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It's God's Doctrine of Seperation, not IFB's. We just choose to follow the Bible as best we can. Are we perfect, no. But we try nonetheless. Living up to the incredibly high standards of God is no easy task, and the Bible says explicitly that Christians will be persecuted for their beliefs. So, in a way, thank you for claiming the Doctrine of Seperation as being ridiculous. That just means we're doing a good job!

I am not claiming that the Doctrine of Seperation is wrong. I am claiming the IFB legalistic view of the doctrine is wrong. No man can live up to the high standards of God, thats why Jesus came. Works salvation is not going to get you to heaven. You need to trust in the Grace of God, and his finished work on the cross. As to your comment "That just means were doing a good job". That sounds like a proud statement. According to the Bible ALL of your righteousness is like filthy rags in God eyes, so I dare not say I am doing a good job. Righteousness is a gift that was made possible by Jesus alone. It is the good job that Jesus has done, his finished work alone, not the fact that you are doing a good job.

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7 Go from the presence of a foolish man,
when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge. Proverbs 14:7
One must be careful what onehears or reads. I've read some articles on this thing of "spiritual abuse" in which the seemingly caring and 'helpful' author appeared to be right until I read his use of sarcasm and even expletives.; clearly a wolf in sheep's clothes. But even wolves in sheep's clothes speak some truth. "Angels of light" use every tactic imaginable I'm sure. Spiritual abuse does exist in some IFB churches, just like it can in any church. But that gives none of us the right to lump all together and condemn all. It is right to speak against such, but it is also right to have high standards, to take a stand on separation and the King James Bible. It is wrong only when we become PRIDEFUL in our separation and MISHANDLE the King James Bible to suit our selfish ends that it becomes wrong.

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7 Go from the presence of a foolish man,
when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge. Proverbs 14:7
One must be careful what onehears or reads. I've read some articles on this thing of "spiritual abuse" in which the seemingly caring and 'helpful' author appeared to be right until I read his use of sarcasm and even expletives.; clearly a wolf in sheep's clothes. But even wolves in sheep's clothes speak some truth. "Angels of light" use every tactic imaginable I'm sure. Spiritual abuse does exist in some IFB churches, just like it can in any church. But that gives none of us the right to lump all together and condemn all. It is right to speak against such, but it is also right to have high standards, to take a stand on separation and the King James Bible. It is wrong only when we become PRIDEFUL in our separation and MISHANDLE the King James Bible to suit our selfish ends that it becomes wrong.


Well put.

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Thank you for the link. The article is flawed from the beginning because there is no IFB "Denomination". The "I" in IFB stands for Independent, which each IFB church is, they are not tied together in any Denomination.

While most IFB churches do tend to make biblical separation a key point in their church, how this is put into practice differs and varies from one IFB church to the next. There are some which go overboard and engage in adding man-made rules and applications, there are some which go the other direction and drop many clearly biblical aspects of separation and there are the rest which seek to properly apply biblical separation.

You need to be more specific when dealing with matters IFB because it's not a denomination and there is so much variety between IFB churches. As the CCM discussion points out, there are IFB churches which use CCM while there are those who vehmently oppose such, and there are a variety between those two points.

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I am not claiming that the Doctrine of Seperation is wrong. I am claiming the IFB legalistic view of the doctrine is wrong. No man can live up to the high standards of God, thats why Jesus came. Works salvation is not going to get you to heaven. You need to trust in the Grace of God, and his finished work on the cross. As to your comment "That just means were doing a good job". That sounds like a proud statement. According to the Bible ALL of your righteousness is like filthy rags in God eyes, so I dare not say I am doing a good job. Righteousness is a gift that was made possible by Jesus alone. It is the good job that Jesus has done, his finished work alone, not the fact that you are doing a good job.

If anyone, IFB or otherwise, attempts to add performance or works as a requirement for salvation they are wrong. That's not the approach of the vast majority of IFB churches. Scripture tells us that if we are saved our works, how we live our lives, will show this. Good works follow salvation, they are not a means to salvation nor of keeping ones salvation.

Scripture tells Christians, "be ye holy, for I am holy", as well as telling us to be perfect as He is perfect. No doubt we can't fully attain to this in this life but that is to be our aim. Following Christ is a very high calling and our pursuing holiness must stem from our heart, not from our own efforts to "keep the rules"; our living by the Word of God must come from a heart living for God which brings about a life lived in accord with God's Word.

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No, I don't believe anything I read on the Way of Life website by Brother Cloud. Way of Life is not the final authority. It is one of the worst website to get truthful information. The Word of God is the final authority, I don't care how much research Brother Cloud had done on CCM. They that are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. There is no one who can live up to the standards of the IFB Church and their ridiculos Doctrine of Seperation. True that Christians are not suppose to be joined with unbelievers; however the IFB Doctrine of Seperation is not obtainiable by anyone.



“The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.” – Proverbs 10:8

“They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them” – Proverbs 28:4


“Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.” – Proverbs 15:10

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” – 1 Corinthians 2:14



Would you share your testimony with us sir?

Edited by swathdiver

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We all seem to perceive 'worldliness' as "ball games", "fishing and hunting", "vacations", movies, dress, hair, CCM etc. and this is all true but I've often observed a form of worldliness, in churches, which seems to get overlooked and can be very very hurtful .........

The desire to dominate

Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

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Hi all,

I submitted a post earlier on another thread. I'll repeat just a tad of what said there about myself to let you know where I'm coming from. I am a member of a small Baptist church and we do use CCM. I am one of the two electric guitar players there, but I'm not here to defend myself or argue. I've read a lot of very good thoughts, here. All I have to say to you, brothers and sisters, is hold it loosely. I'm serious. For those, like myself, who incorporate CCM, we must hold it loosely. Don't defend it, or yourselves, too adamantly. The Word of God does not call us to defend music.

Both John81 and swathdiver make some good points. I agree with John81's points and questions about what constitutes godly music in different cultures and time periods. But swathdiver's points about separation warrant careful consideration, as well. Even if you disagree about some of his points, don't grip CCM too tightly. Suppose he is correct in his conclusions about CCM, the question to ask yourself is if you are truly willing to walk away from it.

Personally, I'm more and more of the opinion that much of our worship, regardless of style, is an offensive thing to God. All across the land we draw near to Him with our lips, but our hearts are, oh, so far from Him.

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Thank you for the link. The article is flawed from the beginning because there is no IFB "Denomination". The "I" in IFB stands for Independent, which each IFB church is, they are not tied together in any Denomination.



The Brethren also say that they are not denomination or a sect, but of course they are. Denomination onmly means the name you are known as.

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The Brethren also say that they are not denomination or a sect, but of course they are. Denomination onmly means the name you are known as.

I don't know about England, but here a denomination is an official association of churches yoked together. IFBs are independent, not yoked to one another. There are "camps" and "cliques" among some IFB churches but as a whole, IFB churches are not a denomination.

This is something which brings up some irony because most IFBs will loudly declare they are not a denomination, which means they are non-denominational, yet at the same time some of them will lash out at all other non-denominational churches.

One bad trend here in America is IFB churches seeming to follow the way of many in the SBC. While IFB once clearly meant a Bible believing, Bible practicing, separated, biblically conservative church, today that's no longer the case. Today one can find IFB churches still fitting the previous description, but also IFB churches which are rather liberal and a variety in between.

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you know this is easier said then done you relize that do you? I feel like I am a whole sinner now since I listen and go to a church that uses CCM , they are not lukewarm and I am not lukewarm in the Faith. Matter in fact the church I looked into with my husband just bought some properity for another service because of their ministries are growing? I believe that Verse you shared goes for mostly secular music and television and all. Its between a Christian and God what music they listen too. I was told while growing up with a Born Again family which listened to CCM like Michael W Smith and Steven Curtis chaplin and alike that if its singing about glorifying the Lord or the Lord itself its what they accepted in the house. There was times this family would say Christian ROCK bands like POD , skillet, and anything that sounds like Led Zepplin are not true Christian singers, but the CCM groups they listened too were their at home likes of the listening to the music.
To tell you the truth all of my Life I been a Lutheran , Catholic, some points of time athiest and Bible Believe and Baptist and so on . But my early days of my life I was a Lutheran, I was in their Choir when I was 10 years old and the hymns we sang was very sacred and I fell in love with them . There are some songs that I remember but I cannot put into my mind right now but I loved chorical muscial hymns and still do over any music that is discussed in this thread. Something I hardly tell the Baptist folk but I am telling you now that I do like Sacred Christian hymns, I sometimes listen and you can look up Sacred Christian hymns radio that is broadcasted on skyangel but you can listen to it online. Also whatever BBN plays I like that move the CCM . However , I do like Southern Gospel and Blue Grass Gospel its the way you present yourself like it was said to these songs.



The hymns are actually secondary, my love for God & His ways comes 1st.

Of course, we are all sinners, the only difference some are saved sinners.

We have an elderly lady, she was raised Lutheran, but she will quickly tell you, they teach not God's truths, & she is right on. No matter how pretty, great sounding, any singing may be, if the church teaches not the truth, you have nothing.

As for me the prettiest singing I've heard is congregation singing in church with a piano playing in the background.

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When I was in a Nazarene church many years ago before I knew about independent baptist churches (and finally got my heart right), I was told by a Nazaren pastor that we had to bring in music that would appeal to teens (meaning that head-banging type of CCM). Even though I wasn't IFB at that point, I knew that that was wrong. Once the pastor started to bring that stuff in, my wife and I and 2 other couples tried to discuss it with him once more. We all subsequently left the church. This pastor was also found to have taken $$ from tithes and offerings, which finally forced the hand of the Nazarene District council to remove him.

I've also heard from good, sound, Biblical preachers (and read in articles, books, etc.), that if one "has to conjure up" the emotions/spirit by using music that is akin to a rock concert that that is wrong. Most CCM is worldly, hedging on rock, rap or whatever. A large majority of the "musicians" if you will are not doing it to glorify God, rather are in it for the wrong reasons, whether it is just for money or trying to advance the one world church methodology. Many, many CCM performers have been quoted as saying that they love rock and roll and other kinds of worldly music and see no reason to keep it out of the church. While searching for a new home church a few years back, my wife and I walked out of a service in the beginning because of the music.....the performers were on the platform bringing attention to themselves (not to mention the inappropriate clothing), swaying, jumping up and down, etc. It was as if we were at a rock concert. I'm sorry, but drums and electric guitars have NO PLACE in church.

IMHO, if one listens to CCM and other worldly music on a consistent basis, he/she is not doing him/herself much good and is just consistently opening the door for Satan to walk right in.

How do good churches fall....if it isn't by watering down the preaching, it's by allowing the world to creep in, and that is usually through music. It's been said in other threads, and I may get this out of order, that the downfall of a church begins with either a compromise or lowering of standard, and/or bringing in worldly music.

Jesus taught separation. If one is saved and committed to Jesus, he/she cannot dabble in the world. You cannot sit on the fence and pick and choose what parts of Gods word to follow....that is just what the world and Satan say is ok. As said above, one cannot be a cafeteria (or Burger King) Christian. Either you are sold out and committed to Jesus Christ or you are not.

Off of my soap box.....


A thought I recently had about 3 churches.

I know of a just a few churches that's gone very liberal, yet the preaching is usually quite solid. It seems the liberalism comes in being brought by a few of the liberal members, & quite soon these few will pull down the whole church, more than likely this will happen when they change pastors. The liberal element will want a liberal pastor & likely stand solid against a conservative pastor.

Ga 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Does not seem to take many liberals to pull down a whole church. Plus many times the liberal Christians will be lovers of CCM & even Christian rock.

And if a good solid pastor is called to a church with him knowing its fell into the path of CCM & Christian rock, he will not accept their call to be pastor. Yet for the liberal pastor who has a love for CCM & Christian rock may think he has found Heaven on earth.

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Some people just plain hate any standard of living, yet God has given us a standard of how we ought to live our life, that is if we love Him, & theses standards are not grievous.

And it seems when standards are taught, they will always bring up the thought, we are trying to be saved by the standards we try to hold to & teach. When in all reality we do teach & believe on is saved by grace though faith, not of self, not of works, its a gift from God while we try to live up to God's standards, commandments, simply because:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

We love the Father & the Son while knowing very well that we all:

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Falls short of the glory of God.


Yet His standards, standards, commandments:

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

are not grievous to us. And we try the best we know how to hold to them, live them, teach them, & preach them, if we don't, them we are not holding to God's whole truths, & only His truth will make us free.

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Ga 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Does not seem to take many liberals to pull down a whole church. Plus many times the liberal Christians will be lovers of CCM & even Christian rock.



Amen! Have yet to see CCM lady listeners dress modestly at church AND out in public. They're usually very liberal in their politics and are always telling us that "they said" popcorn, coffee, saran wrap, plastic containers, freon, aluminum foil, etc. is going to cause death or serious bodily injury.

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A thought I recently had about 3 churches.

I know of a just a few churches that's gone very liberal, yet the preaching is usually quite solid. It seems the liberalism comes in being brought by a few of the liberal members, & quite soon these few will pull down the whole church, more than likely this will happen when they change pastors. The liberal element will want a liberal pastor & likely stand solid against a conservative pastor.

Ga 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Does not seem to take many liberals to pull down a whole church. Plus many times the liberal Christians will be lovers of CCM & even Christian rock.

And if a good solid pastor is called to a church with him knowing its fell into the path of CCM & Christian rock, he will not accept their call to be pastor. Yet for the liberal pastor who has a love for CCM & Christian rock may think he has found Heaven on earth.



You're exactly right here. I know of a church now that has about a half-dozen people who are big into CCM, modern versions of the Bible, and theological liberalism. This church for over 50 years has stood on the King James Bible holding forth good standards and refusing to give in to worldly compromise, however the current pastor is refusing to take a hard stand against such compromise (I believe because his son is the greatest source of it in the church). Because of this, the church is heading down a slippery slope and I fear within the next generation it will no longer be a lighthouse of God's truth here on this world.

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You're exactly right here. I know of a church now that has about a half-dozen people who are big into CCM, modern versions of the Bible, and theological liberalism. This church for over 50 years has stood on the King James Bible holding forth good standards and refusing to give in to worldly compromise, however the current pastor is refusing to take a hard stand against such compromise (I believe because his son is the greatest source of it in the church). Because of this, the church is heading down a slippery slope and I fear within the next generation it will no longer be a lighthouse of God's truth here on this world.


Amazes me, so many people feels all music is innocent. That is not true, liberals use music to bring in their liberal teachings.

I read this article just a bit ago, even hate groups use music to enlist others, just as liberal Christians use music to pull others down to their level.

Are Military Hate Groups on the Rise?

"And he used music – a brand of racist heavy metal known as "Oi." "Music gets stuck in your head," he said"

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No doubt music gets stuck in ones head, it's a powerful tool for good or evil. I still have musical jingles and TV theme songs stuck in my head from when I was a child!


Me too. Having been of the world for 36 years I had to make a concerted effort to replace the world's music with Godly music (it was easy to replace CCM though! hehehe). That being said, the world's music still "pops" into my head, especially when I'm backslidden, and then start humming a hymn to replace it.

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Me too, there several old country western tunes that are locked in my mind.

I don't remember the exact quote, but its something like this.

"Sometimes our happiness can depend on what you did not let enter your mind."

There's many things that I've let enter my mind that I wish I had not, for once its there it can do untold damage for many years to come.

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There's many things that I've let enter my mind that I wish I had not, for once its there it can do untold damage for many years to come.


Besides Scripture that has got to be one of the most important quotes I've ever read! This also applies to what parents allow to enter their children's mind's too.

One of our daughters was taught to be content with what she had. "You get what you get and don't get upset" she used to repeat around the house. Then a liberal "Christian" teacher got it into her head about everything having to be fair! We still haven't gotten that out of her system! YET!!!

My, my, the things I've done, watched and read that drove me further and further from God. It's a miracle that my name is in the book of life!

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Besides Scripture that has got to be one of the most important quotes I've ever read! This also applies to what parents allow to enter their children's mind's too.

One of our daughters was taught to be content with what she had. "You get what you get and don't get upset" she used to repeat around the house. Then a liberal "Christian" teacher got it into her head about everything having to be fair! We still haven't gotten that out of her system! YET!!!

My, my, the things I've done, watched and read that drove me further and further from God. It's a miracle that my name is in the book of life!


100% agree, me too!

If we would have only trusted & obeyed God, for He knows what's best for us, & not let many of those things enter our mind, our happiness would be fuller, & probably our sorrows fewer. Yet, at this point what's important is what we do from this day forward.

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A year or so ago I met a young Christian, 19 years old, who had been raised in a good Christian home, was born again at a young age, homeschooled and was taking online college courses from a Christian college. He was down here working for some local Christians and living with them over the summer. He told me how shocked he was at the difference between most of the Christians he was meeting, including those he was staying with, and those he grew up around.

In his home growing up, and in the homes of his Christian friends, there were no TVs, no secular radio, no unlimited internet access, no worldly magazines and books, and they all attended and participated in church whenever the doors were open. In the Christians home he was staying in for the summer they not only had TV, this young man was literally shocked at what they watched on TV! He was also surprised to see all the worldly books and magazines in the home. The family he was staying with attended church "most" Sunday mornings and not much else church related.

All of this was a shock to see not only the family he was staying with but most other Christians he was coming into contact with, living as they were. He said he was finding it a real challenge to stay away from the worldly influences all around him and was noticing things popping up in his mind that weren't there before. He was considering moving back home before the summer ended and forgetting about the job experience and the income. He may have done that because I only spoke with him twice and then I never saw him again.

On another occasion there was a gathering of some young foreign Christians in a town not far from here. I was in the area so I stopped by to see what the churches had put together for them. It was an ecumenical, worldy mess. At the end of the event someone came to the microphone and told everyone they could hang around and listen to music and dance as long as they wanted to. I saw a shocked look on the faces of several of the foreign Christians faces. Then the loud, rockin' "Christian" music started pouring out of the speakers and the young American Christians all began dancing and trying to get the foreign Christians to join them.

Myself, a friend and several of the foreign Christians from Asia moved away from the loudness and had a nice long conversation. Each of the young Asian Christians said such music and dancing would not be allowed where they came from. They said they had always heard America was a Christian nation but after their visit here they didn't believe that was true. From their perspective most American Christians were living just like the lost except they were wearing a Christian mask.

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