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Pray For America And Israel?

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Invicta quotes and responds in red, "In this passage of Scripture, Jesus is speaking about the end times. He cautions the Jews to run for the mountains
when they see the abomination of desolation. Correction, He cautions the Christians to run for the mountains.
He tells them to not even go into their houses to get provisions or clothing. They are just to run. Why? Because the Roman armies were about to destroy Jerusalem.
The great tribulation is about to start. That means the Jews will flee near the middleof the tribulation period, which lasts a total of seven years. Oh! And how would that enable them to escape your 'great tribulation' ?"

Invicta, it says the ABOMINATION of desolation, not just desolation. The ABOMINATION is the antichrist declaring himself that he is God sitting in the temple in 2 Thess 2. Neither Nero, nor Titus ever sat in the temple and declared themselves to be God nor did any of the lying signs and wonders ever follow either of them.
And yes, he was talking to JEWS, and it wasn't Jews or even Christians if you will fleeing Jerusalem, he said let them which are in JUDEA, that encompasses the entire county not just the city. How could anyone escape Jerusalem when it was surrounded? This is why other signs were given throughout Matthew 24, Luke 21 because if the only sign was the surrounding of Jerusalem, then it was too late, nobody would have escaped, Titus locked down Jerusalem to be sure, and since none of the signs occurred in AD 70, or 7 years prior to it, this passage can NOT be a reference to Titus and therefore has not been fulfilled yet.

Furthermore, the "great tribulation" is what comes upon ALL THE WORLD (Rev 3:8-10) and Jesus made that clear in Luke 21:35 "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the WHOLE earth". That never happened, the events you described and of which occurred under Titus were limited to Jerusalem.

Moreover, during the great tribulation, even the kings, chief captains, rules are running and trying to hide from God (Rev 6:15-17). Now in another thread you said I was "mish mashing" Revelation, and that's because Revelation is where the "great tribulation" happens, Rev 2:22 and Rev 7:14. You state the great tribulation, of which there was none like it nor shall ever be, is fulfilled in AD 70, so then it should logically follow that if that were true, then all of the references in Revelation that describe the great tribulation would demand that the events from AD 66-70 would follow Revelations events, and they do not which explains why you avoid everything I laid out about what was not fulfilled.

And the question bro Eric asks about if you believe Revelation has been fulfilled is important because your theology puts you in a pickle on that question:
1) If you do believe it has been fulfilled, you have the dubious task of explaining all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments that have not come to pass,
2) If you do not believe it has been fulfilled, then there is a conflict with your theology in that you have to explain 2 great tribulations. There can only be one great tribulation of which were none like it nor shall ever be. If Matthew 24 was the great tribulation then Revelation 5-18 presents a conflict in your theology.

Furthermore, if just one passage can be shown in Matthew 24, Luke 21 that has not been fulfilled, if you claim all of it has been fulfilled in AD 70, according to Deut ch 18 you make Jesus out to be a false prophet.

Edited by DrJamesA

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Invicta quotes and responds in red, "In this passage of Scripture, Jesus is speaking about the end times. He cautions the Jews to run for the mountains
when they see the abomination of desolation. Correction, He cautions the Christians to run for the mountains.
He tells them to not even go into their houses to get provisions or clothing. They are just to run. Why? Because the Roman armies were about to destroy Jerusalem.
The great tribulation is about to start. That means the Jews will flee near the middleof the tribulation period, which lasts a total of seven years. Oh! And how would that enable them to escape your 'great tribulation' ?"

Invicta, it says the ABOMINATION of desolation, not just desolation. The ABOMINATION is the antichrist declaring himself that he is God sitting in the temple in 2 Thess 2. Neither Nero, nor Titus ever sat in the temple and declared themselves to be God nor did any of the lying signs and wonders ever follow either of them.
And yes, he was talking to JEWS, and it wasn't Jews or even Christians if you will fleeing Jerusalem, he said let them which are in JUDEA, that encompasses the entire county not just the city. How could anyone escape Jerusalem when it was surrounded? This is why other signs were given throughout Matthew 24, Luke 21 because if the only sign was the surrounding of Jerusalem, then it was too late, nobody would have escaped, Titus locked down Jerusalem to be sure, and since none of the signs occurred in AD 70, or 7 years prior to it, this passage can NOT be a reference to Titus and therefore has not been fulfilled yet.

Furthermore, the "great tribulation" is what comes upon ALL THE WORLD (Rev 3:8-10) and Jesus made that clear in Luke 21:35 "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the WHOLE earth". That never happened, the events you described and of which occurred under Titus were limited to Jerusalem.

Moreover, during the great tribulation, even the kings, chief captains, rules are running and trying to hide from God (Rev 6:15-17). Now in another thread you said I was "mish mashing" Revelation, and that's because Revelation is where the "great tribulation" happens, Rev 2:22 and Rev 7:14. You state the great tribulation, of which there was none like it nor shall ever be, is fulfilled in AD 70, so then it should logically follow that if that were true, then all of the references in Revelation that describe the great tribulation would demand that the events from AD 66-70 would follow Revelations events, and they do not which explains why you avoid everything I laid out about what was not fulfilled.

And the question bro Eric asks about if you believe Revelation has been fulfilled is important because your theology puts you in a pickle on that question:
1) If you do believe it has been fulfilled, you have the dubious task of explaining all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments that have not come to pass,
2) If you do not believe it has been fulfilled, then there is a conflict with your theology in that you have to explain 2 great tribulations. There can only be one great tribulation of which were none like it nor shall ever be. If Matthew 24 was the great tribulation then Revelation 5-18 presents a conflict in your theology.

Furthermore, if just one passage can be shown in Matthew 24, Luke 21 that has not been fulfilled, if you claim all of it has been fulfilled in AD 70, according to Deut ch 18 you make Jesus out to be a false prophet.


Titus stopped the siege of Jerusalem after 5 months too go back to Rome and settle some political situations. He came back to finish the siege but the Christians who had been warned to flee did flee. Edited by Eric Stahl

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Invicta,

Do you believe the book of Revelation has been fullfiled?


I am not a preterist. I believe that the book of Revelation is a history of The Church written in advance in symbolic or signified form, Rev1;1. Signified, means to show by signs. This is what the church has always believed and it has sustained the saints and martyrs through the ages in her tribulations under the papal antichrist..

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Invicta quotes and responds in red, "In this passage of Scripture, Jesus is speaking about the end times. He cautions the Jews to run for the mountains
when they see the abomination of desolation. Correction, He cautions the Christians to run for the mountains.
He tells them to not even go into their houses to get provisions or clothing. They are just to run. Why? Because the Roman armies were about to destroy Jerusalem.
The great tribulation is about to start. That means the Jews will flee near the middleof the tribulation period, which lasts a total of seven years. Oh! And how would that enable them to escape your 'great tribulation' ?"

Invicta, it says the ABOMINATION of desolation, not just desolation. The ABOMINATION is the antichrist declaring himself that he is God sitting in the temple in 2 Thess 2. Neither Nero, nor Titus ever sat in the temple and declared themselves to be God nor did any of the lying signs and wonders ever follow either of them. Again, you are muddling scriptures, the ABOMINATION of desolation, is the same that Luke descibes as the armies surounding Jerusalem, Dan 11:31 plainly shows that it is the Roman armies who would place the ABOMINATION of desolation. The ships of Chittim were the Roman ships carrying the Roman armies to oppose Antiochus.
And yes, he was talking to JEWS, and it wasn't Jews or even Christians if you will fleeing Jerusalem, he said let them which are in JUDEA, that encompasses the entire county not just the city. How could anyone escape Jerusalem when it was surrounded? When the siege was lifted, of course This is why other signs were given throughout Matthew 24, Luke 21 because if the only sign was the surrounding of Jerusalem, then it was too late, nobody would have escaped, Titus locked down Jerusalem to be sure,Titus stood down his troops for three days, to pay their wages and to allow the occupants to leave and the seditious to surrender and since none of the signs occurred in AD 70, or 7 years prior to it, this passage can NOT be a reference to Titus and therefore has not been fulfilled yet. Why do you keep sayying none of this is fulfiied when you show that you are completely ignorant of history.

John 3:10 Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


Furthermore, the "great tribulation" is what comes upon ALL THE WORLD (Rev 3:8-10) and Jesus made that clear in Luke 21:35 "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the WHOLE earth". That never happened, the events you described and of which occurred under Titus were limited to Jerusalem.

Moreover, during the great tribulation, even the kings, chief captains, rules are running and trying to hide from God (Rev 6:15-17). Now in another thread you said I was "mish mashing" Revelation, and that's because Revelation is where the "great tribulation" happens, Rev 2:22 and Rev 7:14. You state the great tribulation, of which there was none like it nor shall ever be, is fulfilled in AD 70, so then it should logically follow that if that were true, then all of the references in Revelation that describe the great tribulation would demand that the events from AD 66-70 would follow Revelations events, and they do not which explains why you avoid everything I laid out about what was not fulfilled.

And the question bro Eric asks about if you believe Revelation has been fulfilled is important because your theology puts you in a pickle on that question:
1) If you do believe it has been fulfilled, you have the dubious task of explaining all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments that have not come to pass,
2) If you do not believe it has been fulfilled, then there is a conflict with your theology in that you have to explain 2 great tribulations. There can only be one great tribulation of which were none like it nor shall ever be. If Matthew 24 was the great tribulation then Revelation 5-18 presents a conflict in your theology.

Furthermore, if just one passage can be shown in Matthew 24, Luke 21 that has not been fulfilled, if you claim all of it has been fulfilled in AD 70, according to Deut ch 18 you make Jesus out to be a false prophet.


I have not said that nothing is left unfulfilled. 2 questions were asked. The answers to the first were fulfilled the second to be fulfilled.
Matt 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

If you don't believe the above scriptures, you make Him to be a liar. It is not a question of IF they were fulfilled, it is HOW. Edited by Invicta

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I am not a preterist. I believe that the book of Revelation is a history of The Church written in advance in symbolic or signified form, Rev1;1. Signified, means to show by signs. This is what the church has always believed and it has sustained the saints and martyrs through the ages in her tribulations under the papal antichrist..


I believe the church is not going through the wrath.

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
—1 Thessalonians 5:1–11 KJV

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I am not a preterist. I believe that the book of Revelation is a history of The Church written in advance in symbolic or signified form, Rev1;1. Signified, means to show by signs. This is what the church has always believed and it has sustained the saints and martyrs through the ages in her tribulations under the papal antichrist..


You seem to put a lot of store on the word signified, and that it applied to the whole book of revelation.

If you look at the word used, while it can mean to show by signs, it can also mean simply to make known - to tell.

Now since some of the things are quite obviously literal, it makes it a difficult case to put so much weight on the meaning of a single word that is by no means certain.
You have referenced this word in this way in several threads, but I really think you need to find more support than this one verse.

I make no comment on the rest of this thread.

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I believe the church is not going through the wrath.


How could anyone even suggest that she would??

You must make a distinction between "wrath" & "tribulation."

Wrath is the punishment of God inflicted on sinners - ultimately in hell.
9
For God hath n
ot
appoi
nt
ed us to wrath, but to
ob
tain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.


Tribulation is suffering & Christians experience it at the hands of sinners, while sinners experience it as a precursor to the wrath of God.
These things I have spoken u
nt
o you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgme
nt
of God, that ye may be cou
nt
ed worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

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You seem to put a lot of store on the word signified, and that it applied to the whole book of revelation.

If you look at the word used, while it can mean to show by signs, it can also mean simply to make known - to tell.

Signs & symbols have reference to REAL things, people & events. They may be more or less cryptic, with the key to the meaning given in the text.

Now since some of the things are quite obviously literal, it makes it a difficult case to put so much weight on the meaning of a single word that is by no means certain.
You have referenced this word in this way in several threads, but I really think you need to find more support than this one verse.

The fact that there ARE many cryptic signs, & disagreement as to whether they should be given a literal reading of some distant future fulfilment where the church is absent, or a sign of real events relevant to Israel & the church from the time of writing onwards, is a matter for careful Bible study.

I make no comment on the rest of this thread.

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Personally, I find that the best way to read the Bible is to assume it is meant literally, unless it specifically says it is a picture or symbol.

Things like the phrase "was like unto" would indicate a picture for instance.

The easiest, most natural reading of the word "signify" in that verse is "to tell or inform" not "to tell in symbols".
And I have no problem with the events mentioned being literal, as they are written.
I read that there will be 24 men around the throne in heaven, I think there will be 24 men there.
I have studied the book of Revelation, and although I have much still to learn from it, I do know that it can be easily read and understood without great rafts of symbolism, and in fact those places which are symbolised are made obvious by the phrasing.

But maybe this simple preacher needs to look at books other than the Bible to understand what is meant. Maybe the simple reading of God's Word is not enough?
Maybe I need to learn to view through the eyes of the scholar?
I am afraid I read, and tend to believe what it actually says - but I am a simple man.

Edited by DaveW

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How could anyone even suggest that she would??

You must make a distinction between "wrath" & "tribulation."

Wrath is the punishment of God inflicted on sinners - ultimately in hell.
9
For God hath n
ot
appoi
nt
ed us to wrath, but to
ob
tain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.


Tribulation is suffering & Christians experience it at the hands of sinners, while sinners experience it as a precursor to the wrath of God.
These things I have spoken u
nt
o you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgme
nt
of God, that ye may be cou
nt
ed worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;



Covenanter,

Paul used the word wrath to describe the judgment coming in the day of the Lord or great tribulation spoken of in verse 2. He was telling the church that they were not the children of darkness that would be surprised by the day of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:1–11 KJV
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The church will be called up in the air by Jesus as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 before the day of the Lord's judgment.

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The easiest, most natural reading of the word "signify" in that verse is "to tell or inform" not "to tell in symbols".



Signify means to show by signs. As I have already said, when you sign a document or even a cheque, you are not (necessarily) writing your name, it could be your initials, your "mark" usually an 'X' but it could be anything, even a picture of your house, a stamp of a signet ring, or anything you with to be your sign or symbol.

We can understand some prophecies by the sign or symbol interpreted in another scripture. Take for instance in Revelation 17 we have the beast with seven heads and ten horns. This is plainly identified for us in the interpretation given by the Angel.

7 ¶ And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Read carefully because this is important for understanding this and other scriptures.

9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
This is the first indication that it refers to Rome, The City Of The Seven Hils." Even Rome recognizes that she is the city intended, but that it refers back to Heathen Rome.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, That fixes the time John wrote as during the reign of the 6th king(dom) and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Rome was conquered by 10 Gothic kings who the pope conned into getting them to give him power by claiming that Constantine left power to the papacy when he removed the empire east. To give credence, he produced forged documents to support his claim. One was 'The Donation of Constantine' others were known as 'The decretals of Peter.'
14 ¶ These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. The Gothic kings and their descendents made war on Christ and His witnesses in a war of extermination for centuries. Matt. 25: 40 Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Rev 17: 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. This is another identification with Rome, as she was the city 'which reigneth over the kings of the earth' in John's day. It also shows that earth does not always mean "the entire world" but in this case, The Roman Empire Earth. The papacy also did in his heyday.

The Ten horns identify the similar beast in Dan 7: 7, 24.

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The church will be called up in the air by Jesus as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 before the day of the Lord's judgment.


We will meet the Lord in the air and return with him at the last day, the day of Judgment (the same day)


Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

The above verses show that we will rise on the Last Day.
The next verse shows that the last day is also the Day of Judgment.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

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G4591

Original: σημαίνω
Transliteration: sēmainō
Phonetic: say-mah'-ee-no

Thayer Definition:

1. to give a sign, to signify, indicate
2. to make known

Origin: from sema (a mark, of uncertain derivation)
TDNT entry: 11:22,1
Part(s) of speech: Verb
Strong's Definition: From σ μα sēma (a mark ; of uncertain derivation); to indicate: - signify.

It CAN, but doesn't always mean by signs.
In fact Strong, as listed here prefers to use only "to indicate", while Thayer allows both meanings as possibilities. When I read the book, I have no problem believing that the things mentioned are literal. It makes sense that way.

But you hold slavishly to that one meaning by all means - it does after all suit the way you wish to read it.

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G4591

Original: σημaίνω
Transliteration: sēmainō
Phonetic: say-mah'-ee-no

Thayer Definition:

1. to give a sign, to signify, indicate
2. to make known

Origin: from sema (a mark, of uncertain derivation)
TDNT entry: 11:22,1
Part(s) of speech: Verb
Strong's Definition: From σ μa sēma (a mark ; of uncertain derivation); to indicate: - signify.

It CAN, but doesn't always mean by signs.
In fact Strong, as listed here prefers to use only "to indicate", while Thayer allows both meanings as possibilities. When I read the book, I have no problem believing that the things mentioned are literal. It makes sense that way.

But you hold slavishly to that one meaning by all means - it does after all suit the way you wish to read it.


I could say you try to hide the plain meaning to suit the way you wish to read it.
John 12:27 ¶ Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The sign was that he would be lifted up, and see:


John 18:31 Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

And speaking to Peter, he said

John 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.


And in Hebrews, Paul says:

Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 ¶ The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Here you have another word to show the meaning, a figure. So we can say the visions in the book of Revelation are figures, or symbols. Edited by Invicta

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The of my post is that there are two possible meanings of that word.
In such cases the context indicates which meaning should be understood.
In the Hebrews passage you mention the context indicates that this is a figure where it use that separate word to confirm which meaning is implied.
The revelation passage does not carry that same context. In fact the events included, while sometimes a little strange can be easily understood to be literal events - when read plainly it actually makes more sense to understand them literally.
And how is it that my acknowledging of BOTH possible meanings is wrong, but your denial of the meaning that you don't like is fine?

I was always taught that if the obvious sense makes good sense, then seek no other sense.
Well the obvious reading of Revelation is that these are real events that will (or have) really happened, not that they are some kind of veiled descriptions that are explained by vaguely similar, but less intense events.

I am a simple man, but the Bible was written for simple men to understand.
It is not that hard.

Edited by DaveW

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Well the obvious reading of Revelation is that these are real events that will (or have) really happened, not that they are some kind of veiled descriptions that are explained by vaguely similar, but less intense events.



I agree. They are real events that have taken place or will take place but figured in the way the are presented. I know a pastor who follows Hendriksen and believes they are real events but only in broad outline, if I understand the teaching correctly Ian will no doubt correct me if I am wrong because I believe he knows more about that teaching than I do.

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Personally, I find that the best way to read the Bible is to assume it is meant literally, unless it specifically says it is a picture or symbol.

Things like the phrase "was like unto" would indicate a picture for instance.

The easiest, most natural reading of the word "signify" in that verse is "to tell or inform" not "to tell in symbols".
And I have no problem with the events mentioned being literal, as they are written.
I read that there will be 24 men around the throne in heaven, I think there will be 24 men there.
I have studied the book of Revelation, and although I have much still to learn from it, I do know that it can be easily read and understood without great rafts of symbolism, and in fact those places which are symbolised are made obvious by the phrasing.

But maybe this simple preacher needs to look at books other than the Bible to understand what is meant. Maybe the simple reading of God's Word is not enough?
Maybe I need to learn to view through the eyes of the scholar?
I am afraid I read, and tend to believe what it actually says - but I am a simple man.


I agree. And I feel many of those who try to get us to accept the Bible as not being literally, are trying to get us to say the Bible cannot be trusted. Context is everything.

A man at our church brought this up last Sunday morning. I stated the Bible is the literal truth, & we should accept it literally. And we have to see what the context is, & never literally separate a verse by it self to build a doctrine.

If we separate verses, & built doctrine on one verse, think what we could do with this one.

1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

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G4591

Original: σημaίνω
Transliteration: sēmainō
Phonetic: say-mah'-ee-no

Thayer Definition:

1. to give a sign, to signify, indicate
2. to make known

Origin: from sema (a mark, of uncertain derivation)
TDNT entry: 11:22,1
Part(s) of speech: Verb
Strong's Definition: From σ μa sēma (a mark ; of uncertain derivation); to indicate: - signify.

It CAN, but doesn't always mean by signs.
In fact Strong, as listed here prefers to use only "to indicate", while Thayer allows both meanings as possibilities. When I read the book, I have no problem believing that the things mentioned are literal. It makes sense that way.

But you hold slavishly to that one meaning by all means - it does after all suit the way you wish to read it.


Amen!

I've made this comment before, some go to the Bible to prove what they believe, them there's those that go to the Bible to see what God tells them to believe.

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Amen!

I've made this comment before, some go to the Bible to prove what they believe, them there's those that go to the Bible to see what God tells them to believe.


And some to prove what someone else says they should believe.

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G4591

Original: σημaίνω
Transliteration: sēmainō
Phonetic: say-mah'-ee-no

Thayer Definition:

1. to give a sign, to signify, indicate
2. to make known

Origin: from sema (a mark, of uncertain derivation)
TDNT entry: 11:22,1
Part(s) of speech: Verb
Strong's Definition: From σ μa sēma (a mark ; of uncertain derivation); to indicate: - signify.

It CAN, but doesn't always mean by signs.
In fact Strong, as listed here prefers to use only "to indicate", while Thayer allows both meanings as possibilities. When I read the book, I have no problem believing that the things mentioned are literal. It makes sense that way.

But you hold slavishly to that one meaning by all means - it does after all suit the way you wish to read it.


OK. Here is a question for you,




Rev. 3:3 ¶ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Who are the witnesses, and how can they also be olive trees and candlesticks?

How do you read that literally?

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I agree. And I feel many of those who try to get us to accept the Bible as not being literally, are trying to get us to say the Bible cannot be trusted. Context is everything.

A man at our church brought this up last Sunday morning. I stated the Bible is the literal truth, & we should accept it literally. And we have to see what the context is, & never literally separate a verse by it self to build a doctrine.

If we separate verses, & built doctrine on one verse, think what we could do with this one.

1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?


But you don't take it literally do you?

You read Antichrist into Dan 9 when he is not mentioned. You say that that most events in the Olivet Prophecy and Matt 23, have not happened yet even though Jesus said they would be fulfilled during that generation. You don't trust the word of the Lord, so invent other meanings for "this generation".

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But you don't take it literally do you?

You read Antichrist into Dan 9 when he is not mentioned. You say that that most events in the Olivet Prophecy and Matt 23, have not happened yet even though Jesus said they would be fulfilled during that generation. You don't trust the word of the Lord, so invent other meanings for "this generation".


Read my post again, I have already answered your question.

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OK. Here is a question for you,




Rev. 3:3 ¶ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Who are the witnesses, and how can they also be olive trees and candlesticks?

How do you read that literally?


I read that there will be two literal witnesses who will prophesy - (not necessarily telling of the future, but in telling forth the words of God - for 1260 literal days.

The context tells us quite clearly that they are like olive trees and they are like candlesticks.
When imagery is used in the Bible it is quite plain. Thanks for pointing out fact that imagery is obvious when it is used.
Which is what I have been saying, and Rev 1:1's use of the word signify is not an obvious indicator of symbology, as the passage you reference here is.
Go looking for the olive trees elsewhere to figure out how these men are like olive trees or candlesticks.

It really is not hard when the Bible makes it so plain.

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Revelation 11:3 by the way, not 3:3.
By the way, a quick search tells me that Zec 4 explains exactly who they are - not by name, but by job - they are channels through which the oil that feeds the light to the world comes.

The imagery, which is obvious in Revelation as imagery in this case, is clearly that these two preach the light of the Gospel during that time.

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