ignoring my question, but I for one would appreciate you posting an excerpt that would prove, or at least heavily suggest that Lewis was saved.

Thanks.

I was essentially ignoring your request Dave because I found it rather odd considering the man has written a Spiritual autobiography about his own conversion to Christianity.  He can speak for himself.  Furthermore....I have already stated in a previous post that you won't exactly find a set of buzz-words or an account of having walked the aisle at a revival during the 4th stanza of "Just as I am" if that is what you are looking for.  Also, to attempt to comply with that request would be to accept a "burden of proof" which I decidedly do not have to accept.  I would argue that the "burden of proof" is on those who would doubt the salvation of someone that almost every Christian Universally takes for granted is in fact saved.

Also...considering your request was immediately proceeded by the statement "aggressive manner aside..."  I did not know whether it was a genuine request or whether it was merely rhetorical.  I suppose I would have responded to that request by quoting your signature back to you:

Don't be lazy - go and look it up! :coolsmiley: 

 

Edited by Heir of Salvation
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And yes, I know you mean well, yet you just don't know any better.

 

Jerry...i was trying to iterrate that I believe that YOU mean well.  I could have been more gracious with my posts to you, and for my manner I apologize. 

I wanted you to know that I respect your intentions with this thread....I just also consider it a dangerous thing to publically cast doubt upon the salvation of one of God's children.

I hope you can forgive my manner, and know that I appreciate your intentions.  I just find them ill-advised.

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So, do you agree with his theology, his concept of salvation?

This is an incredibly open-ended question....I would have no idea how to respond to it.  I don't know what you assume to BE his concept of salvation....nor precisely what you mean by "concept of salvation".  Considering Lewis is not known for his Theology and repeatedly says so himself, to then say either "yes" or "no" regarding whether I agree with his "Theology" or not seems like a question one needn't bother to ask, unless they had an agenda.  Frankly, the question sounds more like a baited trap than anything.  I'm not assumming it is, but it's extremely open-ended.  Perhaps you could be more specific? 

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Jerry...i was trying to iterrate that I believe that YOU mean well.  I could have been more gracious with my posts to you, and for my manner I apologize. 

I wanted you to know that I respect your intentions with this thread....I just also consider it a dangerous thing to publically cast doubt upon the salvation of one of God's children.

I hope you can forgive my manner, and know that I appreciate your intentions.  I just find them ill-advised.

 

I never appreciated anyone who holds up false teachings nor anyone who calls me a liar. And you have done exactly that by saying I know nothing about Mr. C. S. Lewis.

 

Good night.

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