Majesty Music And Getty

[Micha-el]

Running the risk of serious thread hijack ...

 

Regarding the alcohol question, here's just one little verse for you (okay two). Please read Isaiah 1, particularly verse 22 (21 included for a teeny bit of extra context):

 

 

 

21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:

 

.. or if you want to use the Extra Sanctified Version (1611) http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Isaiah_1_1611/:

 

21 ¶ Howe is the faithfull citie become an harlot? it was full of iudgement, righteousnesse lodged in it; but now murtherers.

22 Thy siluer is become drosse, thy wine mixt with water.

[side note: if you're not using this version then you're using a contemporary adaptation of the original and you know what that means ... ]

 

Interesting, isn't it, how God uses the concept of diluting wine to illustrate how Really Bad™ Jerusalem has become. Odd how I've never seen that verse mentioned in the anti-alcohol diatribes ... !

 

 

[John81]

Running the risk of serious thread hijack ...

 

Regarding the alcohol question, here's just one little verse for you (okay two). Please read Isaiah 1, particularly verse 22 (21 included for a teeny bit of extra context):

 

 

 

21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:

 

.. or if you want to use the Extra Sanctified Version (1611) http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Isaiah_1_1611/:

 

21 ¶ Howe is the faithfull citie become an harlot? it was full of iudgement, righteousnesse lodged in it; but now murtherers.

22 Thy siluer is become drosse, thy wine mixt with water.

[side note: if you're not using this version then you're using a contemporary adaptation of the original and you know what that means ... ]

 

Interesting, isn't it, how God uses the concept of diluting wine to illustrate how Really Bad™ Jerusalem has become. Odd how I've never seen that verse mentioned in the anti-alcohol diatribes ... !

I don't know that this is actually speaking to the issue of drinking alcohol. The point is that everything is corrupt in the city, even their silver and their wine is impure; nothing can be trusted.

[Steve Schwenke]

So, let me get this straight ... it's the music you don't like? And the music makes it wrong? Huh. What if I don't like organ music? What makes my liking wrong and your liking right? Incidentally, I actually like organ music, but we don't have an organ so we don't have that option.

 

To anyone else who would care to answer, I have another question: if you're so convinced of the "guilty by association" theology, could you please tell me how good a sinner has to be for you to associate with them? Will you only associate with sinners whose "worst" sin is pride?

You have come on pretty strong, but you know, there are a lot of arguments made on this thread that you have completely ignored, and instead simply lumped everything you don't like into the "guilt by association" basket.  Then to top that off, you ASSUME that anyone who makes these arguments against your position are filled with pride.

 

There is far too much information out there that conclusively demonstrates that rock music in any form is not only harmful physically, psychologically, and emotionally, but more importantly spiritually for me to take any argument that says that "music" is "amoral" and merely a "personal preference."

The reason why so many Christians balk at this subject and throw up their hands in abject confusion regarding what is right and what is wrong is very simple: THEY REFUSE TO STUDY THE SUBJECT.  They merely pretend they have studied, and throw out their pet verse on that appears to favor their side, and then claim "victory" by labeling any dissenter as "legalistic" or "Pharasaical."

 

Any music that will be pleasing to the Lord will be contrary to the world, the flesh, and the devil.  It will be suitable to the character of God, which demands holiness.  The very idea that a Holy, righteous, sinless God would somehow take pleasure in music that is by its very nature rebellious, sinful, and carnal is absurd.

 

Too many people stop their study of music in Psalm 150, and then carry this idea to illogical extremes, but fail to take into account the demands of God's character.  They fail to consider that any music offered to God as a sacrifice (Heb. 13:15!) must meet the requirements of God's holiness.  That is, there should not be any admixture of the leaven of SELF, FLESH, or the WORLD in it. 

 

Good day to ya, mate!

[Micha-el]

... Any music that will be pleasing to the Lord will be contrary to the world, the flesh, and the devil.  It will be suitable to the character of God, which demands holiness.  The very idea that a Holy, righteous, sinless God would somehow take pleasure in music that is by its very nature rebellious, sinful, and carnal is absurd.

 

Too many people stop their study of music in Psalm 150, and then carry this idea to illogical extremes, but fail to take into account the demands of God's character.  They fail to consider that any music offered to God as a sacrifice (Heb. 13:15!) must meet the requirements of God's holiness.  That is, there should not be any admixture of the leaven of SELF, FLESH, or the WORLD in it.

 

You know, that's a very interesting couple of statements. Could you maybe answer me some questions?

 

1. How much does your tradition and cultural history determine what you believe is acceptable to God?

 

2. Does your belief of what is acceptable to God apply to a tribe in the Amazon jungle? Why, or why not?

 

3. Would your standard of what music is acceptable to God be acceptable to the first century church? How about the second century? How about you tell me in which century would Christian believers have started to agree with your standard of acceptable music? I'll give you a hint: it's in the "teens".

 

4. Before your standard was acceptable, were Christians who sang and worshipped God doing it wrongly? Will they be told to be quiet in Heaven so you and your church can do it right?

 

5. Could you please explain for me what it would mean for there to be nothing of self, flesh or the world in the music that's used in church?

 

6. Do you feel joy when you take part in singing in church? Why? How does it make you feel when you think about people being joyous in worship in ways that don't line up with your standards?

 

7. Why is your standard the right one, and not mine?

 

8. What would you say to the Amazon tribesman, who is a Christian and visits your church, who HATES your music and thinks you need a bamboo flute and nothing else to worship God?

 

9. Is your overriding, overarching commitment to uphold your tradition, or is it to uphold a focus on God, on Christ and Him crucified, like Paul, to adapt to the culture he found himself in?

 

10. Are you starting to see things from a different point of view or are you going to continue to allow your traditions to determine your interpretation of Scripture?

 

I haven't ignored anything on this thread. I would like the "anti-CCM" people to consider things more deeply than I've seen so far. What I've seen here has reminded me of a lot of the bad things I remember about growing up in a Fundamentalist Baptist church in the USA.

 

Regards,

 

Michael.

[JerryNumbers]

All traditions are not wrong, so its not necessary to change all things.

 

We have to many that want change just for the sake of change, or should I say, to get their way. And many just don't know any better & loves to bring the world into churches.

[Micha-el]

That was a clumsy sideslip evasion of the real question.

 

What is your definition of "the world"?

 

Do you have any idea how sinful and worldly you appear to the Amish? Please outline why they're wrong and you're right.

[DaveW]

You, like the previous guy wish2bflying, have a combative attitude, which makes one not inclined to entertain your questions, and your accusations against anyone who does answer in any way, do not help that inclination.

It appears to me that your interest is in attacking any opposing, or even neutral view, rather than joining with a proper discussion.

[John81]

You, like the previous guy wish2bflying, have a combative attitude, which makes one not inclined to entertain your questions, and your accusations against anyone who does answer in any way, do not help that inclination.

It appears to me that your interest is in attacking any opposing, or even neutral view, rather than joining with a proper discussion.

You may be correct but the only reason such postings are possible is because there is no consistent standard with regards to music within Christianity. Actual born again Christians in different parts of the world, even in different parts of some nations, hold to different and even very different views with regards to music. The question as to what is a matter of liberty, personal preference, solid biblical grounds, traditions, etc., are up in the air.

 

While I don't know this persons motive, at least some of the questions are valid, but not likely to be resolved here any more than they have been resolved over the centuries by Christians holding various views; most all of which got their convictions from Scripture.

[JerryNumbers]

That was a clumsy sideslip evasion of the real question.

 

What is your definition of "the world"?

 

Do you have any idea how sinful and worldly you appear to the Amish? Please outline why they're wrong and you're right.

 

Not at all, you just need to study the Bible.

 

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

 

 

Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[JerryNumbers]

There is a standard for music in churches, unfortunately all people fail to understand it, & its impossible to explain it to them

[DaveW]

John, when someone comes on like this person, they can hardly expect people to participate, regardless of the validity or otherwise of the issue and argument.

If you show absolutely no respect to the other people, why would the other people give an answer?
My post in fact made no comment on the issue but only on the manner of posting.

A change of tone and apparent attitude would result in a genuine and possibly useful discussion. This person's current style will bring no real results, but only serve to insult and offend others - which surely can not be honouring to the Lord.

[ASongOfDegrees]

I realize that I'm probably in the minority, and what I'm about to say will probably get me tarred and feathered...but...

I believe that too much emphasis is placed on music in churches. I'm not just singling out the use of CCM...I'm including what would be considered sound, fundamental music.

It has become a tradition...most churches in my area operate this way...

• After Sunday School, gather in the sanctuary.
• Welcome
• Congregation sings a song (or two)
• Announcements
• Congregation sings a song (or instrumentalist plays a song) while receiving tithes/offerings
• Choir sings anywhere from 4 to 6 songs
• Soloist sings a song
• Finally...the pastor preaches

...and in most cases, the song service lasts longer than the sermon.

I'm not advocating removing singing from church services, but I do believe less emphasis should be put on it. After all, we are told in the Bible that the songs can "teach and admonish" us...

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

The music should help prepare our hearts to receive God's word. I think one or two songs...sang to the Lord...and to give him glory...would be better than what I see in churches today. Most of what I see is self-glorifying.

It has gotten to the point that many churches are driven by the music program instead of God's word. The Bible is clear that preaching is the method that God has chosen to reach people...not the music program.

Romans 10:14-17
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Again, I'm not advocating removing music...I just think it should be de-emphasized. I think of this example...After Jesus and the disciples had finished the Lord's supper, we read this...

Matthew 26:30
And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Just one hymn...

 

You might be on to something.

 

Maybe just have an occasional service (on a Wednesday or Thursday night)  with nothing but singing and testimonies instead. 

[John81]

John, when someone comes on like this person, they can hardly expect people to participate, regardless of the validity or otherwise of the issue and argument.

If you show absolutely no respect to the other people, why would the other people give an answer?
My post in fact made no comment on the issue but only on the manner of posting.

A change of tone and apparent attitude would result in a genuine and possibly useful discussion. This person's current style will bring no real results, but only serve to insult and offend others - which surely can not be honouring to the Lord.

I never defended the person, nor suggested one had to engage them in discussion.

[John81]

There is a standard for music in churches, unfortunately all people fail to understand it, & its impossible to explain it to them

Yes, one standard in one church, another standard in the next, different standards in other churches, different standards in the city, country, black churches, white churches, Korean churches, African churches, rich churches, poor churches, etc.

 

Even if we narrow it down to just Baptist churches there is no one set standard. I've been to Baptist churches with similar standards, but none the same, and often there can be a great deal of difference between standards from one Baptist church to the next.

 

The debate over Christians and music has gone on for centuries and no set standards have ever emerged. We see the same thing today, not only in Christianity overall, but even among IFBs.

[Micha-el]

Jerry, your tactic of avoiding the question is stunning in its effectiveness.

 

Can you answer the question: what makes the Amish wrong, in their rejection of your level of worldliness, and what make your level of worldliness acceptable?

Edited March 29, 2013 by Micha-el