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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I have to agree with some of the other posts that say that the plan of salvation was made before the beginning of the world and that God made a way for us to be saved, but we need to hear the Word and believe it in order to accept it. If someone never believes it, they aren't saved, no matter how much God wants them to be.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. Why? For our salvation! Whether Abraham, Jeremiah, Peter, Paul, Adrian, Jerry.


John 14:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

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  • Lady Administrators

The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. Why? For our salvation! Whether Abraham, Jeremiah, Peter, Paul, Adrian, Jerry.


John 14:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


There is no argument with the fact that Jesus was slain before the foundation - scripture is clear on that. And scripture is clear that salvation is only through Christ. And it is clear that all who call on Him WILL BE (not already are) saved. Salvation was paid for before the foundation of the world. But it is only delivered when the individual calls upon Him. To assume that, because Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, we are automatically saved is adding to scripture where scripture is silent. PBear quoted a scripture that might be used to suggest what you are saying, John, but as he pointed out, that isn't what it's saying. Salvation was planned before the world was created. But, again, it's not mine until I take it...
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Who said anything about being "automatically saved"? I've never even heard of that before.

It seems a few are stretching far beyond what I've said trying to reach for something else or trying to tie something to something else when all I've done is made a freestanding statement, nothing more.

If anyone wants to pick apart what I stated, that's fine, but I meant nothing more or less than what I simply stated.

I thank God for His provision of salvation!


Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

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It seems as if many contributors to this forum have a fixation against the Biblical truth nicknamed "calvinism." However, their concern is is against their own deductions from their own misunderstandings, rather than against the Biblical teachings of those who hold to the doctrines of grace,

P.Bear quotes a relevant Scripture, but in his last statement denies it.


Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I have to agree with some of the other posts that say that the plan of salvation was made before the beginning of the world and that God made a way for us to be saved, but we need to hear the Word and believe it in order to accept it. If someone never believes it, they aren't saved, no matter how much God wants them to be.

Bold italics are mine, Bold is his.

If he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, then how can it be argued that "If someone never believes it, they aren't saved, no matter how much God wants them to be." We should simply stop at the agreed point: "If someone never believes it, they aren't saved."

I hope we all agree that in order to be saved we must hear the Gospel, repent, & believe in Jesus & his saving work, and walk in newness of life. Our arguments must be constrained by Scripture. To accuse us of teaching the logical deductions of others does not further a Scriptural discussion.

The force of the link in the OP is the Q & A:
But what if a child lives in Africa and never hears about Jesus? Is God fair to punish people in hell if they never even read the Bible?
.....
God is a just Judge. He would be fair to send every person to hell, because every person has broken His commands.

But here is good news! Before creating the world, God chose to set His love on some sinners and save them through Jesus (Ephesians1:3-7). God is all powerful, so He can make sure these people hear about Jesus. For example, the Bible tells about a man named Cornelius who was seeking God but didn’t know Jesus. God sent Peter to tell Cornelius about Jesus, and he was saved from his sin (Acts 10).

As God used Peter, God can also use you to tell others about Jesus!....
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Good to speak to you again, Heartstrings. Good question! But I think the question I asked you back in November is logically prior to this one, i.e. we need to answer mine in order to make sense of yours. You didn't answer my question from November at the time--will you do so now?



All the best

Carl


I don't know if I can answer to those questions.

We were deceived
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: This was a lie.
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. This was true. but still deceptive

We all have desires
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. What does the Bible say is the "root of all evil"? "love of money"? Right here, Eve WANTED or LUSTED after what did not belong to her. that is called 'covetousness'.
But Eve had not sinned yet. Why? because no LAW had been given for that. The only "law" was thou shalt not "eat". Paul says: Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Now back to Genesis...
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. When they transgressed God's Law, their eyes were opened and they truly knew good and evil, right and wrong. Before that, they were in total innocence. They died spiritually. I think, possibly, EVERY innocent child 'dies' when he sins that first time.

We all must make choices involving our desires
In conclusion, all creatures born with desires from the lowest animal to the most intelligent person. Just like Adam and Eve and the 'fruit', God gave us a world full of wonderful things, and He gave us all appetites for those things. But unlike animals, men have law; and on a few things, God says "thou shalt not". He does not "will"(want) us to do them but we "will" to do them anyway. Again, I don't know if I can answer your question. Is it that "will" is a God-given and healthy thing? I know I'm not answering your question, I would like to know it myself.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Just a question... where in Ephesians1:3-7 does it say that "God chose to set His love on some sinners and save them through Jesus"? My Bible says "us", not some - Meaning that he made a way for "us" (me, you and everyone) to be saved through Christ.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • Advanced Member

I don't know if I can answer to those questions.

We were deceived
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: This was a lie.
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. This was true. but still deceptive

We all have desires
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. What does the Bible say is the "root of all evil"? "love of money"? Right here, Eve WANTED or LUSTED after what did not belong to her. that is called 'covetousness'.
But Eve had not sinned yet. Why? because no LAW had been given for that. The only "law" was thou shalt not "eat". Paul says: Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Now back to Genesis...
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. When they transgressed God's Law, their eyes were opened and they truly knew good and evil, right and wrong. Before that, they were in total innocence. They died spiritually. I think, possibly, EVERY innocent child 'dies' when he sins that first time.

We all must make choices involving our desires
In conclusion, all creatures born with desires from the lowest animal to the most intelligent person. Just like Adam and Eve and the 'fruit', God gave us a world full of wonderful things, and He gave us all appetites for those things. But unlike animals, men have law; and on a few things, God says "thou shalt not". He does not "will"(want) us to do them but we "will" to do them anyway. Again, I don't know if I can answer your question. Is it that "will" is a God-given and healthy thing? I know I'm not answering your question, I would like to know it myself.


Thanks for this response, Heartsrings. And apologies for taking so long to get back to you. I agree, I don't think you are answering the question and I can't answer it either! The reason I bring it up is because I don't think the foreknowledge/predestination distinction you make in your robot analogy really works unless we can answer it.
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  • Advanced Member

Can someone show me a verse where it says we were "saved" before the foundation of the world? I don't see it. I see where we we "chosen in him" but that is not the same as being "saved in him". Read the passage carefully. It says nothing about us being saved in eternity past. If that we the case then, in essence, we were saved at one time but then lost our salvation then were saved again.

The passage says we were "chosen in him" to be "holy and without blame before him in love". i.e God determined before hand that all those who accept the Son will have a holy and blameless position before the Father. You don't get "in him" until you receive Jesus Christ as your Lord in Savior.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
"So how did we get created with 'wants' (or desires) that are against God?"

To quote your latest post, where did the desire to "choos(e) the bad instead of the good" come from?


For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Isaiah 13:14

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 1:6 (Skip to verse 8)
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.Jude 1:8

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

It says that the 'angels who kept not their first estate" "despised dominion", confirmed in Isaiah 13 where satan says "I will ascend" and "i will exalt MY throne" . John 8 also says that the devil is the "father" of lying. Evidently that means it originated with him. We know that the devil is evil, correct? Let's look at another verse...... For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.1 Timothy 6:10. When the devil despised God's dominion, said in his heart "i will ascend" and "I will exalt", i doubt it was dollars. pounds, or legal tender of any kind he was greedy for. Perhaps it means simply "Greed" of any kind.

Root of all evil (wanting more)
The devil wanted to usurp all power "I will exalt my throne......"
The devil wanted glory "I will ascend into Heaven"
The devil wanted worship "will sit also upon the mount ..."

The devil then tempted Eve into the very same mindset. (wanting more)
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It seems as if many contributors to this forum have a fixation against the Biblical truth nicknamed "calvinism." However, their concern is is against their own deductions from their own misunderstandings, rather than against the Biblical teachings of those who hold to the doctrines of grace,

P.Bear quotes a relevant Scripture, but in his last statement denies it.

Bold italics are mine, Bold is his.

If he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, then how can it be argued that "If someone never believes it, they aren't saved, no matter how much God wants them to be." We should simply stop at the agreed point: "If someone never believes it, they aren't saved."

I hope we all agree that in order to be saved we must hear the Gospel, repent, & believe in Jesus & his saving work, and walk in newness of life. Our arguments must be constrained by Scripture. To accuse us of teaching the logical deductions of others does not further a Scriptural discussion.

The force of the link in the OP is the Q & A:


Covenantor, it appears you're getting the path to salvation (the way, the truth, and the life) confused with the plan of salvation. That foundation, that predestination, that good pleasure of his will is Jesus Christ the redeemer. We still have to forsake and take this free gift to have salvation. The verses from Ephesians 1 are a mind twister but they point to the redeemer as eternally evident not our receiving him.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Here is an excellent article that answers some questions on this subject, and refutes the false answers Calvinism gives:

What Is Biblical Predestination?


Excellent link Jerry!!! My pastor once preached on this topic and I could say it was almost identical to the linked topic. This is what rightly dividing the Word is all about!!

I quote his one statement and leave it at that. "PREDESTINATION HAS TO DO WITH THE ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER, NOT THE SALVATION OF THE UNBELIEVING SINNER."

God's Eternal Purpose by Norman H. Wells
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