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Acoustic Guitars Ok?

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I always find it interesting that one argument in the music debate is that you must study and understand the metre, and things.such as syncopation before one can understand and discern truly Godly music, but the same standard is not suggested for many other areas.

I wonder if God truly requires a man to have a musical qualification before he can live Godly in the area of music?

A good point, not to mention Scripture doesn't stipulate anything at all about this.

 

Of course I've heard those who say if someone taps their toes or claps to a song, even a hymn, then that means the song/hymn is "sensual" and as such is of the flesh and must be rejected.

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I always find it interesting that one argument in the music debate is that you must study and understand the metre, and things.such as syncopation before one can understand and discern truly Godly music, but the same standard is not suggested for many other areas.

I wonder if God truly requires a man to have a musical qualification before he can live Godly in the area of music?

I just had this debate with someone on another forum and the issues on Biblical precedent on music appear to be adiophora. I think it is the exact opposition that those trained in music are the most critical. I think that those who understand it are less likely to condemn much of what the IFB considers sensual and devilish. 

Considering the proscriptions given in Psalm 150 there is very little Biblical evidence against much of the music that IFB condemns, which is why it is normally shelved in an adiophoric category because there's a lot of Biblical gymnastics that one must accomplish in order to make "make no provision for the flesh" fit every single condemnation of contemporary Christian music.

 

I have played guitar since I was about 6 years old. I grew up playing classical music, in the early 80s was in a rock band. There was a rock guitar player named Yngwie Malmsteen that influenced my playing because he turned Beethoven into heavy metal. So even classical music was for me a bridge into the world of heavy metal.

 

The issues that I have with contemporary music aren't the instruments, per say, but the doctrinal issues in the lyrics and I think that is the strongest argument against contemporary music instead of attacking issues that the laymen has no clue what you're talking about. The debate on another forum was that contemporary Christian music relies heavily on the dominance of successive 7 chord progressions. See, you are already going "huh??" (My personal favorite was the Phrygian Dominant Minor progression :) ) You will find a lot of new age and charismatic doctrine within most of the contemporary Christian music and for that reason alone, I would avoid the majority of it.

 

And in theory, there are musical progressions that in other cultures would be offensive. Japan uses the "Ioto" scale which is mostly a minor progression. Greece and even Israel use a form of the Dorian and Harmonic Minor scale, and most of the music that is described as acceptable practiced in the OT were based on scales that in today's conservative circles would be condemned. Even in the analogy used about the 7 chords, there are numerous hymns that incorporate the same progression, Victory in Jesus, How Great Thou Art, Amazing Grace ( "[G] Amazing grace, how [G7]sweet the sound"[G], that saved a wretch like me [D][D7]), Just A Closer Walk With Thee, all classic hymns that have a heavy 7 chord influence.

 

If making no provision for the flesh meant no moving your feet, or hands, then there should never be a conductor in front of a choir keeping the time for the choir. If all things are to be done decently and in order, then it is impossible to play music that is in order, without keeping the correct timing, and that timing has a specific beat syncopation, whether it's 4/4, 3/4 etc..and most musicians you see "tapping their feet" are not doing so to pleasure the flesh, but are doing so to stay in time with the phrases.

 

A guitar is the same instrument as a piano with less strings. In fact, a piano is closer to a worldly instrument than an acoustic guitar because a piano uses the same type of hammer to strike the string as a drum kit uses to strike the bass drum. So a piano is both a stringed instrument and percussion.

 

The problem with music is that music is like food, it is a matter of taste. I hate to use a worldly example, but in my heathen days, I could not stand Jimi Hendrix. I thought he was sloppy. I was a more technical musician. But others thought he was phenomenal. There are hymns that I love and other hymns I would pay good money to never be sung again in church. What the fundamentalists have attempted to do is create a Biblical doctrine that covers TASTE and apply it accross the board, and that just can't be done (which is part of what makes the debate adiaphora When the Bible is quoted "Make no provision for the flesh" most fundamentalists stop right there, but that's not what the whole verse says, the rest of it says "To FULLFUL THE LUSTS THEREOF".  There are some standards which DO cut across the board, and doctrinal correctness should be one of them which eliminates MOST of the contemporary Christian songs, but to single out individual instruments, even drums in some cases, is erroneous and can't be done with out extrapolating personal bias and opinion into Scripture where it doesn't belong.

Edited by DrJamesA

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Both sides of the argument have been well stated, so I'll just add my two rhetorical cents for the sake of provoking thought...

 

I think a critical question regarding music and various instruments should be "who or what is being edified?" and "does their inclusion cause anyone in your congregation to stumble?"

 

1 Corinthians 14 is sufficent commentary to state that everything should be done to edify the church and God/Jesus Christ and not the individual performing.  Romans 14:21 tells us it's best to abstain from or exclude things that might be a stumbling block to someone else.  I'd say as long as an instrument is used in a way the glorifies God and not an individual or worldly lifestyle and does not offend the congregation in a way that makes them more open to a worldly lifestyle then they are acceptable in that particular church.  As some people pointed out, they associate some instruments with a deplorable worldly activity while it never crosses the mind of someone else who doesn't intuitively draw that connection.  It is probably safe to say that all instruments have been used improperly at some point in history, so excluding anything that has been used outside of the church can only result in us adopting the practices of the Church of Christ  by forbidding all instruments.  I would also think that if we were to use some of the music used by the ancient Hebrews and Greeks most of us would be quite turned off by it.

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Both sides of the argument have been well stated, so I'll just add my two rhetorical cents for the sake of provoking thought...

 

I think a critical question regarding music and various instruments should be "who or what is being edified?" and "does their inclusion cause anyone in your congregation to stumble?"

 

1 Corinthians 14 is sufficent commentary to state that everything should be done to edify the church and God/Jesus Christ and not the individual performing.  Romans 14:21 tells us it's best to abstain from or exclude things that might be a stumbling block to someone else.  I'd say as long as an instrument is used in a way the glorifies God and not an individual or worldly lifestyle and does not offend the congregation in a way that makes them more open to a worldly lifestyle then they are acceptable in that particular church.  As some people pointed out, they associate some instruments with a deplorable worldly activity while it never crosses the mind of someone else who doesn't intuitively draw that connection.  It is probably safe to say that all instruments have been used improperly at some point in history, so excluding anything that has been used outside of the church can only result in us adopting the practices of the Church of Christ  by forbidding all instruments.  I would also think that if we were to use some of the music used by the ancient Hebrews and Greeks most of us would be quite turned off by it.

Very good points! The problem comes in when one group says they are indeed honouring God and worshipping Him with music "A" while another group insists that music "A" is of the world, fleshly or might be a stumbling block.

 

As Dr. James pointed out above, what is a matter of taste, or preference, and what is actually a biblical matter?

 

You are correct that different peoples and cultures have differing forms of musical expression. What is seen by some as bad or evil is seen as good and honorable by others. Are we to conclude that some forms and styles of music are bad or wrong simply because they are different than ours? What about those Christians in other cultures with differing music who view ours as bad, should we rid ourselves of the music we use in our churches because of that?

 

There are so many questions and variations within many of them.

 

Are we going to judge each church by the songs in their hymnal, the instruments in their church, whether they clap or tap their toes or not, by varying methods depending upon the age of the song, who wrote it, what form of Christianity they held to or hold to, are we going to investigate the religion of their parents and the music in their church...?

 

I'm thankful for the music we have in our church but no doubt not everyone would like it, either here in America or around the world, just as I wouldn't care for the music in many other churches.

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Very good points! The problem comes in when one group says they are indeed honouring God and worshipping Him with music "A" while another group insists that music "A" is of the world, fleshly or might be a stumbling block.

 

As Dr. James pointed out above, what is a matter of taste, or preference, and what is actually a biblical matter?

 

You are correct that different peoples and cultures have differing forms of musical expression. What is seen by some as bad or evil is seen as good and honorable by others. Are we to conclude that some forms and styles of music are bad or wrong simply because they are different than ours? What about those Christians in other cultures with differing music who view ours as bad, should we rid ourselves of the music we use in our churches because of that?

 

There are so many questions and variations within many of them.

 

Are we going to judge each church by the songs in their hymnal, the instruments in their church, whether they clap or tap their toes or not, by varying methods depending upon the age of the song, who wrote it, what form of Christianity they held to or hold to, are we going to investigate the religion of their parents and the music in their church...?

 

I'm thankful for the music we have in our church but no doubt not everyone would like it, either here in America or around the world, just as I wouldn't care for the music in many other churches.

Here is something you will NEVER see in an independent fundamental Baptist church LOL

 

"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting." I Tim 2:8

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Here is something you will NEVER see in an independent fundamental Baptist church LOL

 

"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting." I Tim 2:8

 

Lol! Well, sometimes you might see it... done very unobtrusively, by someone with a Pentecostal background... :wink

Edited by salyan

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To the "piano only" persuationists: why would you (IF you would) have a problem with a harp or an autoharp? Curiosity, not setting up a fight.

 

Incidentally, I don't like an organ. Because of the association with the RCC? Nope, because I feel like I'm in a funeral home when one is playing (not because funeral homes are "creepy", I'm not the least bit uncomfortable in funeral homes -- even in prep rooms).

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Once again we have turned the focus from the electric guitar to music itself, which is a much deeper more complex subject.

 

I always find it interesting that one argument in the music debate is that you must study and understand the metre, and things.such as syncopation before one can understand and discern truly Godly music, but the same standard is not suggested for many other areas.

I wonder if God truly requires a man to have a musical qualification before he can live Godly in the area of music?

 

I have considered this very thing, but one must be careful. I believe and have seen that God is very clear to the Christian what is wrong music (wrong because of the music, not the words), but it isn't something you can put down on paper and say here it is. The key to staying right in your music is to keep your heart right with God. Johann Sebastien Bach (who was, by the way, a Christian) said, The aim and end of all music should be none other than the glorification of God and the refreshing of the soul. I would be hard pressed to put it better. Music is to glorify God and without a pure heart we cannot glorify our Lord.

 

You know, I have seen these debates on music go round-n-round on many forums, and it is always the same debate.  There are a few who say that what Bible Believing Christians condemned in the past is now accepted.  They say that there is no consistency in how we determine clean Christian music from unclean music.  They say that since we accept music from not-so-doctrinally correct people in the past, that maybe we can do so now.

It is always the same argument....

 

What I have NOT seen from these people is any type of thorough, investigative study of the subject of music in general, or any type of substantial study of music in the Bible.  They stand on well rehearsed, good sounding rhetoric, but they fail in substance.  These people generally manipulate data to support their theories, but ignore vast amounts of condemning evidence.  They are looking for the "silver bullet" approach, when it is not quite so simple. 

Music is complicated. 

Even when we get clear guiding principles from the word of God, we will still have minor disagreements over what exactly is appropriate, and what is not.

 

However, there should be no question about adopting songs and music from people who are so diametrically opposed to the Bible, Jesus Christ, and all of the Biblical principles that we hold dear as independent Baptists.  Introducing songs by modern CCM artists should be nauseating to us as Bible Believers.  I can see absolutely no defense for it, when we know that they are not anywhere near what we believe. 

 

I cannot understand the mindset of the music leaders and pastors who condone such a thing.   And I will not accept anyone's lame arguments about what Bible Believers did in the past as a precedent for what we should do today.  In my view, that is a lazy way out of the debate.  I question their version of history, I question their understanding of history, I question their understanding of the differences between then and now,  I question their understanding of music in general, and I question their understanding of what the Bible has to say about the subject.  (PS - It has a LOT to say!!!)

 

So, in other words, if anyone here wants to defend the practices of BJU, WCBC, CHappell, or anyone else who is introducing this ecumenical worldly trash into our churches, I suggest you start giving us Scripture to defend your point of view.

 

It is not my intention to be mean or critical here.  So I ask that everyone reading this not interpret this post as any sort of personal attack on ANYONE.  I am simply tired of people making comments on these subjects, but never supporting their opinions with Scripture. 

Brethren, these things ought not to be so....

 

 

In Christ,

 

Let me start this by saying that, like ukulelemike, I have done a great deal of study. Not only into Rock and Roll and blues but also into country, jazz, classical, CCM, Traditional Gospel, heavy metal, death metal, soul, as well as many other genres. So I know ungodly music when I hear it. I like ukulelemike's answer and agree with him on all points except one. I believe that Psalm 66:4 makes it clear that music is an important part of worship. Here's my bigest issue with your post Steve, you got onto our side of the arguement for not using Scripture and you yourself have not used a single verse. Without Scripture there is no common ground and we could argue opinions all day long. Scripture has a lot to say about music yes, but it is about the words and your heart. Get those right and keep those right and you won't need to fret over the music itself, the Lord will be your guide.

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Once again we have turned the focus from the electric guitar to music itself, which is a much deeper more complex subject.

 

 

I have considered this very thing, but one must be careful. I believe and have seen that God is very clear to the Christian what is wrong music (wrong because of the music, not the words), but it isn't something you can put down on paper and say here it is. The key to staying right in your music is to keep your heart right with God. Johann Sebastien Bach (who was, by the way, a Christian) said, The aim and end of all music should be none other than the glorification of God and the refreshing of the soul. I would be hard pressed to put it better. Music is to glorify God and without a pure heart we cannot glorify our Lord.

 

 

Let me start this by saying that, like ukulelemike, I have done a great deal of study. Not only into Rock and Roll and blues but also into country, jazz, classical, CCM, Traditional Gospel, heavy metal, death metal, soul, as well as many other genres. So I know ungodly music when I hear it. I like ukulelemike's answer and agree with him on all points except one. I believe that Psalm 66:4 makes it clear that music is an important part of worship. Here's my bigest issue with your post Steve, you got onto our side of the arguement for not using Scripture and you yourself have not used a single verse. Without Scripture there is no common ground and we could argue opinions all day long. Scripture has a lot to say about music yes, but it is about the words and your heart. Get those right and keep those right and you won't need to fret over the music itself, the Lord will be your guide.

Doesn't this leave a decent amount of room for things such as taste and preference?

 

Most here would probably say "Amazing Grace" is a good, acceptable song. Even so, that song can be performed in numerous ways (with or without instrumentation). I know how I prefer to hear it and when done in that manner I find myself drawn to the Lord in deep worship. At the same time, I've heard the song performed in ways I didn't care for, and I got little to nothing out of it, yet others did.

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I always find it interesting that one argument in the music debate is that you must study and understand the metre, and things.such as syncopation before one can understand and discern truly Godly music, but the same standard is not suggested for many other areas.

I wonder if God truly requires a man to have a musical qualification before he can live Godly in the area of music?

 

Of course not. And many of the the ways done in the past were not wrong & are still not wrong. Its more about change & rebellion from God & keeping up with the world. And that keeping up with the world crowd isn't very pleasant.

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Doesn't this leave a decent amount of room for things such as taste and preference?

 

Most here would probably say "Amazing Grace" is a good, acceptable song. Even so, that song can be performed in numerous ways (with or without instrumentation). I know how I prefer to hear it and when done in that manner I find myself drawn to the Lord in deep worship. At the same time, I've heard the song performed in ways I didn't care for, and I got little to nothing out of it, yet others did.

I won't deny that it does. When you get into things like this emotion, taste, preference, and preception are all at work and it becomes dificult to come to a definite conclusion. Then when you add things like rhetoric and traditionalism it becomes an impenetrable maze of words and feelings. It really is no wonder that so many IFB disagree. Any "gray" areas will do this but this, in my observation, is perhaps the worst.

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We have a full orchestra in our church - and the music is beautiful.  There are no guitars in the orchestra, acoustic or otherwise, and I think that's the personal preference of our pastor.  There are people in our church who play guitar, and they use it in nursing home, etc. 

 

It isn't the instrument that is the problem.  It's the way it's played.  Just as in everything in life...

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Again, all of this points to the fact that there is no set standard among IFBs (or other Christians) with regards to music. 

Without a consistent, set standard regarding music, much of this debate can lead nowhere but to further debate and damage to IFBs as a whole.

 

 

Scripture provides the answer if one seeks to know it.  I've posted the books that explain the doctrines and you've said you've even read some of them but still keep saying there's no standard.  We have God's standard Brother John.

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Scripture provides the answer if one seeks to know it.  I've posted the books that explain the doctrines and you've said you've even read some of them but still keep saying there's no standard.  We have God's standard Brother John.

 

Please give me a verse...or two or more, to prove what you say. I want to make it clear that I do not want to seem haughty, I truly want to see these Scriptures. It is the standard by which I base my life and I don't want to oppose it.

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I can give you a clear verse that indicates a.style of music that is not honouring to the Lord.

Ex 32
17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.

18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.

Joshua said "It sound like a war going on in the camp", and Moses said "no, it is the people singing".
Sounds like an unlikely mistake doesn't it? That someone could mistake a song for a battle?

So what was the "noise of war in those days"?

The clashing and clanging of metal upon metal, the thud of club upon shield, and the shrieking of those run through by spears.

Sounds to me like a pretty serious rock concert in fact.
In fact if you want to.get technical about it, the closest thing we have today that fits that description is metal music.

And remember that they couldn't hear the words that were being spoken - the issue was the style.

The one passage that I know of (not.saying it is the only passage in the Bible) speaks plainly against a style of music that sounds like war.

I think there are plenty of styles that are not honouring to God by the way, but I don't see it as being necessary to.have a music degree to know - some knowledge and understanding of music yes,but not a deep knowledge of music.

I had a tape (yes a tape!) That was mostly great, but they the song "blessed assurance", a song which I think is great, and we sing in church - but in serious reggae style.
It was just wrong.........

But vast majority of argument is based upon preference, and indeed bias against the man, not in true Biblical preference - and remember, there is room for preference, just as long as it is not unbiblical, and not forced upon other INDEPENDENT churches.

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Again, all of this points to the fact that there is no set standard among IFBs (or other Christians) with regards to music. The historical context doesn't argue for following one or another side but simply points out the fact this debate regarding music is centuries old and at various points over the centuries there have been those who opposed hymns, instruments, and later new hymns and different instruments; while at the same time there were those who embraced them. All of that leading to what we do or don't have in our churches today and the continuation of the disagreements with regards to music.

 

It seems odd that we should study musicical history, even secular musical history, but we shouldn't consider music in the context of our Christian history.

 

Even so, when it comes right down to it there are few sitting in the pews who could tell us the author of a song they just sang in church, or what that author believed (or believes), and even fewer have any knowledge or understanding of music beyond what they prefer and dislike.

 

What seems clearly good to one Baptist may be denounced by the next. I've even heard white Baptists declare that the music in black Baptist churches is great for blacks, that it allows them to express themselves to God, yet they proclaim the same music is wrong, even sinful, in white churches. I've also heard black Baptists talk about how dead the music is in white Baptist churches and fails to truly praise God.

 

We have sound Baptist pastors who say one thing regarding music and others who say something opposite, and still others who say something different than either of those.

 

Who is to decide what is or isn't acceptable in an Independent Baptist church when there is no consensus among IFBs regarding the issue? Do we each simply declare we are right, everyone else wrong, and then spend our time denouncing one another?

 

Without a consistent, set standard regarding music, much of this debate can lead nowhere but to further debate and damage to IFBs as a whole.

Well, John, I think we could get a lot closer to a consensus within IFB churches if the preachers would start spending some serious time studying the matter out.  For instance, Paul Chappel wasted - yes, WASTED - a good bit of time writing four articles on the subject of "Decluttering your life." 

I don't need psychotherapy from a preacher, I need God's word.  My people expect to be fed when they come to church.  They would run me out in a heartbeat if I ever tried to give them that kind of slop.

I truly believe that if the preachers would spend some time developing their understanding of this complex issue, and spend time in the word of God studying what the Bible says about music, worship, and praise, then we could get somewhere.

One of the biggest reasons we keep going around in the same circles on this subject is because we have left the debate in the hands of the "experts" - whether those "experts" are conservative (Frank Garlock/Ron Hamilton types) or more "liberal" (CCM proponents.)
I am not saying everyone has to become an "expert" in music to understand the debate, but I am saying that preachers have abrogated their role in the church by not studying the subject and preaching on it regularly.

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I have considered this very thing, but one must be careful. I believe and have seen that God is very clear to the Christian what is wrong music (wrong because of the music, not the words), but it isn't something you can put down on paper and say here it is. The key to staying right in your music is to keep your heart right with God. Johann Sebastien Bach (who was, by the way, a Christian) said, The aim and end of all music should be none other than the glorification of God and the refreshing of the soul. I would be hard pressed to put it better. Music is to glorify God and without a pure heart we cannot glorify our Lord.

 

I think we can get some pretty strong guidelines from the Bible, and actually come up with something we could put down on paper and actually say, "here it is."  It is possible, once we do a thorough study of the Bible on the subject.

 

 

 

Let me start this by saying that, like ukulelemike, I have done a great deal of study. Not only into Rock and Roll and blues but also into country, jazz, classical, CCM, Traditional Gospel, heavy metal, death metal, soul, as well as many other genres. So I know ungodly music when I hear it. I like ukulelemike's answer and agree with him on all points except one. I believe that Psalm 66:4 makes it clear that music is an important part of worship. Here's my bigest issue with your post Steve, you got onto our side of the arguement for not using Scripture and you yourself have not used a single verse. Without Scripture there is no common ground and we could argue opinions all day long. Scripture has a lot to say about music yes, but it is about the words and your heart. Get those right and keep those right and you won't need to fret over the music itself, the Lord will be your guide.

My purpose with my post was to demonstrate my frustration with the entire argument being advanced by the CCM proponents.  Pointing to one unclear passage or verse hardly proves a point.  I have neither the time nor the space to treat the topic as it should at this point, so I will refrain from taking potshots with the Scriptures.  I am not going to throw out one or two verses and pretend like that covers the subject.  As many have said here, it is a complex subject, and requires an indepth study. 

I have done a fairly deep study of music from the Bible in the past, and I am now working on an exhaustive treatment of the subject - but that will take quite a bit of time.   So I would not hold your breath waiting for that to come out.  

The bottom line is that the CCM proponents - or even those who would integrate "cleaned up" versions of CCM songs - like to do the "hit-and-run" type thing.  None of them, so far as I have seen, are willing to present a fair, objective, thorough study of the subject.

I say fair, becasue they take the absence of the "silver bullet" verse as a license to do whatever they want musically.

I say objective, because they so often omit so much evidence that condemns rock music in general.  (They do, after all, have an agenda!)

I say thorough, because they like to point to Psalm 150, which is unclear, and hardly definitive, but in so doing, they completely gloss over important guiding principles throughout Scripture.

 

Yes, it is frustrating from my point of view, because it is so crystal clear to me.  If I can come to some sound conclusions from Scripture without consulting tons of musical "experts," then I have proven that the answers are in fact in the Scriptures.  If I can find them, then why is it that so many are reluctant to even look, let alone study the subject out in the Bible????

 

My point is not to attempt to educate anyone in particular here.  My point is to say that God would not have set us adrift without CLEAR guidelines from His word....it is all in there...we just have to be willing to SEARCH, Meditate, think, and apply Scriptural principles - which are timeless - to today's dilema.

 

In Christ,

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Scripture provides the answer if one seeks to know it.  I've posted the books that explain the doctrines and you've said you've even read some of them but still keep saying there's no standard.  We have God's standard Brother John.

Those books don't provide a set standard, only the authors idea of what they believe the standards should be. This is why you can get a couple hundred IFB pastors in a room and they won't all agree on all matters of music.

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Those books don't provide a set standard, only the authors idea of what they believe the standards should be. This is why you can get a couple hundred IFB pastors in a room and they won't all agree on all matters of music.

The reason why this is so, John, is because even our preachers want the "silver bulllet."  They don't want to work it out for themselves.

I guess this points to a deeper problem.  Our preachers go to Bible colleges and seminaries, and are taught what to believe.  When they get out, all they can do is parrot what they were taught. 

They don't know how to verify anything for themselves.

They don't really know how to dig down deep into the word of God and add to the knowledge they have gained from school. 

They don't know how to approach a subject, and what is required to do an exhaustive treatment of a complex subject. 

 

Parrots....

So when someone begins to question what we are doing in an IFB church, the pastor, who cannot study for himself, either lashes out with the Pastoral Authority card, or he compromises because he can't find a good, solid, Scriptural reason to stand where he is.

 

It truly is disturbing to me that our pulpits are filled with an unthinking, passive, parroting group of preachers who don't seem to be able to find any fresh oil for themselves.

They mistake ACTION for service, but forget David's exhortation:

Psalms 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Edited by Steve Schwenke

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The reason why this is so, John, is because even our preachers want the "silver bulllet."  They don't want to work it out for themselves.

I guess this points to a deeper problem.  Our preachers go to Bible colleges and seminaries, and are taught what to believe.  When they get out, all they can do is parrot what they were taught. 

They don't know how to verify anything for themselves.

They don't really know how to dig down deep into the word of God and add to the knowledge they have gained from school. 

They don't know how to approach a subject, and what is required to do an exhaustive treatment of a complex subject. 

 

Parrots....

So when someone begins to question what we are doing in an IFB church, the pastor, who cannot study for himself, either lashes out with the Pastoral Authority card, or he compromises because he can't find a good, solid, Scriptural reason to stand where he is.

 

It truly is disturbing to me that our pulpits are filled with an unthinking, passive, parroting group of preachers who don't seem to be able to find any fresh oil for themselves.

They mistake ACTION for service, but forget David's exhortation:

Psalms 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Why would God make it so hard to know His will concerning music that even pastors don't get it unless they spend countless hours not only studying Scripture on the matter, but in studying music and music history?

 

I agree, there are some songs and some styles of music I see as totally wrong for the church. Then there is the rest of the songs and music. Some of which I agree most of us would find acceptable, but then there are the others that we may have varying degrees of difference.

 

Then, when we broaden it out to include other churches, churches with differing races and cultures, churches in other countries, or even different parts of this country, we run ever more into just what is or isn't a matter of taste or preference.

 

The fact all this has gone on for centuries lends evidence there is no clear cut line. When hymns were first introduced there were many who said only the psalms were appropriate for church. There have been battles over various musical instruments over the years, including opposition to what is now considered standard church instruments, the organ and piano. When Moody was making his rounds many of the conservative churches denounced the music he used, which today is considered standard.

 

I only mention those things as a means of pointing out this issue over music isn't something new, but something Christians have wrestled with for centuries.

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And I will agree that taste, preference, nationality, and local/regional culture will be a determining factor in what each individual church will deem acceptable. 

 

My only point here is that the Biblical guidelines are not nearly as vague as most people make them out to be.

 

To answer your question as to why God would make it so hard???

Pr 2:1 ¶ My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
Pr 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
Pr 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
Pr 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Pr 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

 

The last time I checked, we don't find silver laying out in the open.   It is a long, hard, laborious process to mine the silver, then purify it, then make it appealling.

Not every subject will be cut and dried.

Salvation is a simple enough subject to grasp initially, but the more we study, the more we understand the depth of God's grace in salvation, and all of the attached blessings and benefits that go along with simply trusting Jesus Christ as our Saviour by faith.

It is simple - but complex.

 

There are some subjects that by their very nature will be more difficult to grasp and understand.  It will require more study to be able to come to a definitive conclusion, and answer all the questions and rhetoric of the more liberal persuasion with any amount of acceptable satisfaction.

 

But in the end, I think the answer is much simpler many imagine - they simply don't like being painted as the "old fuddy-duddy" the modern crowd paints us as.  So, they cave in...

 

We have to go beyond the surface looking for the magic "silver bullet" and find the applicable principles for today.  They are in there for those who want to do the work.  Those who choose to be lazy will continue going around in circles saying that the Bible does not have any clear answer for us....they are wrong.

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And I will agree that taste, preference, nationality, and local/regional culture will be a determining factor in what each individual church will deem acceptable. 

 

My only point here is that the Biblical guidelines are not nearly as vague as most people make them out to be.

 

To answer your question as to why God would make it so hard???

Pr 2:1 ¶ My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
Pr 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
Pr 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
Pr 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Pr 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

 

The last time I checked, we don't find silver laying out in the open.   It is a long, hard, laborious process to mine the silver, then purify it, then make it appealling.

Not every subject will be cut and dried.

Salvation is a simple enough subject to grasp initially, but the more we study, the more we understand the depth of God's grace in salvation, and all of the attached blessings and benefits that go along with simply trusting Jesus Christ as our Saviour by faith.

It is simple - but complex.

 

There are some subjects that by their very nature will be more difficult to grasp and understand.  It will require more study to be able to come to a definitive conclusion, and answer all the questions and rhetoric of the more liberal persuasion with any amount of acceptable satisfaction.

 

But in the end, I think the answer is much simpler many imagine - they simply don't like being painted as the "old fuddy-duddy" the modern crowd paints us as.  So, they cave in...

 

We have to go beyond the surface looking for the magic "silver bullet" and find the applicable principles for today.  They are in there for those who want to do the work.  Those who choose to be lazy will continue going around in circles saying that the Bible does not have any clear answer for us....they are wrong.

This is much clearer in explaining your position, thank you.

 

I know where I stand on music but I don't know that it would be right for me to tell other churches that their music is wrong (unless it is CLEARLY wrong). Of course, now that I'm thinking about that, what is and isn't considered clearly wrong, even among those who study such matters, isn't the same.

 

In some cases we do spend too much time carrying on about the music in someone elses independent church rather than tending to our own.

 

In any event, I appreciate your contribution here.

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I'm reading a lot about taste, cultures, preferences, and so forth. What about God's taste? Do we consider this, at all? Or is it all according to OUR personal preferences?

 

How can we know if it might be of God's taste? I suppose the same way we know if anything is pleasing to the Lord: holiness, separation, sanctification, whichever terms you want to use.

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I'm reading a lot about taste, cultures, preferences, and so forth. What about God's taste? Do we consider this, at all? Or is it all according to OUR personal preferences?

 

How can we know if it might be of God's taste? I suppose the same way we know if anything is pleasing to the Lord: holiness, separation, sanctification, whichever terms you want to use.

That's the line we are looking for, that line which divides between a song being Christ honouring but not to our liking, and a song we don't like because it really doesn't honour the Lord.

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