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What do they need to know about Heaven and Hell, that they don't already know? Hell, or more accurately, the Lake of Fire=eternal punishment and separation from God. They know this. Heaven(or more accurately the New Earth and Heaven, etc.)= being with God. What else do they need to know?


Well, Joshua, you later stated that most times, while people might believe in a place called Heaven or Hell, they don't really know what the Bible teaches about it. This is precisely why I believe it is absolutely essential in any gospel presentation.
I believe a lost sinner must understand just exactly how bad sin really is, and how disgusting it makes us look in God's sight.
I believe a lost sinner must understand just exactly what is coming their way if they reject Christ. God's love is found at Calvary. If they reject Christ, they are NOT separated from God - that statement is not in the Bible. Instead, they get God's wrath.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Jesus Christ bore the wrath of God on Calvary in our place:
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus Christ experienced every description of Hell on Calvary.
He thirsted; it was dark; He was in great pain and agony; and God the Father would not hear His cries for deliverance.
God the Father was present - He is omni-present (God is present at every point in the universe.)
The difference is that when God's judgment on sin falls on a lost sinner in Hell, God the Father will not have mercy THEN - it is too late THEN.


When we don't give the lost sinner a clear picture of what the future holds, it gives them a false sense of security. If sin is not portrayed properly, then they can easily be misled into thinking that their sin is not quite so bad, and that God will let them get by anyway.
If Hell is not taught properly, then they can easily be misled into thinking that even by some sheer accident that they land there, it won't be quite so bad as what they thought.
There was a time in this country when people TREMBLED in GREAT FEAR for their own souls because sin was made to be sin, and Hell was preached real "hot and heavy."
We focus too much on the positive - God's love at Calvary - but we soft-soap the negative - God's wrath poured out on sin at Calvary. We side-step sin and Hell because it makes too many people uncomfortable, and we can't pad our "numbers" quite so easily. It is too easy to get people to "repeat after me" or "ask Jesus to change your life" or any other number of unScriptural things.
But when we start pressing home how horrible ANY sin is in God's sight, God's absolute righteousness, God's perfect judgment, and eternal torment in Hell for ONE SIN - well now, people start running for the hills (or out here in the desert, they run for the nearest cactus!!!)

Personally I like to use this verse because it illustrates God's judgment on "big sins" AND "little sins."
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If they listen, and truly believe in Jesus Christ to save them from that awful place - well now, you end up with a NEW CREATURE who forsakes his past, and embraces true, Bible-Believing Christianity - which is what we are really after anyway!

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Just to be clear, I am not trying to make salvation difficult. All I am advocating here is a thorough presentation of the gospel.

Sin, Death, Judgment, Hell,

Then

The Substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ in our place.

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There is a world of difference Biblically between being in God's presence (God is omnipresent, after all) and being separated from Him. Death is separation. Hell is referred to as the second death.

Our sins have already separated us from God. Isaiah 59:2.

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My point is that we lessen the severity of Hell by saying that it is "separation from God."
It isn't.

Ps 139:7 ¶ Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Hell is God's wrath poured out on sin, and those defiled by sin.
If we don't make that connection for the sinner, they have really no idea as to why Hell even exists.

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psalms 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Jesus Christ is our substitute. God's wrath was poured out on Sin at Calvary. Jesus Christ suffered all the horrors of Hell on the Cross.

I just think it brings a fuller understanding of all the issues at stake when we show a lost sinner how to be saved from the Bible.

The point is not to "scare" them into making a decision. The point is to help them realize just how much God really hates sin, and what punishment is in store for the lost sinner who rejects Jesus Christ.

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We lessen the severity of hell by saying it is separation from God? No, you lessen the Word of God by denying what it teaches in favour of whatever theory you came up with.

The Bible teaches the lost are far off from God, dwelling apart/away from His presence - as they are already now. The difference is that now the Holy Spirit is still doing His work of conviction of sins, therefore has not completely left man alone - like the Father did with the son on the cross (my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me); however, if a man rejects the work of Christ, when he dies he will be eternally separated from God, eternally forsaken of Him, with no remedy. Trying to water that down doesn't change the truth.

Edited by Jerry

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My point is that we lessen the severity of Hell by saying that it is "separation from God."
It isn't.

Ps 139:7 ¶ Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Hell is God's wrath poured out on sin, and those defiled by sin.
If we don't make that connection for the sinner, they have really no idea as to why Hell even exists.

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psalms 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Jesus Christ is our substitute. God's wrath was poured out on Sin at Calvary. Jesus Christ suffered all the horrors of Hell on the Cross.

I just think it brings a fuller understanding of all the issues at stake when we show a lost sinner how to be saved from the Bible.

The point is not to "scare" them into making a decision. The point is to help them realize just how much God really hates sin, and what punishment is in store for the lost sinner who rejects Jesus Christ.


One woman who about 60 has spent most of her life in a fallen state, states about getting saved as a teenager, "I got scared of going to hell, that scare the hell out of me,I quickly accepted Jesus as Savior, I called on Him like the publican, Save me Jesus, a sinner!"

I don't know if she is saved or not, I leave that judgment to Jesus, but when fallen out of church, she lives the life that brings the old Devil much glory.

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The Bible clearly teaches that even in this life, though the Lord God is omnipresent, we (ie. mankind) are not always dwelling in His presence.

Genesis 3:8; 4:16**
Exodus 33:14-15
Leviticus 22:3
Job 1:12; 2:7 - the fallen angels were not even always in God's presence. Satan was only there at specific times.
Psalm 16:11; 31:20; 51:11; 100:2; 140:13
Jeremiah 23:39**
Jonah 1:3, 10
Luke 1:19
Jude 1:24

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I understand your reluctance to consider my view point on this issue. I was taught as a youngster that Hell was eternal separation from God....and it is in the sense that lost souls in Hell will never enjoy the LOVE of God. They will never be able to worship God in Holiness, righteousness, and truth, and the rest of the saved people and angelic creatures will. They are lost, and they are not in the physical presence of God at His throne....
Yep - I get that.

But that does not diminish my point either.

Hell is more than just "separation from God." It is PUNISHMENT for crimes committed against a Holy God.
The verses I gave above clearly demonstrate that Hell is God's wrath poured out on sin.

Too many people have twisted this whole "separation from God" thing into something it isn't. And they make it out to be the worst thing about Hell. I've got knews for you...it isn't even in the top 10. If you read Luke 16 carefully, the rich man in Hell wasn't crying about being "separated from God." It isn't even mentioned in the passage. He was being "tormented in this flame."

You see, a lost sinner who stubbornly rejects the gospel of Jesus Christ really doesn't want fellowship with God anyway, so how can "separation from God" be any sort of a punishment or threat in their mind? It isn't - because they don't want to be with God in the first place.

But when you show a lost sinner just how much God hates sin, and how much they will suffer for their sin, in torment, pain, agony; and how they will fall under God's wrath....well, now they have something to think about. They can try to dismiss it all they want....but judgment day is coming.

The old time preachers understood this, if you go back and read the sermons from the 1700-1800's. It wasn't until the modernists and liberals infiltrated our schools and churchs in the 1900's that we started with this "separation from God" bit. Jonathan Edwards' classic "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" comes to mind.

God's love is demonstrated at Calvary - John 3:16.
If anyone wants in on God's love, they must go to Calvary to get it - and not anywhere else.

BUT WAIT!

Love is only side of the coin. When you turn that coin over, you don't find "separation," you find "wrath."
Love-Wrath NOT Love-Separation

Show me the verses that clearly demonstrates and STATES that Hell is eternal separation from God.
The doctrine of Hell is not about loss of fellowship (i.e. the separation from God that sin brings), but the lost sinner's doom for crimes committed against a Holy, Righteous God.

Here are my verses:

Re 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. (NOTE: Kindled...like a FIRE is kindled!!!)

Psalms 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
NOTE: Love is contrasted with WRATH - not separation!

Remember that LOVE/HATE thing I mentioned??? Here it is:
Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Psalms 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Psalms 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Psalms 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
Psalms 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Edited by Steve Schwenke

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Just a thought.

And I fail to understand why those who ignore Jesus' Churches, because they do not enjoy fellow shipping with believers, supporting one of His Churches & the missions its been given, sing songs about Jesus, studying about Jesus, hearing preaching about Jesus, would want to go to Heaven. It would seem there's nothing in Heaven that would interest them if churches services doesn't.

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It isn't either/or - and who are you to determine which one is more important? The Bible teaches Hell/lake of fire is the second death, and death means separation. Separation from what? God.

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It isn't either/or - and who are you to determine which one is more important? The Bible teaches Hell/lake of fire is the second death, and death means separation. Separation from what? God.

I think the point Steve is trying to make is that yes, there will be separation from God in Hell/Lake of fire, but it's not ONLY separation, there is also eternal torment.

While it's true there will be separation from God in Hell, there are many who only teach that aspect, never upon the torment aspect of Hell. There are some who teach that Hell is ONLY the separation from God, that there is no eternal torment.

The problem with only mentioning the separation from God portion is that with so much false teaching on this matter today, many will have the impression that is the only consequence of going to Hell. For those who are separated from God now (in their view anyway) that's not a big deal. This is why we need to be careful not to only say that Hell is separation from God, which is only part of the story, but also the fact Hell is a place of eternal torment.

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It isn't either/or - and who are you to determine which one is more important? The Bible teaches Hell/lake of fire is the second death, and death means separation. Separation from what? God.

Jerry, I gave you several verses to show you how and why I came to the conclusions I have.
If you disagree, that is your perogative.
However, I would appreciate it if you could show us from Scripture how my position is incorrect.
And then, give us some Scripture that clearly defines Hell as "separation from God."

Thanks!

IN Christ,

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I think the point Steve is trying to make is that yes, there will be separation from God in Hell/Lake of fire, but it's not ONLY separation, there is also eternal torment.

While it's true there will be separation from God in Hell, there are many who only teach that aspect, never upon the torment aspect of Hell. There are some who teach that Hell is ONLY the separation from God, that there is no eternal torment.

The problem with only mentioning the separation from God portion is that with so much false teaching on this matter today, many will have the impression that is the only consequence of going to Hell. For those who are separated from God now (in their view anyway) that's not a big deal. This is why we need to be careful not to only say that Hell is separation from God, which is only part of the story, but also the fact Hell is a place of eternal torment.

Yes! Thank you for clarifying my muddled posts!

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In earlier posts, he quite clearly denies that Hell is separation from God.

I already gave several posts and verses showing what I believe the Bible teaches about separation from God. There may be others, but I no longer have a computer with a good Bible program, so can't dig deeper right now to find more passages beyond what I've mentioned.

I didn't come back to these boards for endless debates - that is part of why I left in the first place. If you believe there is actual separation from God for the lost soul, I agree - I'm not going to debate how much or how important that is in the overall description of Hell. If you deny this truth, then you're dead wrong, and I've got nothing to prove so I will leave it at that.

Edited by Jerry

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Jerry, the verses you gave about separation from God have nothing to do with Eternal Punishment in Hell. Those verses all have to do with the ability to FELLOWSHIP with God.
If you take such a strong, adamant position on a subject, you should not have to "dig deeper" to prove it - you should have a ready defense for it. Even if you can't "cut and paste" the verses, you could at least give us the references.....

Hell is MORE than a mere "separation from God." It is God's wrath poured out on sin.
The verses you listed earier do not deal with the subject of HELL.
If I could please, allow me to encourage you to do a thorough study of the subject of Hell from Genesis to Revelation, and see what you come up with. Don't read any of your current understandings into any of the verses....let them speak for themselves.
STudy God's wrath.

There are two sides to this issue, but they are on the same coin. You have one side of the coin, but are not willing to turn that coin over and look at the other side of it.

Moving on....

IN Christ,

Edited by Steve Schwenke

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Guest Joshua Berndt

Unfortunately, many people (I dare say - the majority of people) don't have a clue as to what hell and the lake of fire truly are. The average person, if they are familiar with hell, think that it's where the devil lives, and only "bad people" go there...both of which are not true.
  1. Satan is not now in hell...nor will he ever be.
  2. To believe that only "bad people" go to hell is both true and false; it's misleading, because it leads one to believe that "good people" go to heaven...and there is none good, no not one. However, to be satisfied that you're a "good person" compared to someone else will give you a false assurance of entering heaven.




But I don't need to educate them on the details of Heaven/New Earth or Hell. When you give them, for instance, the Roman's Road, it can be used to convict them. I don't have to tell them all the details of each location. Or am I misunderstanding what you mean? They know of Hell, most of them, and they think their good works will save them from that place, but then when you start throwing Romans verses and Ephesians 2:8-9, that breaks their confidence in their own merit. It can, if God wills it. I am not saying it always will cause immediately noticeable conviction, but if God is working on them, they will be convicted.

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Guest Joshua Berndt

That is most certainty true, most have the wrong idea about both Heaven & Hell, even many who have attended church services.

I know of several that believes there is no hell, & God loves everyone, & would not dare send a single soul to hell. One person even told me that God loves for people to sin so that He can offer His mercy & grace.

And others that believes Hell is reserved only for people like Hitler.

And one thing a person should try & be sure of, is it explain it properly so that person will not gain a false hope in place of the real 'Blessed Hope.'


Maybe you might give those people who want to sin and claim to be Christians, Romans chapter 6. This was covered way back then. :godisgood:

Yes, I too have heard/read the Hell for only Hitler type of argument. Not true. What if Hitler repented at the last? How can we know? I do believe in degrees of punishment in Hell. I believe that "nice, old nuns" and others like that will receive great punishment, for they were liars, who spread false hope.

I don't think I ever try to explain much of anything in my own words, when witnessing. At least I try not to. That is what scripture is for. Give them scripture. They don't need my words. Edited by Joshua Berndt

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Guest Joshua Berndt

Mine(Joshua) in rich, black font.


Well, Joshua, you later stated that most times, while people might believe in a place called Heaven or Hell, they don't really know what the Bible teaches about it. That was someone else.

If they reject Christ, they are NOT separated from God - that statement is not in the Bible. Instead, they get God's wrath. They receive both. For Christians: We are confident, [i say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV The unsaved are not so, but are forever separated from God in the Lake of Fire, eventually. Isaiah 59 speaks of separation from God because of iniquities. Now the eternally damned will never have their iniquities forgiven, neither will they know of the way.


Jesus Christ experienced every description of Hell on Calvary.
He thirsted; it was dark; He was in great pain and agony; and God the Father would not hear His cries for deliverance.
My Lord did not beg to be delivered. He did never ask for anything outside the Father's will. When Peter spoke of not going to the cross, Jesus Christ countered him. Can it then be said that he did the same as Peter and wanted out? No. It was always God's will.

Give them scripture and let it convince them of sin and Hell and the Savior.

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Guest Joshua Berndt

Just to be clear, I am not trying to make salvation difficult. All I am advocating here is a thorough presentation of the gospel.

Sin, Death, Judgment, Hell,

Then

The Substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ in our place.


O.K. Thanks. :biggrin: Most of the people I talk to know of Heaven and Hell. I don't care to educate them as to the specifics. If I give them the Roman's Road and Ephesians 2:8-9, that can convince them that they are sinners in need of Christ.

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If you lead them down the Roman Road properly, they will know about Hell. They will know what the penalty for being a sinner will be, as well as some other things. Of course, its only if you properly describe it to them as you lead them down that road. But if you make it as easy as it is to read A,B,C, more than likely they will not fully understand.

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Guest Joshua Berndt


Too many people have twisted this whole "separation from God" thing into something it isn't. And they make it out to be the worst thing about Hell. I've got knews for you...it isn't even in the top 10. If you read Luke 16 carefully, the rich man in Hell wasn't crying about being "separated from God." It isn't even mentioned in the passage. He was being "tormented in this flame."

You see, a lost sinner who stubbornly rejects the gospel of Jesus Christ really doesn't want fellowship with God anyway, so how can "separation from God" be any sort of a punishment or threat in their mind? It isn't - because they don't want to be with God in the first place.


He doesn't mention what he's never had. If you study about the Pharaoh of Moses' time, and read Romans 9, you will read that God gives grace, even to the unsaved, so that they are not harder than they might be. When in eternal torment, they will have no grace at all.

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But I don't need to educate them on the details of Heaven/New Earth or Hell. When you give them, for instance, the Roman's Road, it can be used to convict them. I don't have to tell them all the details of each location. Or am I misunderstanding what you mean? They know of Hell, most of them, and they think their good works will save them from that place, but then when you start throwing Romans verses and Ephesians 2:8-9, that breaks their confidence in their own merit. It can, if God wills it. I am not saying it always will cause immediately noticeable conviction, but if God is working on them, they will be convicted.


Hi Joshua,

My whole point of starting this thread was to shed light on how some "present the gospel"...without actually presenting the gospel! As far as explaining hell, perhaps where you live, people have the correct view of hell, but trust me...MANY don't! Many people think if they go to hell (if they even admit that they accept and believe there is a hell), they'll be there with their friends.

I agree with you that the word of God does the convicting; however, when one presents a plan of salvation (such as the ABC method in this thread) that on the surface #1 - isn't biblical...#2 - uses NO Bible to "prove" their points...and #3 - doesn't even try to expound on their points in order to explain their points, they are presenting a false gospel.

A - Admit that you're a sinner

(Okay, I can agree with that...but why am I a sinner?...What's the problem with me being a sinner?...What are the consequences of me being a sinner?...WHY do I need to realize that I'm a sinner?)

B - Believe that Jesus is God's own Son

(That's not mentioned as a prerequisite to being saved anywhere in the Bible! Satan knows that Jesus is God's Son, and the demons do too. MANY lost people believe that Jesus is the Son of God, yet they will burn eternally in the lake of fire.)

C - Confess your sins to him

(Again, that's not mentioned as a prerequisite to being saved anywhere in the Bible! However, we are told to confess our sins AFTER we're saved.)

I agree that God can use a tract that has Bible verses to save someone, yet there are those who will read the verses and not have a clue what they're talking about. Remember the Ethiopian eunuch? He was reading God's word, but he needed Philip to explain it to him.

I don't know anyone who witnesses...presents God's word...and doesn't expound upon it at all. There may be some, but I don't know anyone personally who does this. I don't know any preacher who gets up and preaches only Bible verses without expounding on those verses...Well, Raymond Barber comes close...he will quote verse after verse, but he eventually gets to the point of expounding. Paul didn't, Peter didn't,...even Jesus didn't.

Instead of coming up with some nifty sounding jingle that sounds neat...but won't save anyone. GIVE THEM THE GOSPEL!!!


1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Where's the aforementioned ABC method in that?

Here's an ABC method that would work...but you would still need to explain it to people...using scriptures!

A - Admit that you're a sinner (but explain why...the consequences...etc...)
B - Believe in your heart that Jesus died for your sins, was buried, and rose again the third day (explain it!)
C - Confess Jesus as Lord and Call on the name of the Lord to be saved (explain it)

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Guest Joshua Berndt

Mine(Joshua) in Comic Sans 14, bold and italicized. I will write my words within your's to preserve context.


Hi Joshua,

My whole point of starting this thread was to shed light on how some "present the gospel"...without actually presenting the gospel! As far as explaining hell, perhaps where you live, people have the correct view of hell, but trust me...MANY don't! Many people think if they go to hell (if they even admit that they accept and believe there is a hell), they'll be there with their friends. Their view of Hell is not important. Thinking Hell is cool is not going to cause them to go there or keep them from going. I don't need to address each and every issue, to correct them. The Romans's Road and Ephesians 2:8-9, for instance, can be used to convict them, regardless of their view of Hell.

I agree with you that the word of God does the convicting; however, when one presents a plan of salvation (such as the ABC method in this thread) that on the surface #1 - isn't biblical...#2 - uses NO Bible to "prove" their points...and #3 - doesn't even try to expound on their points in order to explain their points, they are presenting a false gospel.

A - Admit that you're a sinner

(Okay, I can agree with that...but why am I a sinner?...What's the problem with me being a sinner?...What are the consequences of me being a sinner?...WHY do I need to realize that I'm a sinner?) The Roman's Road and Ephesians 2:8-9, for instance, answer these questions. I am not saying that a person must use only those verses or some such. I am just saying that we should use scripture, and not pontificate with our own words or blah blah blah on and on, thinking that we will convert them. Let scripture work.

B - Believe that Jesus is God's own Son

(That's not mentioned as a prerequisite to being saved anywhere in the Bible! Satan knows that Jesus is God's Son, and the demons do too. MANY lost people believe that Jesus is the Son of God, yet they will burn eternally in the lake of fire.) I disagree. John 3:16 teaches otherwise. If we believe he was merely a prophet(as the muslim will claim), what is that?

C - Confess your sins to him

(Again, that's not mentioned as a prerequisite to being saved anywhere in the Bible! However, we are told to confess our sins AFTER we're saved.)

I agree that God can use a tract that has Bible verses to save someone, yet there are those who will read the verses and not have a clue what they're talking about. Remember the Ethiopian eunuch? He was reading God's word, but he needed Philip to explain it to him. If scripture doesn't work to save them, your words will not. Think about it. What has more power? Scripture or your words? So I keep my words to a minimum(I try.).

I don't know anyone who witnesses...presents God's word...and doesn't expound upon it at all. There may be some, but I don't know anyone personally who does this. I don't mind expounding, with scripture. There is absolutely zero need for me to use my own words. God's Word will do it. I don't know any preacher who gets up and preaches only Bible verses without expounding on those verses...Well, Raymond Barber comes close...he will quote verse after verse, but he eventually gets to the point of expounding. Pastors have a different setting. They are speaking to those who are already saved. Paul didn't, Peter didn't,...even Jesus didn't. All their words recorded WERE scripture.

Instead of coming up with some nifty sounding jingle that sounds neat...but won't save anyone. GIVE THEM THE GOSPEL!!!


1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Where's the aforementioned ABC method in that?

Here's an ABC method that would work...but you would still need to explain it to people...using scriptures!

A - Admit that you're a sinner (but explain why...the consequences...etc...)
B - Believe in your heart that Jesus died for your sins, was buried, and rose again the third day (explain it!)
C - Confess Jesus as Lord and Call on the name of the Lord to be saved (explain it) Confess Jesus as Lord? That is not a part of salvation. I was saved as a child, 3 1/2, and I did not confess him as Lord. He was my Savior. Many years later, when I had grown more in spiritual maturity, I told God that I wanted Him to have me do His will. I wanted His will for my life and in everyday life. But that came much after salvation and through maturity. You keep saying, "explain it." Why? You have no need to explain anything to them, at least not in your own words. Give them scripture; expound with scripture.

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Mine(Joshua) in Comic Sans 14, bold and italicized. I will write my words within your's to preserve context.

Your point regarding hell is absolutely incorrect. I've encountered many who have no fear of hell, who think hell will be a place to hang out for eternity with their friends drinking beer and sinning all they want. Before I was saved, and I learned the truth of hell before I was saved, I thought similar of hell and was purposefully wanting to go there with the false idea in my head that my friends would need me to be with them to help protect them from some of the really bad people in hell (what foolish, totally unbiblical and misleading things the lost...and even some Christians...believe!).

For many, it's very important to know the reality of hell before they will be open to the Gospel.

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Mine(Joshua) in Comic Sans 14, bold and italicized. I will write my words within your's to preserve context.


Okay...this will be my last post in this thread. I didn't foresee that the thread would become a debate. To me, it's obvious that the ABC method that prompted me to start the thread isn't biblical.

Here's our last conversation...I will put my final comments in blue...
Hi Joshua,

My whole point of starting this thread was to shed light on how some "present the gospel"...without actually presenting the gospel! As far as explaining hell, perhaps where you live, people have the correct view of hell, but trust me...MANY don't! Many people think if they go to hell (if they even admit that they accept and believe there is a hell), they'll be there with their friends. Their view of Hell is not important. Thinking Hell is cool is not going to cause them to go there or keep them from going. I don't need to address each and every issue, to correct them. The Romans's Road and Ephesians 2:8-9, for instance, can be used to convict them, regardless of their view of Hell.

Okay, I understand that you see no need to bring up hell (I don't agree with you), but I see. Unfortunately, the Romans Road, nor Ephesians 2:8-9 even mentions hell. That is where a person will go if they aren't saved, and they will remain there until the Great White Throne Judgment; where they will then be cast into the lake of fire. The Romans Road does say that "the wages of sin is death", and being cast into the lake of fire is the second death (Revelation 21:8). Do you not tell them this, or do you leave it at "the wages of sin is death"?

I agree with you that the word of God does the convicting; however, when one presents a plan of salvation (such as the ABC method in this thread) that on the surface #1 - isn't biblical...#2 - uses NO Bible to "prove" their points...and #3 - doesn't even try to expound on their points in order to explain their points, they are presenting a false gospel.

A - Admit that you're a sinner

(Okay, I can agree with that...but why am I a sinner?...What's the problem with me being a sinner?...What are the consequences of me being a sinner?...WHY do I need to realize that I'm a sinner?) The Roman's Road and Ephesians 2:8-9, for instance, answer these questions. I am not saying that a person must use only those verses or some such. I am just saying that we should use scripture, and not pontificate with our own words or blah blah blah on and on, thinking that we will convert them. Let scripture work

I never said that we have to pontificate, blah, blah, blah, and go on-and-on. I regret you chose to use such wording...I've tried to act as a Christian gentleman in my responses to you. I haven't once attacked you or talked down to you. You're correct, the Romans Road does say "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"; are you saying that you never expound on that...do the people never ask you questions, and you have to explain more to them? I also don't think, in my explaining, that I'm the one doing the converting.

B - Believe that Jesus is God's own Son

(That's not mentioned as a prerequisite to being saved anywhere in the Bible! Satan knows that Jesus is God's Son, and the demons do too. MANY lost people believe that Jesus is the Son of God, yet they will burn eternally in the lake of fire.) I disagree. John 3:16 teaches otherwise. If we believe he was merely a prophet(as the muslim will claim), what is that?

I understand why you think John 3:16 teaches that, but let's look at what it says...
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It doesn't say...
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth that he is the Son of God should not perish, but have everlasting life.

A person must believe in HIM. I think a person who gets saved will naturally accept and believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but that's still not a prerequisite to salvation.

C - Confess your sins to him

(Again, that's not mentioned as a prerequisite to being saved anywhere in the Bible! However, we are told to confess our sins AFTER we're saved.)

I agree that God can use a tract that has Bible verses to save someone, yet there are those who will read the verses and not have a clue what they're talking about. Remember the Ethiopian eunuch? He was reading God's word, but he needed Philip to explain it to him. If scripture doesn't work to save them, your words will not. Think about it. What has more power? Scripture or your words? So I keep my words to a minimum(I try.).

See, even you admit that you explain some. Of course scripture has the power...still the eunuch needed Philip to explain the scriptures to him. Sounds like Philip's words helped the eunuch understand...you can't argue with that Joshua.

I don't know anyone who witnesses...presents God's word...and doesn't expound upon it at all. There may be some, but I don't know anyone personally who does this. I don't mind expounding, with scripture. There is absolutely zero need for me to use my own words. God's Word will do it.

You've already admitted that you explain some. Again I ask, do none of the people that you witness to ask you questions?

I don't know any preacher who gets up and preaches only Bible verses without expounding on those verses...Well, Raymond Barber comes close...he will quote verse after verse, but he eventually gets to the point of expounding. Pastors have a different setting. They are speaking to those who are already saved.

Then why do Pastors preach salvation messages?

Paul didn't, Peter didn't,...even Jesus didn't. All their words recorded WERE scripture.

You're correct, but you miss the point. They didn't get up and preach to the hearers and only quote Old Testament scripture.

Instead of coming up with some nifty sounding jingle that sounds neat...but won't save anyone. GIVE THEM THE GOSPEL!!!


1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Where's the aforementioned ABC method in that?

Here's an ABC method that would work...but you would still need to explain it to people...using scriptures!

A - Admit that you're a sinner (but explain why...the consequences...etc...)
B - Believe in your heart that Jesus died for your sins, was buried, and rose again the third day (explain it!)
C - Confess Jesus as Lord and Call on the name of the Lord to be saved (explain it) Confess Jesus as Lord? That is not a part of salvation.

You mention using the Romans Road, but you say that "confess Jesus as Lord isn't part of salvation?

Romans 10:8-10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I was saved as a child, 3 1/2, and I did not confess him as Lord. He was my Savior. Many years later, when I had grown more in spiritual maturity, I told God that I wanted Him to have me do His will. I wanted His will for my life and in everyday life. But that came much after salvation and through maturity.

Our experience doesn't negate or over-ride the word of God. That's the problem with Charismatics; they put experience over scripture. I'm not saying that you weren't saved then, because I don't know. Perhaps in the heart and mind of a 3 1/2 year old, coupled with what understanding you had then, you did confess him as Lord...after all, only the Lord can save.

You keep saying, "explain it." Why? You have no need to explain anything to them, at least not in your own words. Give them scripture; expound with scripture.

Acts 8:29-31
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.


As I said, this thread was started to shine a light on a method that isn't biblical. The pastor who uses it...doesn't use scripture (I put that in bold for you Joshua) to show what he's saying is true, nor does he even try to explain his points.

I didn't intend to debate Joshua or anyone else; therefore, I'll no longer post in this thread. Joshua, if you want to have the last word, feel free...I hope the Lord gives you a good day. :) Edited by No Nicolaitans

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