Tithing

[Pastor Matt]

This sounds like a good case where Matthew 18 should be applied.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Not sure that it Matthew 18 should come into play or not.

The pastor lied openly, he should be rebuked openly.

And did not Paul warn people in his epistles of certain people?

The thing is, the pastor is on his way out the door. He announced in February that he has accepted an assistant pastor position in a bigger Church in another state. He even made the statement in his sermon Sunday morning "You don't want to tithe? I don't care! I'm not going to be here long anyway."

The sermon was a rebuke, not just to me, but to others that were not tithing for whatever reason. And there were visitors present that morning. Sure didn't make the Church look good rebuking its members before them.

He tried to instill fear, saying that the devourer might make your car break down, and then quoting Malachi's passage about the devourer.

Last time I checked, the devourer in Malachi was locusts, not a faulty fan belt.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ

[John81]

Not sure that it Matthew 18 should come into play or not.

The pastor lied openly, he should be rebuked openly.

And did not Paul warn people in his epistles of certain people?

The thing is, the pastor is on his way out the door. He announced in February that he has accepted an assistant pastor position in a bigger Church in another state. He even made the statement in his sermon Sunday morning "You don't want to tithe? I don't care! I'm not going to be here long anyway."

The sermon was a rebuke, not just to me, but to others that were not tithing for whatever reason. And there were visitors present that morning. Sure didn't make the Church look good rebuking its members before them.

He tried to instill fear, saying that the devourer might make your car break down, and then quoting Malachi's passage about the devourer.

Last time I checked, the devourer in Malachi was locusts, not a faulty fan belt.

It sounds as if your pastor didn't handle this well, but if you are getting a new pastor soon might it be better to just ride this out and see who the next pastor is?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

That is probably what we will have to do.

I just hate sitting under a pastor that knows a lie but tells it anyway.

It hinders worship.

[John81]

That is probably what we will have to do.

I just hate sitting under a pastor that knows a lie but tells it anyway.

It hinders worship.

I understand your concerns.

This is why looking for a new church home or selecting a new pastor for a church should be done patiently and with Scripture in hand. (Not speaking directly to you, but in general, as this issue raises this)

Some churches go through pastor after pastor because they rush to grab the first pleasant pastor they can get without fully asking him questions with regards to his own testimony, view of Scripture and where he stands on doctrine and such matters. An area church found themselves in this position for several years. The last time they booted their pastor they called our pastor and asked if he could help them figure out what they were doing wrong and how to make corrections. Our pastor told them first of all, they should make sure any prospective pastor is actually a born again believer in Christ before they proceed any further in their interviews for pastor. It's a shame that even has to be mentioned, but there seems to be more unsaved pastors out there than saved ones. Too many people have the idea that if a man is a pastor, that must mean he's right with God, but that's not the case.

The same is true when looking for a new church home. There are a few around here who go from one church to another because they base their selection more on emotion and "feeling" rather than learning what the a churches statement of faith says, learning if the pastor is born again and what stands he takes on key matters.

It can be difficult dealing with a pastor who is off, especially if they are way off. I've been there before. The two most egregious times, with one I left that church, with the other I tried talking with the pastor to no avail, as did two others and eventually all three of us met with the pastor; again to no avail. We remained in that church until we found another.

Thankfully, we have a good church home now with a solid pastor and associate pastor.

[irishman]

Actually we should all be beyond reproach, but we are not! You should go to your preacher and talk this out instead of posting it on a general forum. that may be worse than a lie! I do believe in tithing, as we hashed this out before several times, but the fact is, and the real problem is, you criticizing the preacher to us. Most of us don't know him, but if we were to meet him, our minds have already been affected against him. I have lied too, sometimes deliberately, but I cannot change that now, I just go on in the grace of God.

If you don't wish to tithe, keep your money and do whatever you want with it, but when the government demands his portion (more than a tithe) try bucking him for awhile. (The government lies to get your money too, and we are made to suppose that it is beyond reproach)

Edited May 22, 2012 by irishman

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Actually we should all be beyond reproach, but we are not! You should go to your preacher and talk this out instead of posting it on a general forum. that may be worse than a lie! I do believe in tithing, as we hashed this out before several times, but the fact is, and the real problem is, you criticizing the preacher to us. Most of us don't know him, but if we were to meet him, our minds have already been affected against him. I have lied too, sometimes deliberately, but I cannot change that now, I just go on in the grace of God.

If you don't wish to tithe, keep your money and do whatever you want with it, but when the government demands his portion (more than a tithe) try bucking him for awhile. (The government lies to get your money too, and we are made to suppose that it is beyond reproach)

I assume that you are speaking of taxes when you say the government gets my money?

BZZZTTTT.... I don't pay yearly taxes. Because I am disabled, I am not required to pay yearly taxes. I do pay a personal property tax on our Pathfinder, but it is far, far less than 10%. The largest tax that might apply to me is food tax, which is 7%.

But the fact remains, I am not required to tithe... even though my pastor and others preach that I am under a curse for not tithing. The curse for not tithing was under the Law. I am not under the Law. The Apostle Paul said that those who would put themselves under the Law are cursed if they do not continue in all the Law.

I am just curious, since most people argue that Abram's tithe to Melchizedek was prior to the Law and that is proof that the tithe was established, why do preachers focus on a tithe of money and not on the other things that Abram tithed? Abram obviously tithed from clothing he recovered from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer and the six kings that were with him.

Why just a tithe of money if Abram's tithe was a principle that we are supposed to live by?

[282Mikado]

StandingFirm, you really need to give this topic a rest. You were making the same arguments when I was on this board over 4 years ago. Arguing about whether it should be called tithing or not is about as useful as arguing about the Gap Theory. Most mature, sincere Christians are probably giving at least 10% or more whether they call it tithes, offerings, gifts, or whatever else. Is God going to look on my offering less than yours because I happen to still use the word "tithe". If so then I guess the blood of Christ isn't all sufficient (No disrespect intended, I am only making a point). Or perhaps I will get to heaven and God will say, "Here I had 10 crowns for you, but you insisted on calling your offerings "tithes". I am sorry, you can only have 5 crowns". Somehow I don't see that as likely. Perhaps the missionaries that are supported through my tithes and offerings are really only effective with that portion of my money that goes in as offerings and the tithe portion is just wasted away. Again, I don't think that is likely.

Give with a joyful heart unto the Lord and He will accept it whatever you call it. You can call it offerings all you want; if it is offered insincerely, it is of no affect in Heaven.

[HappyChristian]

StandingFirm, you really need to give this topic a rest. You were making the same arguments when I was on this board over 4 years ago. Arguing about whether it should be called tithing or not is about as useful as arguing about the Gap Theory. Most mature, sincere Christians are probably giving at least 10% or more whether they call it tithes, offerings, gifts, or whatever else. Is God going to look on my offering less than yours because I happen to still use the word "tithe". If so then I guess the blood of Christ isn't all sufficient (No disrespect intended, I am only making a point). Or perhaps I will get to heaven and God will say, "Here I had 10 crowns for you, but you insisted on calling your offerings "tithes". I am sorry, you can only have 5 crowns". Somehow I don't see that as likely. Perhaps the missionaries that are supported through my tithes and offerings are really only effective with that portion of my money that goes in as offerings and the tithe portion is just wasted away. Again, I don't think that is likely.

Give with a joyful heart unto the Lord and He will accept it whatever you call it. You can call it offerings all you want; if it is offered insincerely, it is of no affect in Heaven.

I second the request to give it a rest...(the tithing). The lying part is of more concern, but it really isn't ours - it's yours and Linda's, Standing (although I do understand your upset at lies from the pulpit...). If this pastor were staying there, I could see a possible discussion. But he's leaving, and taking his lies with him. Instead of using it as an excuse to bring tithing up yet again, maybe rejoice that God is moving him on. Perhaps your next pastor will agree with you about tithing, or at the very least won't preach about it.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

StandingFirm, you really need to give this topic a rest. You were making the same arguments when I was on this board over 4 years ago. Arguing about whether it should be called tithing or not is about as useful as arguing about the Gap Theory. Most mature, sincere Christians are probably giving at least 10% or more whether they call it tithes, offerings, gifts, or whatever else. Is God going to look on my offering less than yours because I happen to still use the word "tithe". If so then I guess the blood of Christ isn't all sufficient (No disrespect intended, I am only making a point). Or perhaps I will get to heaven and God will say, "Here I had 10 crowns for you, but you insisted on calling your offerings "tithes". I am sorry, you can only have 5 crowns". Somehow I don't see that as likely. Perhaps the missionaries that are supported through my tithes and offerings are really only effective with that portion of my money that goes in as offerings and the tithe portion is just wasted away. Again, I don't think that is likely.

Give with a joyful heart unto the Lord and He will accept it whatever you call it. You can call it offerings all you want; if it is offered insincerely, it is of no affect in Heaven.

You may be correct that most Christians are giving 10% or more. But for what reason are they giving that 10%? Is it because they have been taught from the pulpit that that is what the Lord requires of them? If so, they are giving for the wrong reasons. They are giving due to compulsion... or coercion.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I second the request to give it a rest...(the tithing). The lying part is of more concern, but it really isn't ours - it's yours and Linda's, Standing (although I do understand your upset at lies from the pulpit...). If this pastor were staying there, I could see a possible discussion. But he's leaving, and taking his lies with him. Instead of using it as an excuse to bring tithing up yet again, maybe rejoice that God is moving him on. Perhaps your next pastor will agree with you about tithing, or at the very least won't preach about it.

We don't know when exactly when he is leaving. He has been saying he is leaving since February. He insists he will not leave until he sells his house... which some in the congregation that wanted to buy it walked through and said he is asking entirely too much.

If he is asking too much and not getting it, it is possible he isn't leaving any time soon.

[Anon]

The Bible says that you aren't to rebuke an elder except with 2-3 witnesses.

It kind of sounds like your church does not like your pastor. And it sounds like your pastor is discouraged about your church. It is not a good testimony for a church to discourage their pastor.

Regardless, this is a topic for your private church. And we all here already know what you believe about tithing...so really, there is no more issue that needs to be discussed here. And I refuse to talk badly about your pastor. He answers to God, not me.

[Steve Schwenke]

I have to agree with the others here, SFIC. You complain about him lying, but you bash him on a public forum behind his back? Is that the proper Christian response? He is not here to defend himself, so you are giving your side of the story, and we have no way to verify it, or here his side.
(I am not suggesting that you are a liar. )

I simply cannot imagine airing the dirty laundry from our church....or any of the other churches I have been a member of on a public forum behind my pastor's back or behind my congregation's back.....It isn't right. Keep it in the church....

[John81]

Most of those Christians who are born again and actually living by the Word give in accord with the NT directive on giving and their giving tends to be much more than 10%.

Most other Christians, both actual and just professing, give less, often much less, than 10%.

One of the most common complaints coming from churches/pastors who preach the OT tithe, is that less than 10% (kind of ironic) of the congregation tithes, with the rest giving far less, most often between 1% and 4%.

Giving coming from a heart truly surrendered to the Lordship of Christ in ones life will always be in abundance whether it's coming from that desperately poor person who puts in all they have or that wealthy person who gives generously each week plus also gives generously to each special project and need.

The issue which needs to be most addressed with regards to giving is where is our heart. Are we giving because we feel like we "have to" or because we truly want to give to the Lord for the expansion of His kingdom? Do we give only because of compulsion or because our heart yearns to give what the Spirit leads us to give and we are happy to do so? Is our giving based upon our own determination, the leading or prompting of man, or under the Lordship of Christ and the leading of His Spirit?

This is where many churches/pastors miss the mark, they preach/teach only on what they say must be done, but fail to put forth the effort to deal with the hearts of the congregation. If we profess Christ then we should be constantly yielding our hearts to Him more and more. As Paul makes it clear, there should be more of Christ in us and less of our old self showing forth.

If we surrender to Christ as Lord, then our giving will be in the will of God because we will turn that over to Him; we won't be getting divorces, having children out of wedlock, sleeping with a girlfriend, because we will surrender that aspect of our lives as well; we won't be getting drunk, doing drugs, watching perverse movies, because we will be following Christ as Lord, not our flesh.

This is why Jesus commands us to make disciples, not just "converts".

As to the lying issue, it could be discussed in general, but for the most part that's a church matter that could only rightly be settled within the church.

[Anon]

Giving generously is ALWAYS ALWAYS blessed of God. And that's usually how my husband approaches it from the pulpit. If he does speak of money, its rarely, and its always prefaced by the fact that he's not preaching on it because HE wants to (he doesn't...and he has no clue who gives and who does not, and does not want to know) but that he's preaching on it for the sake of the PEOPLE who will be blessed of God if they give.

Its what shepherds do. For instance a shepherd will tell his flock to stay near to him...not because he's a control freak and wants to micromanage them, but because he knows there are dangers outside of his area and he wants the flock safe.