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Miss Daisy

Acoustic Guitars Ok?

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So, back to the OP...Acoustic Guitar? I say, no probem. At least in my church. As far as instruments go, since the Bible, particularly the NT, is pretty much silent on the subject of okay, not okay. The bottom line must again come down to HOW it is employed, and, CAN it be employed in a manner which we can reasonably believe, according to examples from God's word, is honoring to God?  Instrument-wise, I beieve there is a great amount of liberty, since we see again, no specifics in their use or non-use in the NT, and only direct accounts of what were used in nthe OT. In fact, in the NT, all we see is the descriptions of psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Nothing of how, or IF, they are used in the assembly-we speak to ourselve, to one another, and to God with hymns, psalms and spiritual songs, but nothing on WHEN or in what manner.  

 

Personally, just me, I believe music plays way too big of a role in modern churches, when we consider the silence of scripture on the same.

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Those books don't provide a set standard, only the authors idea of what they believe the standards should be. This is why you can get a couple hundred IFB pastors in a room and they won't all agree on all matters of music.

 

That's not true at all.  Seems to me that you don't want to see it.  We keep rehashing the same line you and me every couple of days, weeks and months. Have you read those books again?  Did you buy any of the others you were missing from the list?

 

CCM is a real problem in my life, that's why I stay constantly vigilant and my big mouth has cost me friends and family.  So be it.  My job is protect my family and carry out the Lord's commandments.

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Of course its a bit different in each local church, why even go there? Each local church makes up their mind about such things & that is the correct way for a New Testament church. We are nothing like those man made churches that teaches commandments of men instead of commandments of God. We have no hierarchy,  headquarters, pope, dictator, or such that dictates what's done in the local church each service & what order should be followed. 

 

And if you are visiting a local church you're not a member of you should totally respect that church & its members & act appropriately & not make a spectacle of yourself. 

 

For instants, if when someone sings a special & members only say amen, if you do anything, it should be saying amen as they do, & not clapping your hands.

 

If someone sings a special & they clap their hands, them if you wish to clap your hands you may do freely.

 

If your visiting a church & unlike your home church, they don't roll up & down the aisles of the church, them you should not either even if you do so at every service in your home church.

 

 

If visiting a church & no one holds their hands stretched up in the air, them you should not either even if you do so at every service in your home church.
 

Yes, if we are visiting a church we should watch how the members of that church do things, behaves their self, & totally respect it, & behave in a like manner not bring no special attention upon our self. That is called being respectful.

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Of course its a bit different in each local church, why even go there? Each local church makes up their mind about such things & that is the correct way for a New Testament church. We are nothing like those man made churches that teaches commandments of men instead of commandments of God. We have no hierarchy,  headquarters, pope, dictator, or such that dictates what's done in the local church each service & what order should be followed. 

 

And if you are visiting a local church you're not a member of you should totally respect that church & its members & act appropriately & not make a spectacle of yourself. 

 

For instants, if when someone sings a special & members only say amen, if you do anything, it should be saying amen as they do, & not clapping your hands.

 

If someone sings a special & they clap their hands, them if you wish to clap your hands you may do freely.

 

If your visiting a church & unlike your home church, they don't roll up & down the aisles of the church, them you should not either even if you do so at every service in your home church.

 

 

If visiting a church & no one holds their hands stretched up in the air, them you should not either even if you do so at every service in your home church.
 

Yes, if we are visiting a church we should watch how the members of that church do things, behaves their self, & totally respect it, & behave in a like manner not bring no special attention upon our self. That is called being respectful.

Amen! Which highlights the point that none of us are in a position to say "this, and only this music is acceptable". There will be differences between the churches. Some churches will have similar music as ours, some will have music that may be clearly wrong, and others will have music that falls into that area of preference or taste. It's not our calling to go about telling every church what we think of their music.

 

We certainly should be vigilant in our own churches, families and personal lives with regards to music (and all other things), and if we are doing that, we will be plenty busy and not have so much time to be policing other churches.

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That's not true at all.  Seems to me that you don't want to see it.  We keep rehashing the same line you and me every couple of days, weeks and months. Have you read those books again?  Did you buy any of the others you were missing from the list?

 

CCM is a real problem in my life, that's why I stay constantly vigilant and my big mouth has cost me friends and family.  So be it.  My job is protect my family and carry out the Lord's commandments.

 

CCM does not seem too be an issue here. I believe that almost every pastor and preacher here will agree that CCM is wicked, ungodly, and has no place in any Christian's life. If it comes to a matter of whether or not CCM is wrong you will find me on the side against it every time. However, there are many componants of music that are not accepted by the majority of IFB that fall into that gray area.

 

 

I can give you a clear verse that indicates a.style of music that is not honouring to the Lord.

Ex 32
17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.

18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.

Joshua said "It sound like a war going on in the camp", and Moses said "no, it is the people singing".
Sounds like an unlikely mistake doesn't it? That someone could mistake a song for a battle?

So what was the "noise of war in those days"?

The clashing and clanging of metal upon metal, the thud of club upon shield, and the shrieking of those run through by spears.

Sounds to me like a pretty serious rock concert in fact.
In fact if you want to.get technical about it, the closest thing we have today that fits that description is metal music.

And remember that they couldn't hear the words that were being spoken - the issue was the style.

The one passage that I know of (not.saying it is the only passage in the Bible) speaks plainly against a style of music that sounds like war.

 

I want to be careful how I put this and to make sure that I keep a respectful tone. I also don't want to seem like I am just ignoring your comment. The truth is I have heard this verse many times and have even used it myself, but we have to keep in mind that there were millions of Jews down there having a huge ungodly party. There is no way with that many parting backslidden people that you are going to get them to all play and sing the same song. That is why it was as the noise of war. Also, comparatively speaking, there are very few styles that actually sound like war. They tend to be more in the rock and roll genre. This still leave discussion in other genres that use the electric guitar such as some country, newer folk music, jazz, blues, as well as others. In fact the man who was said to pioneer the seven string electric guitar was a jazzist. Now I am not condoning these style but rather saying that your verse does not apply.

 

And I will agree that taste, preference, nationality, and local/regional culture will be a determining factor in what each individual church will deem acceptable. 

 

My only point here is that the Biblical guidelines are not nearly as vague as most people make them out to be.

 

To answer your question as to why God would make it so hard???

Pr 2:1 ¶ My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
Pr 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
Pr 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
Pr 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Pr 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

 

The last time I checked, we don't find silver laying out in the open.   It is a long, hard, laborious process to mine the silver, then purify it, then make it appealling.

Not every subject will be cut and dried.

Salvation is a simple enough subject to grasp initially, but the more we study, the more we understand the depth of God's grace in salvation, and all of the attached blessings and benefits that go along with simply trusting Jesus Christ as our Saviour by faith.

It is simple - but complex.

 

There are some subjects that by their very nature will be more difficult to grasp and understand.  It will require more study to be able to come to a definitive conclusion, and answer all the questions and rhetoric of the more liberal persuasion with any amount of acceptable satisfaction.

 

But in the end, I think the answer is much simpler many imagine - they simply don't like being painted as the "old fuddy-duddy" the modern crowd paints us as.  So, they cave in...

 

We have to go beyond the surface looking for the magic "silver bullet" and find the applicable principles for today.  They are in there for those who want to do the work.  Those who choose to be lazy will continue going around in circles saying that the Bible does not have any clear answer for us....they are wrong.

 

Thank you, I do appreciate your stand. I will keep searching. I know that the day I stop looking is the day I die as a preacher.

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Musician4god1611, have you watched the video, Pop Goes the Music?  Have you read any of the selected titles from Majesty's bookstore?  Or maybe I should ask, which books you've read so I can compare your list to mine to bring up some of the information from these titles?

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Musician, I was only applying it to rock, and in fact as I pointed out, specifically to metal.
I think there can be no doubt that at that end of the scale there is indeed a "silver bullet".

There is gray in other areas though, but I do think the boundaries are not as vague as some suggest.

However, I know of some who feel they can take a definitive stand and then force that stand on others.

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Musician4god1611, have you watched the video, Pop Goes the Music?  Have you read any of the selected titles from Majesty's bookstore?  Or maybe I should ask, which books you've read so I can compare your list to mine to bring up some of the information from these titles?

Some of the things I have read (I don't think I can remember them all) is Whats Wrong With Christian Rock, Dancing With Demons, Don't Mess With My Music, a booklet published by Majesty Music that I cannot recall the name of (It was written by Frank Garlock), and several books on the history and culture of music (again titles escape me, I apologize)

 

Musician, I was only applying it to rock, and in fact as I pointed out, specifically to metal.
I think there can be no doubt that at that end of the scale there is indeed a "silver bullet".

There is gray in other areas though, but I do think the boundaries are not as vague as some suggest.

However, I know of some who feel they can take a definitive stand and then force that stand on others.

 

Whereas I agree that rock music is bad which componant of it makes it wrong, that is where I find the difficulty in explaining music.

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Amen! Which highlights the point that none of us are in a position to say "this, and only this music is acceptable". There will be differences between the churches. Some churches will have similar music as ours, some will have music that may be clearly wrong, and others will have music that falls into that area of preference or taste. It's not our calling to go about telling every church what we think of their music.

 

We certainly should be vigilant in our own churches, families and personal lives with regards to music (and all other things), and if we are doing that, we will be plenty busy and not have so much time to be policing other churches.

John, this is where you and I seem to have a difference of opinion. 

When I say that there will be differences in personal taste, local/regional culture, and nationalities, I do so with the understanding that there are some clear guidelines to judge our music by.  While those guidelines might be broad enough to include taste/culture/nations, it is also strict enough to say that there ARE guidelines, and therefore no matter where we are on the planet we can clearly define standards of music.  That is why I harp (!) so much on setting clear guidelines, because the guidelines won't change just because we change locations. 

While there may be differences between churches (which I accept and agree with), there can only be a limited amount of difference before somebody is just flat out wrong.  And while I defend our Baptist distinctive of autonomous congregations, I also reserve the God-given responsibility to rebuke those who stray from the true path of Scripture.  As a father and husband, it is my responsibility to not only protect my family from evil influences, but also to teach them WHY those influences are evil, and how to recognize the subtle attacks of our enemy.

So I don't think it is out of bounds for Br. Cloud to call out people like BJU, CHappel, Lancaster, WCBC, etc. etal when they begin to slide in their separation.  While it may seem insignificant to others, music affects us on too many levels to simply ignore the warnings and turn a blind eye to the over-arching principle Cloud is attempting to address, i.e. separation.

So let's say I walk into a church that has clean music, but I recognize (somehow!!!) a piece of music as something borrowed from CCM.  I am not going to stand up and start preaching from the audience.  Since I am a pastor, I might say something to the pastor of that church privately, or maybe not, depending on circumstances.  However, I will mark that church off my list of places to visit, and be sure to warn others of what I perceive to be dangerous.

 

Does that make sense???  (I hope so!)

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John, this is where you and I seem to have a difference of opinion. 

When I say that there will be differences in personal taste, local/regional culture, and nationalities, I do so with the understanding that there are some clear guidelines to judge our music by.  While those guidelines might be broad enough to include taste/culture/nations, it is also strict enough to say that there ARE guidelines, and therefore no matter where we are on the planet we can clearly define standards of music.  That is why I harp (!) so much on setting clear guidelines, because the guidelines won't change just because we change locations. 

While there may be differences between churches (which I accept and agree with), there can only be a limited amount of difference before somebody is just flat out wrong.  And while I defend our Baptist distinctive of autonomous congregations, I also reserve the God-given responsibility to rebuke those who stray from the true path of Scripture.  As a father and husband, it is my responsibility to not only protect my family from evil influences, but also to teach them WHY those influences are evil, and how to recognize the subtle attacks of our enemy.

So I don't think it is out of bounds for Br. Cloud to call out people like BJU, CHappel, Lancaster, WCBC, etc. etal when they begin to slide in their separation.  While it may seem insignificant to others, music affects us on too many levels to simply ignore the warnings and turn a blind eye to the over-arching principle Cloud is attempting to address, i.e. separation.

So let's say I walk into a church that has clean music, but I recognize (somehow!!!) a piece of music as something borrowed from CCM.  I am not going to stand up and start preaching from the audience.  Since I am a pastor, I might say something to the pastor of that church privately, or maybe not, depending on circumstances.  However, I will mark that church off my list of places to visit, and be sure to warn others of what I perceive to be dangerous.

 

Does that make sense???  (I hope so!)

Actually, if there were very clear guidelines it would seem someone would have put them forth over the past 2,000 years. Instead, most often, a few verses are cited and then very broadly applied (and applied differently by different pastors/churches/Christians) and then there is additional citations by man or that person as if what they are saying is virtually equal to Scripture.

 

As I look about, I do indeed see some music which seems clearly wrong for the church and some which seems clearly acceptable; and most here would probably agree at this point; but then there are some songs that don't fit into either of those more neat categories.

 

That's not even touching upon the inconsistency of how some determine good or bad music. Some will say a hymn written by Wesley is good, but a hymn written by a Methodist today is bad even if it's every bit as biblically sound as the hymn written by Methodist Wesley. (That's just an example)

 

The way some black folks sing Christian songs I love really eat at my nerves and I get no good from hearing those songs done in that way. However, the black folk in the church are edified and they praise and worship with that sound. Is this an area of preference/taste or is the way the blacks perform the song wrong, or the way we sing the song wrong?

 

When it comes to a big name church or Christian school promoting some music that's clearly wrong, I have no problem with someone pointing it out, but often it goes beyond that and becomes almost an obession with some who hound the issue into the ground and often in the doing make some very bad statements and comments. Once we have sounded a warning, it's up to others whether they heed the warning or not, it's not up to us to spend our lives trying to persuade them. This is one of the points of having independent churches (and schools). If one chooses to go wrong they will often attract those who want to go that way, which helps get them or keep them out of other churches/schools. At the same time, those within a church going wrong who don't want to go that way can move out of that church into a better church, which being independent has no connection with the church they left.

 

While I would be quick to raise questions within my own church if I thought some music coming in didn't seem right, I wouldn't do the same in anothers church as such a matter should be addressed by their congregation.

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Amen! Which highlights the point that none of us are in a position to say "this, and only this music is acceptable". There will be differences between the churches. Some churches will have similar music as ours, some will have music that may be clearly wrong, and others will have music that falls into that area of preference or taste. It's not our calling to go about telling every church what we think of their music.

 

We certainly should be vigilant in our own churches, families and personal lives with regards to music (and all other things), and if we are doing that, we will be plenty busy and not have so much time to be policing other churches.

 

I highly disagree, each local church is in the position to say what is acceptable for them. And there will always be some that will obey these verses.

 

 

Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
 
And many that will not.

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I highly disagree, each local church is in the position to say what is acceptable for them. And there will always be some that will obey these verses.

 

 

Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
 
And many that will not.

Disagree with what? I said each church is independent and their music is for them to decide.

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Disagree with what? I said each church is independent and their music is for them to decide.

 

This statement you made. "Amen! Which highlights the point that none of us are in a position to say "this, and only this music is acceptable"

 

We at our church can say this is the only music that is acceptable to us & its the only music, songs, we will use.

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This statement you made. "Amen! Which highlights the point that none of us are in a position to say "this, and only this music is acceptable"

 

We at our church can say this is the only music that is acceptable to us & its the only music, songs, we will use.

WOW, Bro, did you not read??????

His next sentence (and all following) made it clear that he wasn't saying that no one can say "such and such" in "church A" is wrong for "church A" but that "church A" can't dictate to "church B" what to adhere to.

 

His post and yours were in 100% agreement (unless you take the 1st sentence contextually isolated from the remainder of the paragraph).

:puzzled3:

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Psalm 150

 

1Praise ye the LORD.
Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

 

2Praise him for his
mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.


 

3Praise him with the
sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.


 

4Praise him with the
timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.


 

5Praise him upon the
loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.


 

6Let every thing that
hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

 

I even see a few percussion instruments in there....

 Meanwhile, I'm going to keep on playing my mandolin, banjo, dulcimer and guitars while some of y'all are trying to decide whether it's alright or not. We even have a couple of electric guitars, three violins, an upright piano, two basses, several harmonicas, an autoharp and a pennywhistle at our house....and we ain't even pentecostals :) Guitars are fine, y'all...praise the Lord with them.

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We had a lady coming along for a while who was utterly disappointed when I showed her that drums are used in the Bible to praise the Lord.
She was having an argument with her husband about it (he is Catholic - never could get him to see....).

She just could not see past the surface to the.principles behind it.
She wanted there to be no drums so.that she could say "Drums are not in the Bible so drums are wrong".
I tried to explain it to her, but she was just not interested - she was going to go and study it more so.she could prove that they were not drums..........

I think she is one of the biggest hurdles to her husband's salvation.

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"a booklet published by Majesty Music that I cannot recall the name of (It was written by Frank Garlock), "

 

I know Garlock wrote a paperback book, Music in the Balance.  If you have the same I suggest pulling it out and glancing through it again.  If memory serves he covers the different genres of music (rock,jazz, etc.).

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This statement you made. "Amen! Which highlights the point that none of us are in a position to say "this, and only this music is acceptable"

 

We at our church can say this is the only music that is acceptable to us & its the only music, songs, we will use.

I apologize for not making that portion more clear. I was referring to this with regards to other churches. As I mentioned later in the post, a church I'm a member of I would raise my voice of concern if music entered that I didn't think apprpriate, but wouldn't do that in someone elses church.

 

Sorry of my lack of clarity, we are saying the same thing, I just failed to say it clearly. Thank you for pointing out that easy to misunderstand sentence.

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We had a lady coming along for a while who was utterly disappointed when I showed her that drums are used in the Bible to praise the Lord.
She was having an argument with her husband about it (he is Catholic - never could get him to see....).

She just could not see past the surface to the.principles behind it.
She wanted there to be no drums so.that she could say "Drums are not in the Bible so drums are wrong".
I tried to explain it to her, but she was just not interested - she was going to go and study it more so.she could prove that they were not drums..........

I think she is one of the biggest hurdles to her husband's salvation.

 

Where does the Bible mention drums because I've never seen them in there. Timbrels and Cymbals, yes, but never drums.

Edited by musician4god1611

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A timbrel was either a drum or tamborine (which is really a hand drum)

Either way, it was a percussion instrument for keeping time or "rhythm".

Again, it's not the instrument, it's the INTENT:: Psalm 150 says to "praise ye the Lord" with your instrument no mattter what that instrument is. Obviously the intent of the folks down at the bar, the rock concert or the disco(do they still have those?)  is to exalt the FLESH instead of God. So the question really is: does our playing sound like the world's flesh exalting music or someone who is using it to shew forth God's "praise and lovingkindness"?

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Here’s a little history on electrically enhanced instruments
for you. The first instrument to have electricity applied to it was the organ
in the late 1890’s to early 1900’s. This was done to make the bellows operate by
electricity rather than by a foot pedal. In 1916 the Bell Company came out with
the first condensed microphone. Immediately musical artists began to experiment
with using it to enhance their performance. This was between 1916 and the early
1930’s. The pioneers of this project were the violin and the banjo. The banjo
didn’t find fruition until the 1930’s but in the early 1920’s the violin was a
success. Its primary use was jazz and blues. This struck interest in others and
particularly concern the guitar, piano, and the invention of the tonewheel
organ (what most of use consider the regular electric organ). The tonewheel
organ didn’t become successful until the 1930’s and the piano in 1929. The
guitar was no luckier, coming to fruition in 1931. It was put to quick work and
in 1932 in California it was played in the first public performance, by a band
from Wichita Kansas, playing, yes, that’s right, Hawaiian music. From there
many other instruments were electrically and electronically enhanced mostly
around the 1960’s to 1970’s.



 

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A timbrel was either a drum or tamborine (which is really a hand drum)

Either way, it was a percussion instrument for keeping time or "rhythm".

Again, it's not the instrument, it's the INTENT:: Psalm 150 says to "praise ye the Lord" with your instrument no mattter what that instrument is. Obviously the intent of the folks down at the bar, the rock concert or the disco(do they still have those?)  is to exalt the FLESH instead of God. So the question really is: does our playing sound like the world's flesh exalting music or someone who is using it to shew forth God's "praise and lovingkindness"?

 

I had always seen it as a tabret which I will agree is a sort of hand drum but I guess I just had my mind stuck on standard drums.

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Where does the Bible mention drums because I've never seen them in there. Timbrels and Cymbals, yes, but never drums.


That was the argument - he said they were drums, she said they weren't - she asked me, and I informed her that it was either a tambourine or hand drum.
She was quite upset about it, said I was wrong, and she went away to "study it and prove it".

She never mentioned it again.......

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Timbrels and cymbals are percussion instruments, as are drums (and, ahem, a piano is also a percussion instrument - as well as stringed...a hybrid, if you will  :icon_smile: ).  Percussion instruments are used to add additional accents (and often to keep time).  A good orchestra won't use a percussion instrument all of the time.  Imagine a music piece with cymbals clashing throughout, instead of accenting!  Talk about headaches - same thing with drums.  Triangles would be irritating if they were tapped throughout, instead of being used to add a bit of soft accent. 

 

Although the word "drum" isn't used in scripture, the idea of striking an instrument to bring forth sound (as cymbal, timbrel) is.  

 

As I said before, it isn't the instrument. It's how it's used.  

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      I really do not like large choir style music because I have a hard time picking out the words.
       
      thanks in advance. 
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