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David Cloud Sword Of The Lord Article

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Let's not confuse the how with the what. Some may disagree with how they think he comes across - but make sure you don't throw out his ministry if what he says lines up with Scripture. If it does, we need to heed it regardless of whether we like his manner of teaching or exposing truth. We are responsible before the Lord to obey the truth when we hear/read it, whether we like a preacher or his style or not. I'm sure king David thought Nathan the prophet was irritable or abrasive when he exposed David's sin.

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I haven't read this whole thread yet, so you may have already answered these questions/my concerns. You say your husband received this article yesterday? Could you please give the title and/or a link to the article that we may all see it for ourselves? It seems your statements are gosip themselves, especially with no direct information to back them up. Yes it is very easy/possible to be hyper-critical, but I'd like to see his article personally and not just your opinion, please.

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My response above was my first reaction to kitagirl's post. But now I justread through the email Cloud sent out regarding his new book on this subject. I see some of the names and compromises he mentions. As far as that goes, he is right.

I have enjoyed reading some of Paul Chappel's devotions for a few years, but have been seriously grieved the few times he quotes people like C.S. Lewis (an unsaved heretic) without warning against him or his writings. Something even as simple as, I don't agree with all his theology, but he made a good point when he said such and such, would have made a difference. Can't remember which church Reese was involved in (Reese Chronological Bible, which was mentioned on these boards recently, not saying Cloud mentioned him, but using him as an example), but that church does not give a warning against the biographies Reese puts out - and some are serious heretics, some even unsaved in certain cases, or at the very least someone we should be cautioned against. The music is a concern that has been creeping into churches more and more. I notice that Clarence Sexton is allowing preachers to come into his pulpit that should never be there. I love his messages, but these kind of things grieve my soul - and they are all aspects of how far does separation go.

So regardless of whether someone thinks Cloud goes too far in his warnings, these are things to be warned about. And many IFBs hate it when someone speaks against one of their churches or preachers - even if it is someone associated with Hyles, etc.

I don't know what the solution is. Being separated from all that is ungodly, worldly, doctrinally unsound, makes someone a serious loner and miserable. Been there. But the solution is not to refuse to separate and to let the world or compromise in. Being backslidden since losing my job at the Mission, I have let in some things that I should not have - partly to fit in with my brother, and partly because I just gave up fighting. BUT that is where the emptiness came in!! Now that God has given me a renewed purpose and opportunities for service, His direction to remove all these things is super clear. It is not me being hypercritical, but obedient.

So is brother Cloud going too far or being too much of a separatist? I don't know - but his warnings are worth heeding. How much they apply to individuals and their ministries or churches is something we would have to gauge for ourselves.

In reading this, I say a whole-hearted AMEN to it!
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I received that article in my email yesterday, but it has not been posted to the Way of Life website yet. The name of the article is:
"WHY THE SWORD OF THE LORD CROWD WILL BE EMERGING WITHIN A GENERATION", June 18, 2012. I would assume that it will be posted to the website within the next few days.

Thanks for the info, I'll check their RSS feed!
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Here's a copy/paste of the article referenced.




WHY THE SWORD OF THE LORD CROWD WILL BE EMERGING


WITHIN A GENERATION



JUNE 18, 2012


(David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org)





The National Sword of the Lord conference is scheduled for July 23-27 at Gospel Light Baptist Church, Walkertown, North Carolina. The speakers are Marc Dalton, Joe Arthur, Frank Gagliano, Jeff Fugate, John Hamblin, Tim Rabon, Lou Rossi, Kevin Folger, Mark Campbell, Raymond Barber, Norris Belcher, Mike Norris, Bobby Roberson, Paul Chappell, R.B.Ouellette, and Mike Allison. The Sword director is Shelton Smith.

In the book Why Most Independent Baptist Churches Will Be Emerging, we give the following eight reasons why we are convinced that most IFBaptist churches will be well down the contemporary path within a generation:

The maligning of warning and reproof
Unquestioning loyalty to man
Following the crowd
Ignorance about important Issues
Soft separatism
Lack of serious discipleship
Carelessness about music
Quick Prayerism

These points apply to the churches that are most deeply influenced by and that most deeply resonate with the Sword of the Lord.

The bottom line is that these churches, for the most part, are simply not prepared to face the level of spiritual warfare that is raging against every Bible-believing church today.

The Sword has never renounced the cult of Jack Hyles. It has never warned of Lee Roberson’s soft and ineffectual separatism which resulted in the dramatic downfall of Highland Park Baptist Church. It has never lifted a voice against Paul Chappell’s dangerous, unscriptural adaptation of contemporary worship music. In fact, in the most idolatrous manner, the Sword does not allow any warnings to be issued in regard to its heroes. Any such warnings are mischaracterized and the warners maligned. There is not a more effective “good old boys” network anywhere. As for the heresy of Quick Prayerism, the Sword has been at the forefront of promoting the men who created it and exalting those who practice it.

WHY MOST INDEPENDENT BAPTIST CHURCHES WILL BE EMERGING is available as a free 65-page eBook from the Way of Life web site -- http://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/

THE TWO JACKS: JACK HYLES AND JACK SCHAAP is also available as a free eBook. Few men have had a greater influence on the Sword than Jack Hyles.
H



Thank you for posting the article. I found it excellent and right on target!
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I think that perhaps it is Bro. Cloud's intention to warn God's people about certain "things" that are creeping into our churches. In doing so, he will name the names of those individuals who are allowing these "things" to creep in. Bro. Cloud has said time and time again that he has a "Warning Ministry". Part of that is to warn the leaders of churches and ministries when they begin to drift.

I don't believe that it is Bro. Cloud's intention to slander anyone; rather, he hopes that in pointing out error, those people involved will see the error and repent. I think the reason it seems that Bro. Cloud is "more negative" and pointing out more and more problems with people and ministries is because error is becoming rampant in churches, and more and more people are willing to accept it.

I don't agree with everything Bro. Cloud says; he's fallible just like any man, but I do find myself agreeing with him the majority of the time.

I don't even agree with myself all the time! :nuts:

Exactly and LOL! For those who don't know, I was in Easy Believism/Quick Prayerism for around six years, before, during and after my Bible college years. The LORD got me out of it, by getting me around preaching from such men as Larry Raynes, Dale Massengale and too many others to mention here. Even though He was getting me out of it, it took a little while for it to get all out of my system, if you know what I mean. I praise and thank the LORD for men who take a biblical stand against false doctrine, as Brother Cloud has done/is doing! No, he isn't perfect, but before we start thinking higher of ourselves than we ought, we aren't either. We're fallible but God's word, the KJB isn't! BTW, for preaching from the men I mentioned and those too many others to mention here, please go to the link in my signiture! Thank you.
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It's a fine line between warning about things and "cutting" those involved with the blade.

There is also that line we must all determine as to when an otherwise sound pastor/ministry has crossed over and should be viewed with caution or avoided.

The Sword of the Lord is a good example of this. They have a very loyal following, many of which will tend to put loyalty to their "camp" above cautions voiced by others.

Cloud is probably just pointing out some of what many of us have seen, and that is IFB no longer means what it once did and will only become more that way. At some point in the future, it's probable many who are IFB today will have to come up with another identifying name because there will be so many wayward or outright wrong IFB churches/ministries/pastors out there.

So, where do we draw the line? If an IFB church uses select contemporary music set to a piano is that something to separate over, something to denounce their entire ministry over? What about if they sometimes quote from those who were biblically unsound in some areas? Then that would lead to just how unsound could they have been and still be worth quoting. What about Spurgeon, Wesley, Luther, Graham, Hyles, Rogers, Smith?

Those were just a couple examples, we could add others.

The point is, are we able to come up with a clear line or will we find that in some matters it's more of a boundary area with a clear line not being seen until one gets to the other side of that boundary area?

Good points John. Unfortunately, the SOTL bunch is more loyal to the SOTL than they are to Christ.
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I read most of the eBook you mentioned in the earlier post. I agree with No Nicolaitans this is meant to be a warning.

I wonder what Bro. Cloud would say about the FBF and the FBFI?

Serious question here: Who? Never heard of them before, I don't think.
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I'm not bashing, but I guess that I'm a little surprised that the number of "right" churches must be less than I thought. Much of what Cloud says is accurate. If it wasn't for some of his warnings I would definitely be less "in-the-know." When I moved from MO to OH I figured it would be difficult to find a good church (and one that doesn't have a hint of falling away), and I was right. I miss my old church back in MO in many ways.

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I think that perhaps it is Bro. Cloud's intention to warn God's people about certain "things" that are creeping into our churches. In doing so, he will name the names of those individuals who are allowing these "things" to creep in. Bro. Cloud has said time and time again that he has a "Warning Ministry". Part of that is to warn the leaders of churches and ministries when they begin to drift.

I don't believe that it is Bro. Cloud's intention to slander anyone; rather, he hopes that in pointing out error, those people involved will see the error and repent. I think the reason it seems that Bro. Cloud is "more negative" and pointing out more and more problems with people and ministries is because error is becoming rampant in churches, and more and more people are willing to accept it.

I don't agree with everything Bro. Cloud says; he's fallible just like any man, but I do find myself agreeing with him the majority of the time.

I don't even agree with myself all the time! :nuts:


I subscribe to Bro. Clouds newsletters, & I subscribe to Sword of the Lord. I'm cautious with Bro. Cloud, & I've very cautious with the whose who among the Sword of the Lord's bunch. And some of those in the Sword of the Lord I could not recommend to anyone. And neither do I speak out against them, I know not enough about them.

And I enjoy reading both of them.
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My husband did write Cloud defending his home pastor (one of the pastors named) who is one of the straightest, narrowest IFB pastors you'll meet. The difference with him is that he does not choose "camps" to remain in. He preaches where he preaches if they are decent churches.

Obviously David Cloud is very strong in Secondary Separation but I don't know that God tells us to publicly and nationally name names of pastors as being "compromising" if the pastor himself and his church are straight down the line and right with God.

God doesn't appreciate criticism against men of God. My husband's pastor answers to God.....NOT David Cloud.

David Cloud's email to my husband was slightly egotistical and basically warning my husband for being uninformed since he has not read all of Cloud's books and materials. He maintained that he was right in publicly mentioning a good man's name from the pulpit. He even went so far as to say that he realizes the man is a good pastor and pastors a good church, but because he preached at the Sword Conference, he deserved to have his name publicly mentioned in his warning.

Can someone show me Scripture to show Cloud is not stepping out of bounds, here? I don't think so.... I think he needs to be careful before God starts sticking up for some of His Pastors.

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My husband did write Cloud defending his home pastor (one of the pastors named) who is one of the straightest, narrowest IFB pastors you'll meet. The difference with him is that he does not choose "camps" to remain in. He preaches where he preaches if they are decent churches.

Obviously David Cloud is very strong in Secondary Separation but I don't know that God tells us to publicly and nationally name names of pastors as being "compromising" if the pastor himself and his church are straight down the line and right with God.

God doesn't appreciate criticism against men of God. My husband's pastor answers to God.....NOT David Cloud.

David Cloud's email to my husband was slightly egotistical and basically warning my husband for being uninformed since he has not read all of Cloud's books and materials. He maintained that he was right in publicly mentioning a good man's name from the pulpit. He even went so far as to say that he realizes the man is a good pastor and pastors a good church, but because he preached at the Sword Conference, he deserved to have his name publicly mentioned in his warning.

Can someone show me Scripture to show Cloud is not stepping out of bounds, here? I don't think so.... I think he needs to be careful before God starts sticking up for some of His Pastors.

You seem to be asking if there is a clear line on these matters and that seems to be part of the problem, that there are no clear lines with regards to some of these things.

Should a sound pastor who has a sound church be publically condemned because he preaches at another church, or convention, or gathering that may not be acceptable to all others?

Our associate pastor faced this when he was asked to preach in a Methodist church in a town with only a hundred or so people living there. Eventually the question came down to a matter, for him, of whether or not he was free to preach without restrictions. Once informed there would be no restrictions on his preaching, our associate pastor decided (after much prayer, consultation with our pastor and church board) that for some at that church this might be their only opportuntiy to actually hear a clear presentation of the Gospel so he accepted to preach that one Sunday. He was able to present a biblically sound sermon and clearly present the only way of salvation.

Should our associate pastor be condemned for preaching in a Methodist church one Sunday or should we praise God for the opportunity he had to share the Gospel with many who may have never heard the biblical Gospel before? In this particular case I believe our associate pastor did the right thing.

That said, I don't believe every invitation to preach in any church should be accepted. This is one of those areas where I believe it's more of a border area rather than a simple line. Some churches require advance approval of a sermon before it's preached in their church. Some churches place restrictions or requirements upon a pastor. Some churches are in clear violation in any number of areas and preaching in them would attach ones name to some of these matters. Etc. I believe in some cases a sound preacher can preach in other venues and should not be condemned for such. There are also cases where a sound preacher should not be preaching, and most sound preachers can recognize this.

So, if someone with some association with the Sword is involved in something some have problems with, does that mean everyone else associated with the Sword in any way should be considered tainted, in need of public rebuke, or such?

If we follow the rigid line some draw, that would mean none of us would ever be able to venture outside our own churches without risk of being condemned by even a hint of association.

We have to guard against many things, but in doing so we also have to guard against friendly fire. Sometimes it seems we are too willing to accept friendly fire and the collateral damage it causes rather than trying to prevent such from occuring.
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He maintained that he was right in publicly mentioning a good man's name from the pulpit. He even went so far as to say that he realizes the man is a good pastor and pastors a good church, but because he preached at the Sword Conference, he deserved to have his name publicly mentioned in his warning.

Can someone show me Scripture to show Cloud is not stepping out of bounds, here? I don't think so.... I think he needs to be careful before God starts sticking up for some of His Pastors.


I don't know why this should be a problem. If the man is willing to speak there than that is a public thing and if cloud or anyone else does or doesn't like that they are free to say so. It is that pastors call about whether or not to preach there, it is clouds call about whether or not to condemn it, and anyone can make their own call about whether or not such a thing matters to them. No big deal.
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I am surprised that so many here agree with Mr. Cloud, and take his words as gospel! Isn't it that same thing that he accuses the other churches of? Ironic, osn't it.

I have read many of his posts and given scriptural answers to his false teachings. His terms "easy believism" and easy prayism" leave the Lord out of the work. Only God knows a man's heart, not Mr. Cloud. Where does the Bible say we have to have a "hard prayer"? Or a long, bible study type prayer to lead someone to the Lord?

He also has a strange idea of repentance, as we have already hashed out on previous posts. Go ahead and exalt him as the high and mighty poo-pah and form your opinions by his words instead of God's Word, and let's see how it turn out.

I believe that when he runs out of edifying and useful thoughts, he finds someone to pick on, which makes him look better too. By the way, saying "you have not read my books" is a great plug for the selling of his books. Not a bad ploy for making a buck.

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I don't know why this should be a problem. If the man is willing to speak there than that is a public thing and if cloud or anyone else does or doesn't like that they are free to say so. It is that pastors call about whether or not to preach there, it is clouds call about whether or not to condemn it, and anyone can make their own call about whether or not such a thing matters to them. No big deal.

If Cloud were just another person I would agree, no big deal, but Cloud says he's been called to have a "warning ministry" and he has a significant outreach. That makes it a "big deal" in the sense it's more than just someone with an opinion, it's another ministry claiming it's their duty to call out these people.

While I sometimes agree with Cloud, I've noticed he becomes very defensive when someone confronts him on some aspects of his ministry. Oftentimes he even becomes defensive when asked rather simple questions.

If someone is outright, clearly biblically wrong, then point that out, put forth the Scripture which clearly addresses this, and leave it at that.

The problem is, Cloud often engages in much more and he often draws a very wide circle of "association" which he uses to name more names or strike at.
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Oh, I agree, just seems like what was said above, that more and more churches will continue to fall away and the number of "right" churches will diminish.

My old church back in SW MO quit "associating" with BBFI years ago because of their falling away. Even the "school" my former pastor went to apparently has been slipping away as well. He went there in the mid-80's, he and others that I've met that went to this particular school said that looking back they could see the "beginnings" of the falling away from Biblical standards and toward worldliness. My former pastor would not attend that school in its current state.

Although I like the preaching of one particular preacher up here in a big city IFB church, he has attended the Lancaster Leadership conference more than once to preach there, and also has some of Mr. Chappell's books on display in his church.


I may have to write and ask Bro. Cloud what position he takes on the FBF and FBFI.

Edited to add...

The reason for my interest is I know more preachers who were in the FBF and FBFI from the 80s and 90s. Edited by 1Tim115
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To me the question is this: "Is a ministry of warning" Biblical.

It is the job of the pastor to warn his own sheep, not the sheep of another shepherd. The only thing we see in Scripture is to name names when it comes to heretical teaching. I have no issues with anyone calling out heresy, but it is not the responsibility of David Cloud to "warn" me. My pastor does a very good job at taking care of that through his preaching and teaching.

I would much rather a man take a stand on what he believes and publish that

What David Cloud does is unbiblical.

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To me the question is this: "Is a ministry of warning" Biblical.

It is the job of the pastor to warn his own sheep, not the sheep of another shepherd. The only thing we see in Scripture is to name names when it comes to heretical teaching. I have no issues with anyone calling out heresy, but it is not the responsibility of David Cloud to "warn" me. My pastor does a very good job at taking care of that through his preaching and teaching.

I would much rather a man take a stand on what he believes and publish that

What David Cloud does is unbiblical.

I've asked this question before and was attacked and called all sorts of things.
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To me the question is this: "Is a ministry of warning" Biblical.

It is the job of the pastor to warn his own sheep, not the sheep of another shepherd. The only thing we see in Scripture is to name names when it comes to heretical teaching. I have no issues with anyone calling out heresy, but it is not the responsibility of David Cloud to "warn" me. My pastor does a very good job at taking care of that through his preaching and teaching.

I would much rather a man take a stand on what he believes and publish that

What David Cloud does is unbiblical.


Thank you PastorJ. My point exactly.

I've really liked David Cloud in the past but I think he has overstepped his bounds and he's begun to criticize things that are none of his business, and to criticize men that he has no business criticizing.

Frankly, who preaches at the Sword Conference has NOTHING. TO. DO. With our local church. Its nothing but preacher-gossip!

And for Cloud to say "Well I know your pastor is a good man who has a good church BUT I was still right in calling him out." Really???? Did GOD tell you that or something? Because God says to "touch not God's anointed" and "Do my prophet no harm". I realize that's OT but still, God will protect a man of God who is right with Him. Call out a heretic? Yeah. Call out someone who preached in a church you wouldn't preach in? (And we're not talking Mormon or cult, we're talking Independent Baptist!!!!!) No way. I don't see God as pleased with this in the least.

Not happy with Cloud right now. Its none of Cloud's business where an INDEPENDENT pastor preaches and its none of anybody else's business, either, saving for that man's local church, and God.
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I've asked this question before and was attacked and called all sorts of things.


I want to say if I was one of those...then....I seriously apologize. There was one time I felt David Cloud was awesome. Since then I'm really unhappy with how far he takes this "warning" thing. Its like NOTHING in IFB pleases him anymore. Its getting a little ridiculous.
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