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Pray For America And Israel?

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If you were predestined you would have been saved whether you liked it or not.

There is no sitting down with someone like the man behind the username of Invicta (as well as Covenator). He is set in his mind in what he believes. My job is to point out his ridiculous teaching of Replacement Theology that has led to the slaughter of millions of Jews throughout history. Again. let him explain who the 144,000 are. It should be a blast.

I agree when we encounter a teaching we believe to be wrong we should confront the teaching but doing so in the right manner is needful. Many people visit this forum and when they see Christians talking down to one another, sounding like liberal protestors in their use of derogatory and mocking words, this turns them away. There have been a few here recently who have left OB because of such.

We can disagree, we can biblically argue our points, we can biblically show the error of false views, we can biblically discuss areas in question, we can do this in love, kindness, gentleness, our words seasoned with salt, with the goal of edification for those who read our posts and even the hope that the one we are addressing may benefit as well.

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No. Not a "blast" but a study of Scripture.

The Lord in his warnings to the Jewish leaders & his Olivet prophecy (Mat. 21 - 24:34) makes it clear that the generation that rejected its Messiah will suffer judgment at the destruction of temple & city. A judgment that took place in AD 70. That destruction brought to an absolute end the Old Covenant with all its ritual & outward manifestations. The NC in the blood of Jesus now is established without a rival OC. See Hebrews. The OC with its circumcision effectively ended with the cross, but the Jews who rejected their Messiah were declared to be "uncircumcised" by Stephen. At much the same time, Peter was guided to open the Gospel to Gentiles without them being circumcised. Paul wrote to a largely Gentile church:
we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.


Nevertheless, there were many thousands of Jews who did believe who continued in the city despite the persecution by the unbelieving Jews. These were led by James, who presided over the Jerusalem conference, & confirmed the welcome into the church of uncircumcised Gentiles.

Rev. 1 does not need "interpreting" but reading in its natural meaning - written before the destruction of the temple & city, that destruction being seen in Rev. 11. The events were in the very near future to John (companion in tribulation) & his first readers:



The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave u
nt
o him, to shew u
nt
o his serva
nt
s things which must shortly come to pass; and he se
nt
and signified it by his angel u
nt
o his serva
nt
John:

2
Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.



The Olivet prophecy is repeated in v. 7 - those who pierced their Messiah will at last "see him" when they see his prophecies against them are fulfilled. The "piercing" defines the "kindreds of the earth" as the tribes of the land of Israel. Note that "he cometh with clouds" is an allusion to Daniel 7, Mat. 24 & Mat. 26 when Jesus was condemned for blasphemy.

13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancie
nt
of days, and they brought him near before him.

14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall n
ot
pass away, and his kingdom that which shall n
ot
be destroyed.


63
But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said u
nt
o him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64
Jesus saith u
nt
o him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say u
nt
o you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.



That sets the scene for Rev. 7, which is analogous to Ez. 9, where the faithful are marked for their protection before the destruction of the wicked, & the destruction of the city & temple by the Babylonians.

Jesus in his Olivet prophecy gave the warning signs whereby the Christians would know when to flee the doomed city. Only when they had escaped, would the judgment fall. A perfect, symbolic number of Jewish believers:

Hurt n
ot
the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the serva
nt
s of our God in their foreheads.

These believing Jews are "firstfruits" of the Gospel. They believed Jesus, & fled the city when they saw Jerusalem "compassed with armies." Their deliverance is analogous to that of Lot, leaving Sodom before its destruction.

As for persecution of Jews down the ages, that has no place in Christian thinking. God is judge, & he judged the generation that rejected its Messiah. The curse is cancelled by the Gospel, which welcomes sinners, & calls them to become the people of God regardless of ethnicity.

God graciously gave the rebellious Jews 40 years to repent. They did not learn from the Ninevites. The destruction fell on that generation.

"Covenanter" is Ian Day.

"Invicta" I have met - he lives nearly 100 miles away, the other side of London. He adopts the "historical" understanding of Revelation rather than my "preterist" understanding.



Sounds as logical as my guess that they live in a West Bank village.

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Many people visit this forum and when they see Christians talking down to one another, sounding like liberal protestors in their use of derogatory and mocking words, this turns them away. There have been a few here recently who have left OB because of such.


Romans 14
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 [it is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

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Romans 14
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 [it is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.


“Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.” Ephesians 4:29

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Isn't the ark under Calvary? Didn't Christ's blood run down through cracks and onto the table of shewbread?


I'm talking about the literal ark. If the Antichrist is going to confirm the covenant then the ark will need to be found.

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No. Not a "blast" but a study of Scripture.

The Lord in his warnings to the Jewish leaders & his Olivet prophecy (Mat. 21 - 24:34) makes it clear that the generation that rejected its Messiah will suffer judgment at the destruction of temple & city. A judgment that took place in AD 70. That destruction brought to an absolute end the Old Covenant with all its ritual & outward manifestations. The NC in the blood of Jesus now is established without a rival OC. See Hebrews. The OC with its circumcision effectively ended with the cross, but the Jews who rejected their Messiah were declared to be "uncircumcised" by Stephen. At much the same time, Peter was guided to open the Gospel to Gentiles without them being circumcised. Paul wrote to a largely Gentile church:
we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.


Nevertheless, there were many thousands of Jews who did believe who continued in the city despite the persecution by the unbelieving Jews. These were led by James, who presided over the Jerusalem conference, & confirmed the welcome into the church of uncircumcised Gentiles.

Rev. 1 does not need "interpreting" but reading in its natural meaning - written before the destruction of the temple & city, that destruction being seen in Rev. 11. The events were in the very near future to John (companion in tribulation) & his first readers:



The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave u
nt
o him, to shew u
nt
o his serva
nt
s things which must shortly come to pass; and he se
nt
and signified it by his angel u
nt
o his serva
nt
John:

2
Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.



The Olivet prophecy is repeated in v. 7 - those who pierced their Messiah will at last "see him" when they see his prophecies against them are fulfilled. The "piercing" defines the "kindreds of the earth" as the tribes of the land of Israel. Note that "he cometh with clouds" is an allusion to Daniel 7, Mat. 24 & Mat. 26 when Jesus was condemned for blasphemy.

13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancie
nt
of days, and they brought him near before him.

14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall n
ot
pass away, and his kingdom that which shall n
ot
be destroyed.


63
But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said u
nt
o him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64
Jesus saith u
nt
o him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say u
nt
o you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.



That sets the scene for Rev. 7, which is analogous to Ez. 9, where the faithful are marked for their protection before the destruction of the wicked, & the destruction of the city & temple by the Babylonians.

Jesus in his Olivet prophecy gave the warning signs whereby the Christians would know when to flee the doomed city. Only when they had escaped, would the judgment fall. A perfect, symbolic number of Jewish believers:

Hurt n
ot
the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the serva
nt
s of our God in their foreheads.

These believing Jews are "firstfruits" of the Gospel. They believed Jesus, & fled the city when they saw Jerusalem "compassed with armies." Their deliverance is analogous to that of Lot, leaving Sodom before its destruction.

As for persecution of Jews down the ages, that has no place in Christian thinking. God is judge, & he judged the generation that rejected its Messiah. The curse is cancelled by the Gospel, which welcomes sinners, & calls them to become the people of God regardless of ethnicity.

God graciously gave the rebellious Jews 40 years to repent. They did not learn from the Ninevites. The destruction fell on that generation.

"Covenanter" is Ian Day.

"Invicta" I have met - he lives nearly 100 miles away, the other side of London. He adopts the "historical" understanding of Revelation rather than my "preterist" understanding.




And yet you still haven't explained who the 144,000 are.

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“Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.” Ephesians 4:29


How is what I'm saying "corrupt communication"? The problem with you John is you want to treat heresies with kid gloves. Every time these issues come up you run to the defense of the "preterists" and "historicists". How is that edifying?

Romans 11

[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Edited by Wilchbla

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It's just amazing that so many born again Christians can have such differing views on the same things. That includes the other matters you mentioned as well.


Excuse me John, But many are professors only, & not born again, so really, its not amazing that there's so many different interpretation of the Scriptures. Being as few will enter the narrow strait gate, & many will enter the broad wide gate, that manes there will be many false teachers of the Scriptures.

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I agree when we encounter a teaching we believe to be wrong we should confront the teaching but doing so in the right manner is needful. Many people visit this forum and when they see Christians talking down to one another, sounding like liberal protestors in their use of derogatory and mocking words, this turns them away. There have been a few here recently who have left OB because of such.

We can disagree, we can biblically argue our points, we can biblically show the error of false views, we can biblically discuss areas in question, we can do this in love, kindness, gentleness, our words seasoned with salt, with the goal of edification for those who read our posts and even the hope that the one we are addressing may benefit as well.


What did I say that was so unkind? Peter said these kind of people "wrest" the scripture (he said this in the context of prophecy too) and I said he was going to "mangle" the scripture (which he does do). How is what I said anything worse?

You will always have thin-skinned Christians who will get offended at any discussion deeper than the church supper or Patch the Pirate. These are the same people who will say that Muslims are peace loving people and we should never say anything against their religion.

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This is why it's so difficult for people with differing views to actually attempt to sit down, discuss the details and try to come to the biblical viewpoint. On all sides the most common aspect is to attack those who differ, to belittle them, mock them, attack them. There can be no discussion in such an environment and such an approach is unedifying.

Had I held such an attitude earlier in my life I may never have been born again as what I was taught with regards to salvation was different from what Scripture teaches.

Had I held such an attitude with regards to baptism I may never have had my biblical understanding of baptism deepened, rooted and grounded.


True, Most of the time around here some seem to think if you disagree with them, tell them they're wrong, that's an attack, it isn't. Yet they attack the one that disagrees with them, & or do what they can to insult them. Them one or two will agree with the one making the attack or doing the insulting, thus seeming to try & create even more flame.

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Psalms 122:1 A Song of degrees of David. I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.
Psalms 122:2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.
Psalms 122:3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
Psalms 122:4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD.
Psalms 122:5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
Psalms 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalms 122:7 Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.
Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.
Psalms 122:9 Because of the house of the LORD our God I will seek thy good.


Thanks for posting that, I tried to find that verse earlier to post under this topic.

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And yet you still haven't explained who the 144,000 are.



That sets the scene for Rev. 7, which is analogous to Ez. 9, where the faithful are marked for their protection before the destruction of the wicked, & the destruction of the city & temple by the Babylonians.

Jesus in his Olivet prophecy gave the warning signs whereby the Christians would know when to flee the doomed city. Only when they had escaped, would the judgment fall. A perfect, symbolic number of Jewish believers:

Hurt n
ot
the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the serva
nt
s of our God in their foreheads.

These believing Jews are "firstfruits" of the Gospel. They believed Jesus, & fled the city when they saw Jerusalem "compassed with armies." Their deliverance is analogous to that of Lot, leaving Sodom before its destruction.


The 144,000 are the Christian Jews who were protected, sealed by the Holy Spirit, & who fled the city before its destruction.

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The 144,000 are the Christian Jews who were protected, sealed by the Holy Spirit, & who fled the city before its destruction.


:lol: Are you serious? Then they were raptured up into heaven along with the two witnesses, right? Or did they flee to England and become the royal family? Edited by Wilchbla

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:lol: Are you serious? Then they were raptured up into heaven along with the two witnesses, right? Or did they flee to England and become the royal family?

I do not understand your "logic." I have carefully explained from Scripture who the 144,000 were. Try refuting that explanation from Scripture.

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I'm talking about the literal ark. If the Antichrist is going to confirm the covenant then the ark will need to be found.


Noah' Ark? It's in Turkey in the Ararat Mountains. The upper part of the hull has moved a couple of miles down a slope but it's still there, bolts and all according to some. Hovind mentioned someone in Oklahoma or thereabouts having pieces of it on display in their converted gas station.

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The 144,000 are the Christian Jews who were protected, sealed by the Holy Spirit, & who fled the city before its destruction.


I don't think you can call them Christians. They will be Jewish virgin men from the 12 tribes from today's nation of Israel chosen after the rapture. Revelation of Jesus Christ chapters 7 and 14.

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How is what I'm saying "corrupt communication"? The problem with you John is you want to treat heresies with kid gloves. Every time these issues come up you run to the defense of the "preterists" and "historicists". How is that edifying?

Romans 11

[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

You mock and denigrate rather than put forth biblical reasons for your positions.

I've not defended any position, only brought forth the manner of discussion. It shouldn't matter what the topic is, as brothers/sisters in Christ we should be able to discuss them in a kind and respectful manner. Our discussions should be carried on in the Spirit, not in the flesh.

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If you were predestined you would have been saved whether you liked it or not.

There is no sitting down with someone like the man behind the username of Invicta (as well as Covenator). He is set in his mind in what he believes. My job is to point out his ridiculous teaching of Replacement Theology that has led to the slaughter of millions of Jews throughout history. Again. let him explain who the 144,000 are. It should be a blast.


I do not believe replacement theology. I believe what the bible teaches and that is we are grafted into Israel and when the fulness of the gentiles has come in, the Jews will be grafted back in.

John is quite correct. As far as prophecy is concerned, people believe what they have always been taught in their church, and are not likely to change their view, whatever it is, unless, of couse they act like the Bereans and look into these things. As I have said before, I was brought up in the Brethren who were the inventors of the dispensational theory, so was taught that. However I looked into that theory myself and found it wanting. No one outside the Roman Church taught such a theory before 1800. As I have said before, the first to get it from Rome was Samuel Maitland, librarian to the archbishop of Canterbury, then Edward Irving, the early charismatic/pentecostal, who taught it from about 1829, or before. From his prophetic conferencies, at Albury, Lady Powersourt took it to Ireland, and held similar conferences in Ireland which Irving and J N Darby attended. It is possible that Darby,later known as the father of dispensationalism, received the teaching there. Darby was an Irish High Church minister. High church, or ritualist are now known as Anglo Catholic. B W Newton, one of Darby's early associates, wrote that he thought Darby had been sent, by the Romanists, to spy on the Evangelicals in Oxford. Later he wrote that he never read anything in Darb's writings that a Papist could not have written. The Evangelicals were the Evangelicals in The Anglican Church, you couldn't get into Oxford at that time unless you were in the Church of England. John Henry Newman was at Oxford at the time and working against the Evangelicals.
J H Newman was founder of the Oxford Movement, or the tractarians, and later Joined Rome and became Cardinal Newman.

The Evangelicals at Oxford soon left the Anglican church and either became Brethren, or Strict Baptists.

In the last few days, I have come across a pubiclation that quotes some letters from Mr Maitland, in which he says that two clergyman from Dublin, Ireland gave him support. Also a letter from John Henry Newman, later Cardinal Newman, who also shewed interest. I cannot remember his actual wording, but I have it somewhere

Round about 1890, Henry Grattan Guiness wrote a book: Romanism and the Reformation, which was reprinted from a series of lectures he gave. The first four chapters are entitled:

The Daniel foreview of Romanism Part 1 & 2
Paul's foreview of Rommanism
John's foreview of Romanism.


He then has chapters showing the understanding of the prophecies in pre-reformation times, during the reformation and after the reformation. He shows that the understanding of these prophecies developed as the propecies were fulfilled. They were not prophets, so could not unravel the future but the gradually got understanding as history caught up with prophecy. They all believed what we now call historicism. I can email a copy of the book, or you can find a Google scan online or a OCR scan, but that is not all that accurate.

Before I answer you question, I will ask some questions some of which I have asked before, but not received an answer,

1 What do you think of the RCC?

a. Is it a true church?
b. Is it a church that has strayed?
c. Is it the Babylonian Harlot of Revelation?
d. Other? please explain.

2. Were the fathers, the martyrs, the Reformers, and post reformers were wrong in believing that these prophecies were historically fulfilled?

3. The Reformation.Was it a:

a, Work of God
b. Work of man,
c. Work of Satan

4. Why do you teach doctrine that is absolutely contrary to what the pre-reformation church taught, what the reformation church, baptists and others, taught, but is what the pope and his priests, bishops and cardinals taught? Edited by Invicta

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Noah' Ark? It's in Turkey in the Ararat Mountains. The upper part of the hull has moved a couple of miles down a slope but it's still there, bolts and all according to some. Hovind mentioned someone in Oklahoma or thereabouts having pieces of it on display in their converted gas station.


No, not Noah's ark. The Arc of the Covenant which had the mercy seat upon it where the blood of a lamb was poured once a year for the atonement of Israel's sins. Instead the arc was the two tables of stone containing the ten commandments, Aaron's rod that budded and a golden pot of manna. For the sacrifices to be reinstituted (i.e. when the covenant is confirmed) the arc must first be found.

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You mock and denigrate rather than put forth biblical reasons for your positions.

I've not defended any position, only brought forth the manner of discussion. It shouldn't matter what the topic is, as brothers/sisters in Christ we should be able to discuss them in a kind and respectful manner. Our discussions should be carried on in the Spirit, not in the flesh.


John, I haven't mocked anyone. I may have mocked their ridiculous beliefs which, by the way, have led to the slaughter of millions of Jews. You are just too sensitive.

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No, not Noah's ark. The Arc of the Covenant which had the mercy seat upon it where the blood of a lamb was poured once a year for the atonement of Israel's sins. Instead the arc was the two tables of stone containing the ten commandments, Aaron's rod that budded and a golden pot of manna. For the sacrifices to be reinstituted (i.e. when the covenant is confirmed) the arc must first be found.

I've heard differing views with regards to this. Does Scripture say the original ark of the covenant must be found?

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John, I haven't mocked anyone. I may have mocked their ridiculous beliefs which, by the way, have led to the slaughter of millions of Jews. You are just too sensitive.

Asking someone how they will mangle Scripture is mocking or denigrating, or both. This is unnecessary and unhelpful. In other posts you show you can provide answers, responses and rebuttals without such talk and in those there is openness for discussion and edification.

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John, I haven't mocked anyone. I may have mocked their ridiculous beliefs which, by the way, have led to the slaughter of millions of Jews. You are just too sensitive.


Oh Dear, another ridiculous teaching. How has that caused the slaughter of millions of Jews? It is RCCism that has slaughterd millions of Jews, and theirs is a doctine that you teach. Edited by Invicta

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I do not believe replacement theology. I believe what the bible teaches and that is we are grafted into Israel and when the fulness of the gentiles has come in, the Jews will be grafted back in.




Do you believe that God still has a special place in his heart for the NATION of Israel (I'm not talking about "spiritural Jews" or "Jewish Christians" here)?

Do you believe that Israel will be restored to God as his chosen nation sometime in the future?

Do you believe that the promises and covenants still belong to them?

Do you believe they have a right to the land of Palestine?

Do you believe that they should hand their land over to the Arabs?

Do you believe that the OT promises made to Abraham and David still apply to them?

Do you believe that Christ's literal and physical 1000 year reign will be upon this earth located in Israel with his capital in Jerusalem?

If not then, like most churches that came out of the Reformation and which persecuted the Jews, you do believe in Replacement Theology. And please don't try telling me that what I listed above is what the Jesuits believe.

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