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Adamski

Hail Mary Prayer In The 1611 Kjv Bible ?

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He has been banned.


From Heaven; one would think so! Appeared he blasphemed the Holy Ghost............ Attributed the works of satan to the Holy Ghost. Yeah hath God said .... they work full time. Appeared the guy never slept.

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Saints are not the departed whom the Pope "saintifized" (I just made the word up :) ). 

All true believers in Christ are Saints. 

Since I will not teach this, would someone please show Mel from the Bible what I mean?

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Saints are not the departed whom the Pope "saintifized" (I just made the word up :) ). 

All true believers in Christ are Saints. 

Since I will not teach this, would someone please show Mel from the Bible what I mean?

I don't think Mel got past the previous answer to his question.

 

Mel, notice in the opening addresses to many of the epistles, they are addressed to the saints (who are living people). None of these saints are beatified by anyone...they were living. We're saints too without any church deifying us; Christ deified when we received him as Lord and Savior through his shed blood at Calvary. If you want to see something awe-striking look at Revelation 1:1-6 and pay close attention to verse 5.

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Yes, out of the angel's hand; not out of the hand of a man.

Is it theoretically possible for those in heaven, saints and angels, to be praying to Jesus on our behalf? Similar to if I ask you to pray for me. When I use the word "pray" I use it in the literal sense "to petition or ask" not in the worship sense. Since heaven is not bound by time or space when I read Revelation 8:4 I picture saints praying on our behalf (as well as worshipping God) because saints are more alive than we are.

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Is it theoretically possible for those in heaven, saints and angels, to be praying to Jesus on our behalf? Similar to if I ask you to pray for me. When I use the word "pray" I use it in the literal sense "to petition or ask" not in the worship sense. Since heaven is not bound by time or space when I read Revelation 8:4 I picture saints praying on our behalf (as well as worshipping God) because saints are more alive than we are.

No. Angels are created beings with assigned tasks from God. The departed dead have no special "powers" (for lack of a better term at the moment) to see us, to know what we are doing, to know who we are, to have any idea about our lives.

 

Scripture is very clear that followers of Christ on earth may pray for one another and we know the Holy Ghost helps in our prayers and that Christ intercedes for us. That's it.

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No. Angels are created beings with assigned tasks from God. The departed dead have no special "powers" (for lack of a better term at the moment) to see us, to know what we are doing, to know who we are, to have any idea about our lives.

 

Scripture is very clear that followers of Christ on earth may pray for one another and we know the Holy Ghost helps in our prayers and that Christ intercedes for us. That's it.

I see what you're saying. I'm just using deductive reasoning. For instance in Revelation 5:8, "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours (bowls of incense), which are the prayers of saints." The 24 elders are humans that are in heaven and they are holding these golden vials that are the prayers of saints. The word saint is typically used for humans that are in heaven, not on earth. In Revelation 8:3-4 it depicts angels doing the same thing, offering up the prayers of the saints before the Lamb of God. The only thing I'm aware of the Bible is against is if we attempted to conjure up dead people. That would be bad.

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I see what you're saying. I'm just using deductive reasoning. For instance in Revelation 5:8, "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours (bowls of incense), which are the prayers of saints." The 24 elders are humans that are in heaven and they are holding these golden vials that are the prayers of saints. The word saint is typically used for humans that are in heaven, not on earth. In Revelation 8:3-4 it depicts angels doing the same thing, offering up the prayers of the saints before the Lamb of God. The only thing I'm aware of the Bible is against is if we attempted to conjure up dead people. That would be bad.

Where do you get the idea the word saints refers most to those in heaven? If you read the Bible it's clear that anyone born again in Christ is a "saint" and believers on earth are often referred to as saints.

 

A saint is simply someone born again in Christ, not someone who has attained a special status or elevation granting them a special title.

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Asking any dead person to pray for you is just error. Yes, every scripture you use is evidence God asks those Christians who are ALIVE to pray for one another. Do you stop to think when you read these scriptures or just read the notes added by the Roman Church?

I would not have banned this person. If we used this opportunity wisely, we may have had an occasion to see God's word correct him; see him get saved and sharpen our own sword for future Romanist encounters.

Are saints in heaven considered dead or alive?

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Where do you get the idea the word saints refers most to those in heaven? If you read the Bible it's clear that anyone born again in Christ is a "saint" and believers on earth are often referred to as saints.

 

A saint is simply someone born again in Christ, not someone who has attained a special status or elevation granting them a special title.

That is very insightful. What verses mention saints on earth? I didn't mean they have any special power or status. Just that they are alive with (and in) Christ in heaven and if they are alive then they would want to pray for us in heaven just like they would on earth.

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Many of the epistles in the greetings and salutations mention "the saints at" and name a city where a church was established.

In one respect, what the saved in heaven do day to day is of little interest to us here and now. If they do talk to the Lord about us (and the Bible never mentions that as far as I know), then it is entirely of their own volition.
We are never told to seek out them to entreat the Lord on our behalf.
And since every saved person can "come boldly to the throne of Grace" we have no need to anyway.

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Psalms 106:16 They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the LORD.

 

1 Samuel 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

 

2 Chronicles 6:41 Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.

Philippians 4:21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.

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Psalms 16:3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.

 

Psalms 30:4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.

 

Psalms 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

 

Psalms 34:9 O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.

 

Psalms 85:8 I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly.

 

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

 

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

 

Acts 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

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Are saints in heaven considered dead or alive?

They are certaily alive, but are considered 'asleep' in Christ, meaning, they are unconscious of what is transpiring here, at least in a manner where they might have any power over what occurs. Their labors of this life are completed. Nothing in the Bible ever suggests we are to pray to, or speak to, any who have gone before us.

 

Consider Saul-his great final sin was to call up Samuel to speak to him, as the Lord had not answered him, having been rejected by the Lord-he had to go to a witch, a necromancer, to do this and break his own laws to do so. And in this case, the Lord allowed Saul to actually speak to Samuel and was only told that by the end of that day, both he and his son, Jonathan, would be dead.  Doesn't sound like an endorsement to ask those who have passed before us anything at all.

Edited by Ukulelemike

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They are certaily alive, but are considered 'asleep' in Christ, meaning, they are unconscious of what is transpiring here, at least in a manner where they might have any power over what occurs. Their labors of this life are completed. Nothing in the Bible ever suggests we are to pray to, or speak to, any who have gone before us.

 

Consider Saul-his great final sin was to call up Samuel to speak to him, as the Lord had not answered him, having been rejected by the Lord-he had to go to a witch, a necromancer, to do this and break his own laws to do so. And in this case, the Lord allowed Saul to actually speak to Samuel and was only told that by the end of that day, both he and his son, Jonathan, would be dead.  Doesn't sound like an endorsement to ask those who have passed before us anything at all.

When I read Revelation 5:8 it sounds like the saints in heaven are alive and awake. "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." These are people in heaven, the elders and the saints, receiving prayers and taking them to God.

 

It also happens again in Revelation 8:3-4 "And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." The angels are doing the same thing, receiving prayers from the saints (which are outside of time and space so they can hear multiple prayers from multiple people at one time) in heaven and taking them to God.

 

We see in Matthew 17:3 when Jesus is on the Mount of Transfiguration he is talking to Moses and Elijah who have been dead for a very long time. Jesus isn't against contacting those who have past on to heaven, He did it himself. What God is against as mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:10–11 is manipulation or conjuration of dead people. Saints are more alive than we are, if they were sleeping or un-conscious Jesus would not have been able to talk to Moses and Elijah. Granted they were in "Abraham's Bossom" at the time, still remains that they were awake and conscious, and carrying on a fascinating conversation I would imagine. You have Moses, the old Exodus, and Jesus the new Exodus.

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Is it theoretically possible for those in heaven, saints and angels, to be praying to Jesus on our behalf? Similar to if I ask you to pray for me. When I use the word "pray" I use it in the literal sense "to petition or ask" not in the worship sense. Since heaven is not bound by time or space when I read Revelation 8:4 I picture saints praying on our behalf (as well as worshipping God) because saints are more alive than we are.

 

The Bible does not tell us this happens. So if someone teaches that, they're not teaching Bible truths.

 

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

In order to pleas God we must abide & live by what is written in the Holy Bible. And as the verses states, we will be judge by what is written in the Holy Bible.

 

Now, with that said, the saved person has only one mediator between him & God, & that is Jesus Christ.

 

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

And the saved person is assured.

 

Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

 

That whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

 

We are never instructed to pray to, through, those who have died in Christ, we are not told they will be our mediators, only Jesus will mediate between the save person & God.

 

Stick to the Bible, not teachings of man. 

 

Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

​Here in this verse it clearly states, they were teaching to doctrines of men, for the doctrine of God, & God was not accepting their worship. Stay safe, stick to Bible teachings, & be sure you use verses in proper context as well.

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The Bible isn't totally clear what the saints are doing in heaven. One thing we know is that they are not receiving prayers.

 

When I read Revelation 5:8 it sounds like the saints in heaven are alive and awake. "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." These are people in heaven, the elders and the saints, receiving prayers and taking them to God.

 

It also happens again in Revelation 8:3-4 "And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." The angels are doing the same thing, receiving prayers from the saints (which are outside of time and space so they can hear multiple prayers from multiple people at one time) in heaven and taking them to God.

 

We see in Matthew 17:3 when Jesus is on the Mount of Transfiguration he is talking to Moses and Elijah who have been dead for a very long time. Jesus isn't against contacting those who have past on to heaven, He did it himself. What God is against as mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:10–11 is manipulation or conjuration of dead people. Saints are more alive than we are, if they were sleeping or un-conscious Jesus would not have been able to talk to Moses and Elijah. Granted they were in "Abraham's Bossom" at the time, still remains that they were awake and conscious, and carrying on a fascinating conversation I would imagine. You have Moses, the old Exodus, and Jesus the new Exodus.

 

Who are the 24 elders?

 

You are groping in darkness. The bible is not very clear here. So to build a doctrine upon this these passages is going to lead to one big heretical mess. 

 

By the way, these saints are future saints that are killed during the tribulation by the beast. They are NOT part of the church seeing the church will be raptured off this planet by this time. These are saints that have come through great tribulation who have lost their lives and whose souls are kept under the altar until the Second Coming of Christ. NT Christians are not shut up under some altar. We are already united with Christ and seated in heavenly places in him (Eph. 2:6). And when we die we go automatically into his presence (II. Cor. 5:8).

 

Also, nowhere does it say that the angel received the prayers other than by offering them up to the Lord. The Lord is the one who received the prayers.

 

If you want to pray to some nameless angel go right ahead. Just hope he's the right one. I'll bypass it all and go right to the Lord himself since I have full access to the throne of grace (Heb. 4:16).

 

This is just another reason why the doctrine of the rapture and right divisions is important.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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Adamski should read, A History of Christianity by Diarmaid MacCulloch. The book provides the historical explanation about how the Catholic Church decided that clergy needed to be unmarried and the reasons for the cult and followers of Virgin Mary. 

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As for what we read in Rev. 5, concerning the prayers being offered up to God, and really, in ALL of Revelation, what we have here is something unique to history-a great judgment is coming, the judgment of the entire world-not as the first in Genesis, but a final judgment. Who are the 24 elders? Lots of theories out there: I believe its possible they are either the 12 Apostles of the Lamb and the 12 Patriarchs of Israel, though again, not clear. Or, they may merely be representative of ALL Christians at ALL times, thus, bringing the prayers of the saints, of whom they represent, to the Lord. Since they are never spoken of anywhere but Revelation, their presence may be unique to this time, and this event.

 

In another passage in Revelation 8, we see an angel ofering the prayers of the saints to the lord with incensein a censer, which he then promptly casts down to earth, and immediately afterward, the seven trumpet judgments begin-I beleve this is representative of the prayers the saints have prayed for the lost of the world, which were rejected by the lost, and this is done as part of the reason the judgments are occurring: not only has esus died for the lost, who have thouroughly rejected Him, but the Christians on earth have continually prayed for their good and their salvation, yet they have been hated, killed and rejected also-thus, the prayers arehurled back at them at the beginning of judgment. Sort of like, "You didn't want their prayers for your good, then you have their prayers as your judgment"

 

Of course, feel free to disagree with me.

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The Bible does not tell us this happens. So if someone teaches that, they're not teaching Bible truths.

 

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

In order to pleas God we must abide & live by what is written in the Holy Bible. And as the verses states, we will be judge by what is written in the Holy Bible.

 

Now, with that said, the saved person has only one mediator between him & God, & that is Jesus Christ.

 

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

And the saved person is assured.

 

Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

 

That whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

 

We are never instructed to pray to, through, those who have died in Christ, we are not told they will be our mediators, only Jesus will mediate between the save person & God.

 

Stick to the Bible, not teachings of man. 

 

Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

​Here in this verse it clearly states, they were teaching to doctrines of men, for the doctrine of God, & God was not accepting their worship. Stay safe, stick to Bible teachings, & be sure you use verses in proper context as well.

How can you be sure that your interpretation of Revelation 8:4 is correct? I'm reading that passage in a literal sense and it says prayers of the saints. And you know it's referring to saints in heaven by reading the earlier chapter because John is taken up to heaven (his vision).

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As for what we read in Rev. 5, concerning the prayers being offered up to God, and really, in ALL of Revelation, what we have here is something unique to history-a great judgment is coming, the judgment of the entire world-not as the first in Genesis, but a final judgment. Who are the 24 elders? Lots of theories out there: I believe its possible they are either the 12 Apostles of the Lamb and the 12 Patriarchs of Israel, though again, not clear. Or, they may merely be representative of ALL Christians at ALL times, thus, bringing the prayers of the saints, of whom they represent, to the Lord. Since they are never spoken of anywhere but Revelation, their presence may be unique to this time, and this event.

 

In another passage in Revelation 8, we see an angel ofering the prayers of the saints to the lord with incensein a censer, which he then promptly casts down to earth, and immediately afterward, the seven trumpet judgments begin-I beleve this is representative of the prayers the saints have prayed for the lost of the world, which were rejected by the lost, and this is done as part of the reason the judgments are occurring: not only has esus died for the lost, who have thouroughly rejected Him, but the Christians on earth have continually prayed for their good and their salvation, yet they have been hated, killed and rejected also-thus, the prayers arehurled back at them at the beginning of judgment. Sort of like, "You didn't want their prayers for your good, then you have their prayers as your judgment"

 

Of course, feel free to disagree with me.

I agree with your theory on the 24 elders. Personally I think it would be a stretch to say that Revelation 8:4 hasn't taken place yet, that saints and angels aren't praying for us. Maybe I'm taking the passage too literal.

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The Bible isn't totally clear what the saints are doing in heaven. One thing we know is that they are not receiving prayers.

 

 

Who are the 24 elders?

 

You are groping in darkness. The bible is not very clear here. So to build a doctrine upon this these passages is going to lead to one big heretical mess. 

 

By the way, these saints are future saints that are killed during the tribulation by the beast. They are NOT part of the church seeing the church will be raptured off this planet by this time. These are saints that have come through great tribulation who have lost their lives and whose souls are kept under the altar until the Second Coming of Christ. NT Christians are not shut up under some altar. We are already united with Christ and seated in heavenly places in him (Eph. 2:6). And when we die we go automatically into his presence (II. Cor. 5:8).

 

Also, nowhere does it say that the angel received the prayers other than by offering them up to the Lord. The Lord is the one who received the prayers.

 

If you want to pray to some nameless angel go right ahead. Just hope he's the right one. I'll bypass it all and go right to the Lord himself since I have full access to the throne of grace (Heb. 4:16).

 

This is just another reason why the doctrine of the rapture and right divisions is important.

I have to disagree with you incorporating the rapture theory. The word rapture, tribulation, or anti-Christ is not found in Revelation. That is a doctrine of man not the Bible. To say these saints are future saints is also misleading because of the tense John uses in Revelation. It does not say the saints will be praying, future tense, it says the saints are praying, present tense. That is not a doctrine of man, that is literally what Revelation says.

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Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

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