The Third Woe

[Ukulelemike]

First, Eric is right about those who do not believe being deceived because they rejected the truth:

So, I am deceived because all through the Bible, the New Testament, the ONLY seal given for believers is the Holy Spirit. But, you say there is a special seal, something different, though unmentioned, because it is mentioned as being in their foreheads. I see no reason to believe anything but what is already spelled out in the Bible-the job of the Holy Spirit is to seal believers.

 

Also, again, we assume it is the Spirit that will be taken out of the way, yet again, it is not said. Where in Scripture is it said to tbe the job of the Holy Spirit to keep Satan from taking over? In fact, it is MIchael, the prince who is the only one ever seen disputing with Satan, save for Jesus Himself, both in Daniel and Jude. Seems he would be a better candidate for being the one who now letteth until he is taken out of the way.

   In fact, the wording is kind of odd if it IS the Spirit, because He, being God, the third person of the Godhead, would not need to be 'taken out of the way", but would merely remove Himself. Someone more under authority would be 'taken out of the way'. It implies being given direction to move, not moving of one's own volition.

 

MInd you, I am not arguing timing of the rapture here, just saying that our belief of the Spirit holding back Antichrist is based upon assumption, not scripture, and if He seals, then there's no reason to believe there could be any other sealing. It is the possesion of the Holy Ghost that makes one a saint-there can be no saint without Him, yet we clearly see saints mentioned during the tribulation period.  The Spirit also teaches us, speaks to us, guides us, and keeps us aright, and empowers us for service-if those saints haven't the direction and power of the Spirit, how can they remain right before the Lord, and how will they have power to be witnesses to others.

 

And what of the two witnesses? Where will they receive their power to do the wonders and works they do? Those powers were always through the Spirit. Will they possess these powers inherently, with no control, and no God-given wisdom on their proper use?

[Ukulelemike]

John 16:7-8 tells us that the comforter reproves sin when he comes into the believers. Before Jesus came, the Old Testament saints were not sealed by the Holy Spirit. It will be like that in the tribulation period. The 144000 Jews will be sealed for a purpose as the Old Testament saints were.

If they are not sealed, then they will, of necessity, need to keep the Law perfectly to be saved. Jesus, as Saviour, came and died for the sin of the world. Those who receive Him as Saviour receive the Holy Ghost to seal them, and thus, free them frm the law. If there is no Spirit, then Jesus' sacrifice is of no avail to them and they must then keep the law. Without the Spirit, one can't enter into Heaven-the OT righteous dead entered into Paradise, not Heaven, until Christ died and preached to them. So, these 144,000, and whoever else is converted by them, will die and enter Paradise, not Heaven, because they have not a new life within them. Christ and the Spirit are a package deal-the Spirit is the New Man. 

 

OT saints weren't sealed at all- Ezekiel 3:20 "Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

 

Here, all a righteius man had to do was turn and commit sin, and he would die in his sin if he didn't turn again. It was based on living a righteous life, keeping the law with faith, keeping with the sacrifices, etc. If one lived righteously for years, but at the end fell into sin, he would die in his sins and be lost.

[Dr James Ach]

So, I am deceived because all through the Bible, the New Testament, the ONLY seal given for believers is the Holy Spirit. But, you say there is a special seal, something different, though unmentioned, because it is mentioned as being in their foreheads. I see no reason to believe anything but what is already spelled out in the Bible-the job of the Holy Spirit is to seal believers.

 

Also, again, we assume it is the Spirit that will be taken out of the way, yet again, it is not said. Where in Scripture is it said to tbe the job of the Holy Spirit to keep Satan from taking over? In fact, it is MIchael, the prince who is the only one ever seen disputing with Satan, save for Jesus Himself, both in Daniel and Jude. Seems he would be a better candidate for being the one who now letteth until he is taken out of the way.

   In fact, the wording is kind of odd if it IS the Spirit, because He, being God, the third person of the Godhead, would not need to be 'taken out of the way", but would merely remove Himself. Someone more under authority would be 'taken out of the way'. It implies being given direction to move, not moving of one's own volition.

 

MInd you, I am not arguing timing of the rapture here, just saying that our belief of the Spirit holding back Antichrist is based upon assumption, not scripture, and if He seals, then there's no reason to believe there could be any other sealing. It is the possesion of the Holy Ghost that makes one a saint-there can be no saint without Him, yet we clearly see saints mentioned during the tribulation period.  The Spirit also teaches us, speaks to us, guides us, and keeps us aright, and empowers us for service-if those saints haven't the direction and power of the Spirit, how can they remain right before the Lord, and how will they have power to be witnesses to others.

 

And what of the two witnesses? Where will they receive their power to do the wonders and works they do? Those powers were always through the Spirit. Will they possess these powers inherently, with no control, and no God-given wisdom on their proper use?

No where in the NT prior to Revelation, is a believer said to have a name "written in their foreheads" as evidence of being sealed by the Holy Spirit. This is the description however,of believers during the tribulation (just one more evidence that the church doesn't go through the tribulation as well). 

Usage of the word "saint" doesn't mean "sealed". Being called a saint is not limited to the church age, the term was also used to describe OT believers. 2 Chron 6:41, Job 5:1, Ps 16:3, Ps 30:4, Ps 52:9, Ps 149:1. And notice that "many of the body of the SAINTS arose" after the resurrection of Christ, (Matt 27:52) BEFORE the Holy Spirit was given at Pentacost in Acts 2.

 

Now regarding 2 Thess 2, the "restrainer", whoever this restrainer was has restrained the total dominance of lawlessness on this entire earth. This restraint with man goes all the way back to Genesis 6:2 where God said "My Spirit will not always strive with man". The Holy Spirit is the only one that has that kind of power. 

Michael is the archangel to Israel (Dan 12:1). Michael never had the power to fight Satan as seen in Daniel 10:13 where he was held up for 3 weeks. Jude also states that Michael did not "bring a railing accusation against him {Satan} but said 'the Lord rebuke thee'" Jude 9.

 

Therefore, to be taken OUT OF the way, someone had to be IN THE WAY in the first place, and that person was clearly not MIchael the archangel. Michael is not given authority to battle against Satan until the middle of tribulation in Rev 12:7. Furthermore, 2 Thess 2:7 says "until he be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY". How would  Michael being "taken out of the way" permit the lawlessness of the antichrist to flourish? Not only is that impossibe given the above verses, but Michael is PARTICIPATING in war against Satan in Rev 12:9, not being taken out of the way, and as I said, this is the first time where Michael is given limited authority over the dragon, and in this instant, it is to remove Satan from where he had previously had access to heaven (Zech 3:1).

 

And just as you mentioned Ezek 3, the tribulation is a return to that which is why it is called the time of Jacob's trouble, and where Israel is to "finish the transgression". This is why you see works mixed with faith, and keeping of the OT commandments in Revelation:

 

*These are they which keep the COMMANDMENTS OF GOD and the faith of Jesus" Rev 14:12

*Blessed is he that watcheth AND KEEPETH HIS GARMENTS" Rev 16:15. No where in the epistles is the church told to keep their garments

*"And they sing the SONG OF MOSES the servant of God, and of the Lamb" Rev 15:3. Who sings this song? Those who "had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" 15:2

*"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to eat of the tree of life" Rev 22:14 with Rev 2:7 "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

 

During the tribulation, evidence that one believes in Christ is demonstrated by being killed for it. "And when he opened the 5th seal, I saw under the alter them there were slain for the word of God, and the testimony which they held" Rev 6:9, "And white robes were given unto every one of them, and it was said unto them that they should rest yet a little seaon until their fellowservants also, and their brethren that should be killed as they were should be fulfilledf" 6:11. "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life" Rev 2:10; "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death" Rev 12:11. 

 

The theme for the believer in Revelation is SURVIVAL, the theme in the church age is "go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature". You don't see that command given to any believer in the tribulation. In fact, you see the gospel being delivered by an ANGEL in Revelation 14. "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, HAVING THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL TO PREACH unto them that dwell on the earth" 14:6. Now why would that be necessary if the church was there? or if that were the mission of believers during that time?

 

This is why it is important to understand Daniel's 70th week, and how end times is strictly revolved around the nation of Israel. Only with that understand can one see the role of the Jewish churches in Rev 2-3, and properly understand the book of Hebrews where difficult passages in ch 6 and 10, and Matthew 24 ('he that endureth to the end shall be saved"),  relate to tribulation saints and not the church, and how Revelation goes back to finish where Israel left off to finish the 70th week which is why the events and admonitions of the tribulation do not come with the same prescriptions as the church age.

[Dr James Ach]

(((Dr James A the Babylonians were east from Israel. Moscow is directly north of Jerusalem)))

This is assuming that the verse in question was actually talking about Moscow (Gog) and not the Chaldeans, not sure which reference or statement you are reffering to here though. But the Chaldeans were a precursor to the Babylonians and both are north of Israel.

(((America will support Israel because God calls them too. )))

I really wouldn't offer any different explanation than I already gave for the reason that America isn't going to be involved in assisting Israel. That evidence from Exodus 19:4 shows the law of first mention regarding the eagles wings is a reference to God Himself orchestrating their deliverance into the wilderness. He didn't use any other nation to assist Him in their deliverance from Pharoah and He won't use any other assistance in Rev 12 accept the same manner of help from the earth that He caused in Exodus.

(((America is the daughter of Babylon because that is where most of Zion lives now that the Jews have gone home to Israel form the Russian north. See Zechariah 2:6-7)))

Being the daughter of Babylon is not a good thing. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that America inherited that title because of housing the Jews, and as I said, that's not a good title to have. Notice the double references to their fall in Rev 14:8 "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" Rome does not have near the influence today that America. They have the money and the religious influence, but there are certain things that describe the other Babylon that doesn't fit Rome, like the "slaves" of Rev 18:13. In fact, if you study all of the items that this city is notorious for from Rev 18:12-14, you will find several other nations whom dominate those categories that are under Roman influence.
You have to keep in mind that just because Rev 17 clearly identifies the beast as Rome, doesn't mean that the seat has to be IN ROME, this is evident by the fact that Jesus gives other locations for where Satan dwells in Rev 2:13 (Pergamos), and during the entire Roman Empire, many provinces were considered Roman territory (Constantinople for example) even though they were not technically Rome/Italy proper. America is clearly a part of the revived Roman Empire, which is why God tells his people to come out from her. Why would God tell his people to come out from a place (Rev 18:4, Zech 2:7) if He was going to use that place to help her?

Zechariah prophesied that when Israel returned to the land and Jerusalem outgrew its walls as it does today, the Lord will return. He will be a burning fire who will destroy Israel’s enemies, but unfortunately, He will also destroy Israel’s unholy people, those who do not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

 

Zechariah 2:6–7 KJV
6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.
7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.

Again, it says they dwell with the daughter of Babylon, not that the daughter helps them. Clearly the reason God wants them to leave is to only avoid being a partaker of her sins, but because she WONT help her.

Now that over one and a quarter million Jews have returned to Israel from Russia, we know that Russia is the land of the north spoken of by the prophets. In verse seven, Zechariah warned another group of Jews to go home to Israel when the Russian Jews return. It is the six million Jews in America that Zechariah is telling to go home from the daughter of Babylon. Why? The American Jews are the last large population of Jews outside of Israel. The presence of the Jews in America indicates that America is the daughter of Babylon.

(((Dr James A only the women and children will be evacuated by the eagle of America. The men will remain in Israel to fight until the antichrist wins and turns against them. Then all the nations will come against Israel and surround it. See Zechariah 14:1-5a

Zechariah 14:1–5a KJV
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided
in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal.

Zechariah saw a vision of Jewish women being rescued. In the middle of the tribulation, the Antichrist will come against Israel because they will not worship him or his image. As the armies of the world close in on the remnant of Israel, everything looks lost and hopeless.
However, at that time, the Lord Jesus will help Israel by making a way of escape. Jesus will split the Mount of Olives from east to west so that it forms a great valley when the two halves of the Mount of Olives move north and south. Israel will flee down that valley to the east while the armies of the world are stranded on the top of the Mount of Olives and all around Jerusalem.

Revelation 12:15–17 KJV
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Satan will send a great army of soldiers to pursue the fleeing Jews. Do you remember what happened to the king of Egypt’s armies when they chased Israel through the divided Red Sea in the book of Exodus? (See Exodus 14:21–31.) Something similar is going to happen again. When the army of the Antichrist follows Israel down the valley, the Mount of Olives will swallow them, infuriating Satan.

Isaiah 16:1–5 KJV
1 Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.
2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.
3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.
4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Jesus, the Lamb of God, is going to sit on the throne of Israel. Jesus comes to Israel to split the Mount of Olives so that Israel can flee from the dragon and the Antichrist’s army. Israel will go east, down the Lord’s valley, cross the Jordan River, turn right, and travel about one-third of the way down the other side of the Dead Sea to the river ford or the river crossing on the Arnon River in the country of Jordan and stay with the survivors of Moab.

The rest of that I am in agreement between here and my last comment, the only thing I am not in agreement with is any role that America would have in that context.

Edited December 31, 2012 by DrJamesA

[Eric Stahl]

This is assuming that the verse in question was actually talking about Moscow (Gog) and not the Chaldeans, not sure which reference or statement you are reffering to here though. But the Chaldeans were a precursor to the Babylonians and both are north of Israel.

I really wouldn't offer any different explanation than I already gave for the reason that America isn't going to be involved in assisting Israel. That evidence from Exodus 19:4 shows the law of first mention regarding the eagles wings is a reference to God Himself orchestrating their deliverance into the wilderness. He didn't use any other nation to assist Him in their deliverance from Pharoah and He won't use any other assistance in Rev 12 accept the same manner of help from the earth that He caused in Exodus.

Being the daughter of Babylon is not a good thing. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that America inherited that title because of housing the Jews, and as I said, that's not a good title to have. Notice the double references to their fall in Rev 14:8 "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" Rome does not have near the influence today that America. They have the money and the religious influence, but there are certain things that describe the other Babylon that doesn't fit Rome, like the "slaves" of Rev 18:13. In fact, if you study all of the items that this city is notorious for from Rev 18:12-14, you will find several other nations whom dominate those categories that are under Roman influence.
You have to keep in mind that just because Rev 17 clearly identifies the beast as Rome, doesn't mean that the seat has to be IN ROME, this is evident by the fact that Jesus gives other locations for where Satan dwells in Rev 2:13 (Pergamos), and during the entire Roman Empire, many provinces were considered Roman territory (Constantinople for example) even though they were not technically Rome/Italy proper. America is clearly a part of the revived Roman Empire, which is why God tells his people to come out from her. Why would God tell his people to come out from a place (Rev 18:4, Zech 2:7) if He was going to use that place to help her?

Again, it says they dwell with the daughter of Babylon, not that the daughter helps them. Clearly the reason God wants them to leave is to only avoid being a partaker of her sins, but because she WONT help her.

The rest of that I am in agreement between here and my last comment, the only thing I am not in agreement with is any role that America would have in that context.

Dr James A,

 

The city of Babylon is about 500 miles directly east of Jerusalem.

 

PAUL INDICATES THAT sudden destruction will come upon Israel after the Antichrist signs the peace treaty with many to divide the land of Israel. The Jews will finally feel safe. When the Jews feel safe, Ezekiel 38:4 explains that God will put a hook in the jaw of Magog or Russia and draw her and the Islamic alliance to attack Israel.

 

Daniel 11:36–45 KJV

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt him- self, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south((Egypt)) push at him((666)): and the king of the north ((Syria))shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land((Israel)), and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.((Jordan))

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east((Persia)) and out of the north((Russia)) shall trouble him: therefore he((666)) shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

45 And he((666)) shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

 

During the tribulation the antichrist will put his base camp in Israel after destroying Syria and Egypt. When God puts a hook in the Jaw of Russia and draws it to Israel, the armies of the antichrist will already be there in Israel. The seat of the beast is in Israel during the wars of the tribulation.

[Dr James Ach]

Dr James A,

 

The city of Babylon is about 500 miles directly east of Jerusalem.

 

PAUL INDICATES THAT sudden destruction will come upon Israel after the Antichrist signs the peace treaty with many to divide the land of Israel. The Jews will finally feel safe. When the Jews feel safe, Ezekiel 38:4 explains that God will put a hook in the jaw of Magog or Russia and draw her and the Islamic alliance to attack Israel.

 

Daniel 11:36–45 KJV

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt him- self, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south((Egypt)) push at him((666)): and the king of the north ((Syria))shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land((Israel)), and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.((Jordan))

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east((Persia)) and out of the north((Russia)) shall trouble him: therefore he((666)) shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

45 And he((666)) shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

 

During the tribulation the antichrist will put his base camp in Israel after destroying Syria and Egypt. When God puts a hook in the Jaw of Russia and draws it to Israel, the armies of the antichrist will already be there in Israel. The seat of the beast is in Israel during the wars of the tribulation.

I am in agreement with all of that, but that isn't really a refutation of what I said about America, that issue is collateral to that, and that was the only real issue I had. And the seat referred to in Israel would be the false prophet. I know it would be beast as it reads in Rev 13, but further in Rev 16-18 it shows the differences between the 4 characters: the dragon-Satan, the first beast from the sea-Roman Empire, the second beast arising from the earth-false prophet and then the image. The false prophet has the religious influence that "exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them that dwell therein to worship the first beast whose deadly wound was healed" Rev 13. It is this beast (false prophet Rev 13:11) that is referred to as a man in Rev 13:18.

[Eric Stahl]

I am in agreement with all of that, but that isn't really a refutation of what I said about America, that issue is collateral to that, and that was the only real issue I had. And the seat referred to in Israel would be the false prophet. I know it would be beast as it reads in Rev 13, but further in Rev 16-18 it shows the differences between the 4 characters: the dragon-Satan, the first beast from the sea-Roman Empire, the second beast arising from the earth-false prophet and then the image. The false prophet has the religious influence that "exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them that dwell therein to worship the first beast whose deadly wound was healed" Rev 13. It is this beast (false prophet Rev 13:11) that is referred to as a man in Rev 13:18.

 

 

Revelation 16:10-11 There will be darkness on the seat of the beast and his kingdom. His seat is in Israel Daniel 11:45.

 

Habakkuk 3:11-13 sun and moon will stand still over Israel and go from view before Armageddon.

 

Job 38:12–13, 15, 22–24 KJV

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the

dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

 

15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm

shall be broken.

22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

—Job 38:12–13, 15, 22–24 KJV

 

America will be on the dark side of the earth when the permanent solar eclipse forms over Israel. America is the kingdom of antichrist which is political Babylon.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Eric Stahl

[TexasGayla]

Thank you for this interesting discussion.  I especially liked the statement "Seeing that America has officially, basically rejected Israel, unless something very amazing happens to cause our government to again fully support Israel, I can't see America saving them."   Something very amazing actually did happen, didn't it?  Praise the Lord!