Hate The Sin, Love The Sinner.

[heartstrings]

Matthew 5
⁴³ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

⁴⁴ But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

⁴⁵ That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

⁴⁶ For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

⁴⁷ And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

⁴⁸ Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

A pastor of an IFB church posted on Facebook that some Christians were taking counsel or advice from a "pantheist". When I inquired who the pantheist was, he replied that it was Ghandi. I looked it up and low and behold, Mahatma Ghandi was evidently the originator of the phrase; "hate the sin, love the sinner ". I didn't know that. So I replied with........ "God loved the world, -John 3:16, God loves sinners,Romans 5:8, and God expects us to love our enemies like He loves His, Matthew 5:44-47 then I said "shame on Ghandi for not giving our God the glory for his love of sinners." ---The pastor 'defriended' me.

If God hates sinners, as some seem to imply, then why did Jesus admonish us to love our enemies? Why would God expect us to love even someone who persecutes us if He is unwilling to do so Himself? The good news is: He isn't. By our loving our enemies, we are demonstrating how God is. By "doing good to those that hate us" we are showing the "goodness of God that leadeth to repentence" By being a blessing to our enemies we can show God's blessings of "sending His rain on the unjust" . The Bible says that the Holy Ghost convinces us of sin, righteousness, and judgment". This is the whole counsel of God. If we say that God hates sinners, How will they see the goodness of God and be led to repentence?" This is NOT the whole counsel. The one that is missing is God's righteousness. God's righteousness doesn't just consist of what He "doesn't do"; a rock or a tree never sins. God's righteousness is more what He DOES do. God loves. God IS love actually.

In a nutshell, we are all sinners deserving of Hell, and God WILL put us there if we do not repent and trust in a trustworthy Jesus, On the flip side, if all we preach is love without the sin and judgment, there again, it isn't the whole counsel of God. There must be all three; sin, righteousness, and judgement. The fact is, "without Him we can do nothing"; so it;s impossible for us to "love our enemies" without the "Lover of enemies" working through us. I can't help what Ghandi might have said; but even wolves in sheep clothes tell the truth sometimes.

Edited August 5, 2012 by heartstrings

[JerryNumbers]

Yes, but how many of us practice loving our enemies?

Are we not in the day that even many Christians says, "Strike them before they strike us?"

[heartstrings]

Yes, some of us do strike first. Some make comments, as the person above did. knowing full well there will be a question or a reaction. Some even seem to measure the 'spirituality' of their comments by how much of a negative reaction they can get. I've heard men before, even on this board, speak against the saying "hate the sin, love the sinner", teaching on the contrary that God, instead, "hates" sinners. I strongly disagree. Though we may fail to "love our enemies", that doesn't change the fact that God expects it nor does the fact that He doesn't expect us to do anything which is more righteous than He does Himself. Before I could ever love Jesus, He loved me first

We love him, because he first loved us. 1 John: 4:19

Edited August 6, 2012 by heartstrings

[JerryNumbers]

I was speaking in context of Christians agreeing with Mr. Bush, strike Iraq before they strike us with their weapons of mass destruction. Not anything to do with this forum nor those that post here.

That would not exactly be loving you enemies, & treating them as you wish them to treat you. It seems more like hating those you call your enemies.

[heartstrings]

We also are not to strike back, second, as in the context of 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth', neither we as individuals have the right to kill anyone.. But God gave goverment the right and duty to do so. If your state practices capital punishment, they do so with the full sanction of God. God also allowed our country to invade another "sovereign" nation when we took out Adolf Hitler, who was persecuting and murdering God's people. I'm thankful that my country helped to put a stop to it...The same God who sent he children of Israel to judge the Canaanites also allowed America to judge an oppressive, wicked, vile, murdering Sadaam Hussein too. He did evil and America "ruled"!! She ain't perfect, but I love my country.

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Romans 13:4

[irishman]

Good post heartstrings, I agree. We need to keep in mind that this country is not run by Christians, and the Bible is not Bush's "rule Book", or any other politicians, necessarily. To condemn their actions means little because they could care less what the Bible says about it, especially when they appoint themselves watchdogs over all the world. I like the spread of Democracy, and am for it, but not necessarily "bullying", although sometimes it ppears to be bullying in the eyes of those who are subject to it. One must draw the lines, and keep them there.

[Fixation]

It's so subtle that it is easy to miss, which is why most people do. God does NOT hate sinners, rather God hates sin.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

God's love is demonstrated in that He is not willing that any should perish. God does not want a single soul to be lost to Hell, but in the most gracious display of love God allows us to exercise free will.

God's hatred for sin is demonstrated in His desire that all should come to repentance. God (I feel silly saying this because it's obvious) knows that sin does not have any place in Heaven. God has absolutely no part in sin. It's as far from Him as the east is from the west. By repenting, that division, that separation is instantly removed. The chasm that was separating the sinner from God is no more. All a person has to do is believe! "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

The Bible does not say that God so loved most of the world, or that God so loved a select few. It says for God so loved the world! If that's not love, then I don't know what is.

[1Timothy115]

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This is why we have to separate the individual homosexual from the homosexual movement. We need to share the gospel with the individual but we need to defend the Gospel.

Philippians 1:17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

It's a thin line but we have to walk it.

Edited August 6, 2012 by 1Tim115

[20JC12]

As a human at times it can be very hard to seperate the sin from the sinner.

A good example would be when a spouse commits adultery (“Thou shalt not commit adultery” Exodus 20:14 KJV) an immediate reaction is to not only hate the actual sin that has been committed, but to uniformly transfer that hate/anger towards the spouse who committed such sin. As if they both coincide when in reality they do not. The question I ask in this example would be… does the sinner hate the sin?

We know that the scriptures tell us that we are not to stand in judgment of others, “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” Matthew 7:1-2 KJV, as this would make us hypocrites in G_ds eyes since we ourselves are sinners (who are we to judge?).

Thinking about how one should approach such a situation Galatians 6:1-3 KJV comes to mind, “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.”

It is up to those who are spiritual to help restore the spirit in those who have otherwise fallen to sin by temptation. Far more is gained “…in the spirit of meekness” to help the sinner through their time of repentance for their sin. This by no means translates a person not having accountability for their actions, but holding someone responsible and casting judgment are two very different things. Holding someone responsible is done out of love whereas judgment is not.

Edited August 6, 2012 by 20JC12

[heartstrings]

Just got this message, hope he won't mind my quoting it. What is your take on all this?

I would never suspect you of being a follower of Ghandi, but I do realize that many are oblivious to the saturation of his false teaching within the sphere of modern day christianity. It really is a very dangerous thought that is being promoted in such a statement of hating the sin and loving the sinner, in order to do so one must first forget what the Bible teaches about God himself. God hates not only sin, but he hates the sinner as well, Ps 5:5, Rom 9:13. I understand that to say such things in our modern world makes one look like they are from the nutjob Westboro baptists, but the Bible clearly teaches that God hates sinners. This is a great paradox of the Godhead, because he can hate while at the same time loving, just as he can be eternal while being in time as well! We are also told that David hated sinners Ps139:20-24 and counted them his enemy, and Jesus taught us to love our enemies! Is the word of God immutable... certainly! We must have the Spirit of God in order to have this perfect hatered, which allows us to hate not only the sinners deeds, but also they themselves. We are told to "Love not the world niether the things that are in the world" and sinners are in and of the world, and their father the devil and God will not tolerate his children playing with the enemies children. This hatred that we are to have is not going to cause us to kill them, or anything like that, but will cause us to separate from them, while remaining with an outreached hand of love to help them when their ox is under a burden. Ex 23:4-5 As to offending me, please dont ever worry about that, if I do get offended I have no right to be.
God bless

[20JC12]

Just got this message, hope he won't mind my quoting it. What is your take on all this?

Was this the same person to defriended you?

He refers to Psalm 5:5 KJV which stays, "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

“The foolish shall not stand in thy sight” means exactly what it says that those who are foolish obviously are not living as G_d commands. The second part, “thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” Is saying that G_d hates those who are workers of evil. I don’t see where that says G_d hates the sinner. Obviously he’s talking about those who work on evil doings. Someone who sins is not working on the evil doings as it is the evil doings that worked on him tempting him to commit the sin.

Unless that is he’s lumping in the workers of evil as the same as sinners? Which would then mean that G_d hates us all so there would be the connection to Westboro Baptists.

[Invicta]

Just got this message, hope he won't mind my quoting it. What is your take on all this?

The scripture says all that. It also says Mr 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Jesus also said:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[JerryNumbers]

¶ To the chief Musician upon Nehiloth, A Psalm of David. Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.
Ps 5:2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.
Ps 5:3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.
Ps 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Ps 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Ps 5:7 ¶ But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

And if we go a bit further, David tells us, “Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man,’ Thou being God, 'God will destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.’

Quite strong words. In that day the sinner, unrepented sinner, the lost soul, will not seem to be experiencing love from God, they had their opportunity, yet they rejected the love God offered, & even more so rejected His Son the Savior.

Yet at this time, or until they die, they can have the love of God, yet there is only one way for them to receive it, turn from their wayward ways, repent, & get saved.

Mt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

By the same token, those that do not hunger and thirst after righteousness will not be blessed: they shall not be filled.

[irishman]

it is very hard to separate the sin from the sinner--they become one! To hate one would necessitate hating the other to some extent. Our "Love" for them comes in sharing the Gospel with them, what greater love can man have than that? We love to see them turn their life around, and accept Christ, but we hate them in their sin.

When God punished sin, He punished people! He rebuked the sin, and punished or judged the sinner. (Need I recite scripture to that which we all know is true?)

[Standing Firm In Christ]

It is obvious by Scripture that God both hates the sinner and also loves them.

How is this possible?

He's God.

The Hebrew word for "workers" in Psalm 5:5 is the word "pa'al" and indicates one who makes a practice of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 is not speaking of those who sin a particular sin on occasion, but rather those who would go out of their way to commit a sin.

It is those who make a practice of sin that God calls foolish, for He extends His love to all and the practicing sinner rejects that love and loves darkness rather than light because his deeds are evil.