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Pray For America And Israel?

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Yesterday, my pastor mentioned that we should pray that America always stays an ally of Israel. However, the Bible clearly states that all nations will rise up against them in the end. So I guess I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this? Why pray for it if we already know what God says will happen?

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For the same reason we pray about anything. One day Israel will stand completely alone. I believe I will see that day. But I should still pray. While we know the end of the story, that doesn't mean we oughtn't pray that God will protect and help.

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If that's true, then why not just pray that God doesn't destroy the world at all?

I'm not trying to argue, I just believe that if it's already laid out in the Bible, then why pray about it? For example, you don't need to pray about whether you need to be baptised, or witness to people, because the Bible already tells us that we should. So if we already know the world's fate, why pray about it?

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Yesterday, my pastor mentioned that we should pray that America always stays an ally of Israel. However, the Bible clearly states that all nations will rise up against them in the end. So I guess I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this? Why pray for it if we already know what God says will happen?


I'm not sure if all nations will rise up against Israel at the end. I recall that some peoples will help shelter her during the tribulation. Also, don't forget the "judgment of the nations" in Matthew 25. Apparently, there will be some nations that will stand with her. Maybe not the governments of the nations themselves (they'll be fully controlled by Satan) but many of the people within those nations will stand with Israel and by their faithfulness will save their nation as a whole in the end when the Lord gathers the nations in the valley of Jehoshaphat (Joel 3).

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If that's true, then why not just pray that God doesn't destroy the world at all?

I'm not trying to argue, I just believe that if it's already laid out in the Bible, then why pray about it? For example, you don't need to pray about whether you need to be baptised, or witness to people, because the Bible already tells us that we should. So if we already know the world's fate, why pray about it?


God said to pray for the peace of Jerusalem nowhere did he say pray for the world. You pray lost souls but not the world.

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I'm not sure if all nations will rise up against Israel at the end.


Maybe I'm not understanding this then:

ZECH. CHAPTER 14
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

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Jeremiah 6:22
22 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.

When God puts the hook in Magog's (Russia) jaw and draws it to Israel Ezekiel 38:4. God will raise up a great nation from the other side of earth to help Israel. Who is the great nation that will come from the other side of the earth when the fire falls Isaiah 5:24-30 and takes away some Jewish people safely to the other side of earth?

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Yesterday, my pastor mentioned that we should pray that America always stays an ally of Israel. However, the Bible clearly states that all nations will rise up against them in the end. So I guess I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this? Why pray for it if we already know what God says will happen?


For one thing we can't always know what God will do or how he will work things. Think of all the times when God told Moses that he was going to destroy Israel and then didn't due to the prayers of Moses. Or think of times like when God told Hezekiah that he was going to die and then added another 15 years on to his life when he prayed. Point being unless something is beyond a doubt a wrong thing to pray for or God clearly impresses you not to pray for something you never know what God may at times do in answer to prayer. I think many times there are multiple ways God can do things. Everything is not set in stone. If it was there would be no point in praying about anything at all.

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Yesterday, my pastor mentioned that we should pray that America always stays an ally of Israel. However, the Bible clearly states that all nations will rise up against them in the end. So I guess I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this? Why pray for it if we already know what God says will happen?

The Ninevites had a clear & unambiguous message from the Lord by Jonah:
Jonah began to e
nt
er i
nt
o the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

They reasoned:
Who can tell if God will turn and repe
nt
, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish n
ot
?

That should always be our reasoning. As Peter wrote:
The Lord is n
ot
slack concerning his promise, as some men cou
nt
slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, n
ot
willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repe
nt
ance.

But the day of the Lord will come ....


However, the judgment on Israel was completed in AD 70. There is no further mention of ethnic Israel in NT prophecy. Jesus gave clear & unambiguous warnings to the generation that rejected him. Thousands repented from the day of Pentecost & many thousands believed Jesus' warnings & fled the city when they saw the signs. Believing Jews & Gentiles together comprise the New Covenant people of God. Our concern now is to serve our Lord faithfully, to watch & pray so that we will be ready for him when he returns for resurrection & judgment.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
....

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However, the judgment on Israel was completed in AD 70. There is no further mention of ethnic Israel in NT prophecy. Jesus gave clear & unambiguous warnings to the generation that rejected him. Thousands repented from the day of Pentecost & many thousands believed Jesus' warnings & fled the city when they saw the signs. Believing Jews & Gentiles together comprise the New Covenant people of God. Our concern now is to serve our Lord faithfully, to watch & pray so that we will be ready for him when he returns for resurrection & judgment.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
....


Except you can't do away with Revelation...that has not taken place yet, no matter how one tries to argue eschatology. And the Jews are centerpiece in Revelation.


Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
:clapping:

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However, the judgment on Israel was completed in AD 70. There is no further mention of ethnic Israel in NT prophecy. Jesus gave clear & unambiguous warnings to the generation that rejected him. Thousands repented from the day of Pentecost & many thousands believed Jesus' warnings & fled the city when they saw the signs. Believing Jews & Gentiles together comprise the New Covenant people of God. Our concern now is to serve our Lord faithfully, to watch & pray so that we will be ready for him when he returns for resurrection & judgment.


Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
....



I think the judgment has gone on through the ages. Jews being rejected by all nations at times. Ajewish Christian told me that very few Jews have been born in the same country as their grandfather.



Except you can't do away with Revelation...that has not taken place yet, no matter how one tries to argue eschatology. And the Jews are centerpiece in Revelation.



The book of Revelation is a history of THE CHURCH, written in advance. Its was what comforted the martyrs through their tribulation. It was addressed to the church and concerns the church. If it was all in the future, then it would be absolutely no use to the church in her fierce persecustions. As it was, they mostly understood the prophecies and took comfort from the fact that thie persecutors would face judgment and they, themselves would receive the crown of life. Preterism has the same failure. Both that and futurtism were invented by the Jesuits to throw off the teaching of the true church that the the papacy was the Antichrist. Edited by Invicta

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It's amazing how many different interpretations there are regarding Revelation and end times prophecy. I know of a preacher who preached the pre-trib rapture for decades but recently determined he had been wrong and now says the rapture will come at the end of the tribulation. Now he's telling his flock to forget the idea they will not go through the tribulation, they better get busy doing what God says they should so they will be prepared to face the tribulation.

I know of several folks who have decided the rapture will occur at mid-trib rather than pre-trib.

A new church has formed near here that is radical pre-trib. Virtually the only thing their church focuses upon is end-times prophecy and how every little thing they see has something to do with the pre-trib rapture coming very, very soon. That church has no youth programs so thankfully some of the parents are sending their children to participate in our youth programs so they will have the opportunity to hear the whole Word of God taught.

Most folks around here still fall into the regular pre-trib camp.

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It's amazing how many different interpretations there are regarding Revelation and end times prophecy. I know of a preacher who preached the pre-trib rapture for decades but recently determined he had been wrong and now says the rapture will come at the end of the tribulation. Now he's telling his flock to forget the idea they will not go through the tribulation, they better get busy doing what God says they should so they will be prepared to face the tribulation.

I know of several folks who have decided the rapture will occur at mid-trib rather than pre-trib.

A new church has formed near here that is radical pre-trib. Virtually the only thing their church focuses upon is end-times prophecy and how every little thing they see has something to do with the pre-trib rapture coming very, very soon. That church has no youth programs so thankfully some of the parents are sending their children to participate in our youth programs so they will have the opportunity to hear the whole Word of God taught.

Most folks around here still fall into the regular pre-trib camp.


What's so amazing about this? There has always been so many different interpretations of just about every doctrine or book in the bible. Not just Revelation. In fact, I'd say that Matthew and Acts have the most amount of differing interpretations of any books of the bible. More heresies come out of wrested scripture passages from those two books than any other books in the bible.

This, of course, is because people are trying to "interpret" what the bible says instead of just believing what it says. The biggest mistake is to force the bible to fit into what your denomination or favorite theologian says it teaches.

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What's so amazing about this? There has always been so many different interpretations of just about every doctrine or book in the bible. Not just Revelation. In fact, I'd say that Matthew and Acts have the most amount of differing interpretations of any books of the bible. More heresies come out of wrested scripture passages from those two books than any other books in the bible.

This, of course, is because people are trying to "interpret" what the bible says instead of just believing what it says. The biggest mistake is to force the bible to fit into what your denomination or favorite theologian says it teaches.

It's just amazing that so many born again Christians can have such differing views on the same things. That includes the other matters you mentioned as well.

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I think the judgment has gone on through the ages. Jews being rejected by all nations at times. Ajewish Christian told me that very few Jews have been born in the same country as their grandfather.



The book of Revelation is a history of THE CHURCH, written in advance.


Oh yeah? Then explain the 144,000.

I'd like to see how your gonna mangle this.

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Oh yeah? Then explain the 144,000.

I'd like to see how your gonna mangle this.

This is why it's so difficult for people with differing views to actually attempt to sit down, discuss the details and try to come to the biblical viewpoint. On all sides the most common aspect is to attack those who differ, to belittle them, mock them, attack them. There can be no discussion in such an environment and such an approach is unedifying.

Had I held such an attitude earlier in my life I may never have been born again as what I was taught with regards to salvation was different from what Scripture teaches.

Had I held such an attitude with regards to baptism I may never have had my biblical understanding of baptism deepened, rooted and grounded.

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This is why it's so difficult for people with differing views to actually attempt to sit down, discuss the details and try to come to the biblical viewpoint. On all sides the most common aspect is to attack those who differ, to belittle them, mock them, attack them. There can be no discussion in such an environment and such an approach is unedifying.

Had I held such an attitude earlier in my life I may never have been born again as what I was taught with regards to salvation was different from what Scripture teaches.

Had I held such an attitude with regards to baptism I may never have had my biblical understanding of baptism deepened, rooted and grounded.


If you were predestined you would have been saved whether you liked it or not.

There is no sitting down with someone like the man behind the username of Invicta (as well as Covenator). He is set in his mind in what he believes. My job is to point out his ridiculous teaching of Replacement Theology that has led to the slaughter of millions of Jews throughout history. Again. let him explain who the 144,000 are. It should be a blast.

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If you were predestined you would have been saved whether you liked it or not.

There is no sitting down with someone like the man behind the username of Invicta (as well as Covenator). He is set in his mind in what he believes. My job is to point out his ridiculous teaching of Replacement Theology that has led to the slaughter of millions of Jews throughout history. Again. let him explain who the 144,000 are. It should be a blast.


Aren't they living in one of the new West Bank settlements?

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Aren't they living in one of the new West Bank settlements?


:lol: Huh?

I don't believe they know who the 144,000 are yet because all records have been lost. Somehow God will have to reveal this to them. Maybe when they find the Ark of the Covenant. Edited by Wilchbla

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Psalms 122:1 A Song of degrees of David. I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.
Psalms 122:2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.
Psalms 122:3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
Psalms 122:4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD.
Psalms 122:5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
Psalms 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalms 122:7 Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.
Psalms 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.
Psalms 122:9 Because of the house of the LORD our God I will seek thy good.

Edited by LindaR

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There is no sitting down with someone like the man behind the username of Invicta (as well as Covenator). He is set in his mind in what he believes. My job is to point out his ridiculous teaching of Replacement Theology that has led to the slaughter of millions of Jews throughout history. Again. let him explain who the 144,000 are. It should be a blast.

No. Not a "blast" but a study of Scripture.

The Lord in his warnings to the Jewish leaders & his Olivet prophecy (Mat. 21 - 24:34) makes it clear that the generation that rejected its Messiah will suffer judgment at the destruction of temple & city. A judgment that took place in AD 70. That destruction brought to an absolute end the Old Covenant with all its ritual & outward manifestations. The NC in the blood of Jesus now is established without a rival OC. See Hebrews. The OC with its circumcision effectively ended with the cross, but the Jews who rejected their Messiah were declared to be "uncircumcised" by Stephen. At much the same time, Peter was guided to open the Gospel to Gentiles without them being circumcised. Paul wrote to a largely Gentile church:
we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.


Nevertheless, there were many thousands of Jews who did believe who continued in the city despite the persecution by the unbelieving Jews. These were led by James, who presided over the Jerusalem conference, & confirmed the welcome into the church of uncircumcised Gentiles.

Rev. 1 does not need "interpreting" but reading in its natural meaning - written before the destruction of the temple & city, that destruction being seen in Rev. 11. The events were in the very near future to John (companion in tribulation) & his first readers:


The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave u
nt
o him, to shew u
nt
o his serva
nt
s things which must shortly come to pass; and he se
nt
and signified it by his angel u
nt
o his serva
nt
John:

2
Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.



The Olivet prophecy is repeated in v. 7 - those who pierced their Messiah will at last "see him" when they see his prophecies against them are fulfilled. The "piercing" defines the "kindreds of the earth" as the tribes of the land of Israel. Note that "he cometh with clouds" is an allusion to Daniel 7, Mat. 24 & Mat. 26 when Jesus was condemned for blasphemy.
13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancie
nt
of days, and they brought him near before him.

14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall n
ot
pass away, and his kingdom that which shall n
ot
be destroyed.


63
But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said u
nt
o him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64
Jesus saith u
nt
o him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say u
nt
o you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.



That sets the scene for Rev. 7, which is analogous to Ez. 9, where the faithful are marked for their protection before the destruction of the wicked, & the destruction of the city & temple by the Babylonians.

Jesus in his Olivet prophecy gave the warning signs whereby the Christians would know when to flee the doomed city. Only when they had escaped, would the judgment fall. A perfect, symbolic number of Jewish believers:
Hurt n
ot
the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the serva
nt
s of our God in their foreheads.

These believing Jews are "firstfruits" of the Gospel. They believed Jesus, & fled the city when they saw Jerusalem "compassed with armies." Their deliverance is analogous to that of Lot, leaving Sodom before its destruction.

As for persecution of Jews down the ages, that has no place in Christian thinking. God is judge, & he judged the generation that rejected its Messiah. The curse is cancelled by the Gospel, which welcomes sinners, & calls them to become the people of God regardless of ethnicity.

God graciously gave the rebellious Jews 40 years to repent. They did not learn from the Ninevites. The destruction fell on that generation.

"Covenanter" is Ian Day.

"Invicta" I have met - he lives nearly 100 miles away, the other side of London. He adopts the "historical" understanding of Revelation rather than my "preterist" understanding.

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