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Total Inability...withou Excuse

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

If "that which may be known of God" was manifest in me, and God had showed it to me, and it was clearly seen, but I went to Hell anyway, how was I totally inable? And if I was 'totally inable' how could I be without excuse?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Edited by heartstrings
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

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1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
What?? Not for the elect only??
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

If "that which may be known of God" was manifest in me, and God had showed it to me, and it was clearly seen, but I went to Hell anyway, how was I totally inable? And if I was 'totally inable' how could I be without excuse?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I've heard many say this verse means or proves that one can get to heaven without Jesus. They point to the time this was written when virtually the entire population of the planet had know way of knowing about Jesus. They also point to all those prior to this being written who would have had no way to know. As well, it's pointed out even today there are millions who have never heard of Christ and won't in their lifetime.

I've encountered this many times. How do we rightly speak to this?
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I've heard many say this verse means or proves that one can get to heaven without Jesus. They point to the time this was written when virtually the entire population of the planet had know way of knowing about Jesus. They also point to all those prior to this being written who would have had no way to know. As well, it's pointed out even today there are millions who have never heard of Christ and won't in their lifetime.

I've encountered this many times. How do we rightly speak to this?


It's a difficult one. But Romans makes it very clear that in one way or another God has revealed Himself to man. Creation itself affirms the presence of a Creator regardless of what National Pornographic tries to prove otherwise. I personally believe that even though we live under the dispensation (covenant to some) of grace and the cross, there will be those who have never heard of God or Christ that will be judged by the law that is in the heart of EVERY created being. If one does a study of anthropology and theosophical anthropology (study of the origin of beliefs within cultures) one will always see that they have laws of right and wrong that they attempt to abide by and this is the case regardless of race, culture or creed. The how God will judge these that have never heard is something we can not know now. But we do know He is a merciful God who gave us Himself in the form of His son to die for us and there are many cases in the OT and when Christ walked as a man where those outside the Jewish belief showed a goodness of heart and a depth of faith in what was right that were granted mercy - the woman at the well being one example.
The Law came after Noah yet he was regarded as a righteous man. The method of God's saving grace has not always been the same and we would do well not to put Him in a box because our lack of knowledge and understanding. I am not saying that there are more ways to heaven than Jesus. I am saying that the knowledge of God the Creator and His Law is in the heart of every living person from birth and one only needs to see children push their boundaries to see that even a two year old knows right and wrong. I emphasize knows here because they know but do not yet understand. Remember the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - eating of the fruit opened there eyes? What were their eyes opened to? The knowledge of good and evil and this knowledge was an understanding of good and evil, before this understanding they were as babes.
I wonder sometimes that although we are "born" in sin because of Adam that the guilt of that sin is only imparted onto us when we UNDERSTAND what right and wrong is. If not then every child born to die a baby is in hell, every aborted fetus in hell and from what I see of God's character throughout the ENTIRE bible shows a God of mercy that searches the heart of every man and judges according to accountability.
Like I said, it's a difficult one and sometimes all we can say is "I don't know".
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If "that which may be known of God" was manifest in me, and God had showed it to me, and it was clearly seen, but I went to Hell anyway, how was I totally inable? And if I was 'totally inable' how could I be without excuse?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1 clearly blows Calvinism's doctrine of Total Inability out of the water.


Romans 1 indisputably establishes the Biblical ("calvinistic") doctrine of total depravity, & that they are without excuse for their sin. Does it also teach that people, seeing the invisible things of God in creation, are free to repent & turn to God? Paul said to the pagan Athenians:
24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth n
ot
in temples made with hands;

......

27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be n
ot
far from every one of us:


Is there, therefore, a way of salvation for repentant sinners apart from the Gospel of Christ? Is there no condemnation for those who have not heard the Gospel of Christ & therefore cannot believe in him of whom they have not heard? If the revelation of God's being in the light of creation renders mankind without excuse, must it also provide the means of salvation?

Up to a point we can make logical deductions from Scripture, as the OP does, but our deductions MUST be constrained by Scripture. That is where the anticalvinists fail in their logic - they make their own deductions from their (mis)understanding of Reformed doctrine.

What did Jesus mean when he said:
Mat. 11:
25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because
thou hast hid these things from the wise and prude
nt
, and hast revealed them u
nt
o babes.

26
Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27
All things are delivered u
nt
o me of my Father: and
no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

28
Come u
nt
o me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


John 6:
44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath se
nt
me draw him
: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh u
nt
o me.


John 16:
8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgme
nt
:

9
Of sin, because they believe n
ot
on me;

10
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11
Of judgme
nt
, because the prince of this world is judged.


The universal sinfulness of man is clear, as is his desperate need of salvation. Does sinfulness, & need, & inexcusable guilt, imply the ability to repent & believe with the Holy Spirit convincing sinners of their state? That you need to establish from Scripture if you are to make a convincing case for guilty sinners to be able to believe apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Romans 1 indisputably establishes the Biblical ("calvinistic") doctrine of total depravity, & that they are without excuse for their sin. Does it also teach that people, seeing the invisible things of God in creation, are free to repent & turn to God? Paul said to the pagan Athenians:
24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth n
ot
in temples made with hands;

......

27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be n
ot
far from every one of us:


Is there, therefore, a way of salvation for repentant sinners apart from the Gospel of Christ? Is there no condemnation for those who have not heard the Gospel of Christ & therefore cannot believe in him of whom they have not heard? If the revelation of God's being in the light of creation renders mankind without excuse, must it also provide the means of salvation?

Up to a point we can make logical deductions from Scripture, as the OP does, but our deductions MUST be constrained by Scripture. That is where the anticalvinists fail in their logic - they make their own deductions from their (mis)understanding of Reformed doctrine.

What did Jesus mean when he said:
Mat. 11:
25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because
thou hast hid these things from the wise and prude
nt
, and hast revealed them u
nt
o babes.

26
Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27
All things are delivered u
nt
o me of my Father: and
no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

28
Come u
nt
o me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


John 6:
44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath se
nt
me draw him
: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh u
nt
o me.


John 16:
8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgme
nt
:

9
Of sin, because they believe n
ot
on me;

10
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11
Of judgme
nt
, because the prince of this world is judged.


The universal sinfulness of man is clear, as is his desperate need of salvation. Does sinfulness, & need, & inexcusable guilt, imply the ability to repent & believe with the Holy Spirit convincing sinners of their state? That you need to establish from Scripture if you are to make a convincing case for guilty sinners to be able to believe apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.


Amazing how they can take scripture where Jesus is speaking to JEWS and then try and apply it the CHURCH!! Everything that Jesus said there was to fulfill the prophecy that the Jews would not know Him when He came.

Yes it IS ONLY GOD that draws man to Christ, but not as you try to imply that God only draws His own.

It is through the CROSS, the life, death and resurrection of Christ that is the GOSPEL, that God has used to draw ALL men to Him who will BELIEVE. That is why it is through the FOOLISHNESS of PREACHING that man is made aware that his sin separates him from God and he is in need of a savior. Romans makes it clear that ALL know right and wrong, but they do not know that there "right" can never be good enough and there "wrong" separates them from God. Preaching makes them aware, gives them the ability to make an informed decision based on TRUTH so that they may have no excuse. This doctrine of "irresistible grace" or "predestined election" is of the devil and no matter how hard you look you will NEVER find it in the bible.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Romans 1 indisputably establishes the Biblical ("calvinistic") doctrine of total depravity, & that they are without excuse for their sin. Does it also teach that people, seeing the invisible things of God in creation, are free to repent & turn to God? Paul said to the pagan Athenians:
24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth n
ot
in temples made with hands;

......

27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be n
ot
far from every one of us:


Is there, therefore, a way of salvation for repentant sinners apart from the Gospel of Christ? Is there no condemnation for those who have not heard the Gospel of Christ & therefore cannot believe in him of whom they have not heard? If the revelation of God's being in the light of creation renders mankind without excuse, must it also provide the means of salvation?

Up to a point we can make logical deductions from Scripture, as the OP does, but our deductions MUST be constrained by Scripture. That is where the anticalvinists fail in their logic - they make their own deductions from their (mis)understanding of Reformed doctrine.

What did Jesus mean when he said:
Mat. 11:
25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because
thou hast hid these things from the wise and prude
nt
, and hast revealed them u
nt
o babes.

26
Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27
All things are delivered u
nt
o me of my Father: and
no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

28
Come u
nt
o me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


John 6:
44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath se
nt
me draw him
: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh u
nt
o me.


John 16:
8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgme
nt
:

9
Of sin, because they believe n
ot
on me;

10
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11
Of judgme
nt
, because the prince of this world is judged.


The universal sinfulness of man is clear, as is his desperate need of salvation. Does sinfulness, & need, & inexcusable guilt, imply the ability to repent & believe with the Holy Spirit convincing sinners of their state? That you need to establish from Scripture if you are to make a convincing case for guilty sinners to be able to believe apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.


I told you he teaches that regeneration is a separte act from salvation. He won't see what he just said, but there it is in black and white. That is classic Calvinism. Rubbish is what it is.

God bless,
calvary
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It's a difficult one. But Romans makes it very clear that in one way or another God has revealed Himself to man. Creation itself affirms the presence of a Creator regardless of what National Pornographic tries to prove otherwise. I personally believe that even though we live under the dispensation (covenant to some) of grace and the cross, there will be those who have never heard of God or Christ that will be judged by the law that is in the heart of EVERY created being. If one does a study of anthropology and theosophical anthropology (study of the origin of beliefs within cultures) one will always see that they have laws of right and wrong that they attempt to abide by and this is the case regardless of race, culture or creed. The how God will judge these that have never heard is something we can not know now. But we do know He is a merciful God who gave us Himself in the form of His son to die for us and there are many cases in the OT and when Christ walked as a man where those outside the Jewish belief showed a goodness of heart and a depth of faith in what was right that were granted mercy - the woman at the well being one example.
The Law came after Noah yet he was regarded as a righteous man. The method of God's saving grace has not always been the same and we would do well not to put Him in a box because our lack of knowledge and understanding. I am not saying that there are more ways to heaven than Jesus. I am saying that the knowledge of God the Creator and His Law is in the heart of every living person from birth and one only needs to see children push their boundaries to see that even a two year old knows right and wrong. I emphasize knows here because they know but do not yet understand. Remember the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - eating of the fruit opened there eyes? What were their eyes opened to? The knowledge of good and evil and this knowledge was an understanding of good and evil, before this understanding they were as babes.
I wonder sometimes that although we are "born" in sin because of Adam that the guilt of that sin is only imparted onto us when we UNDERSTAND what right and wrong is. If not then every child born to die a baby is in hell, every aborted fetus in hell and from what I see of God's character throughout the ENTIRE bible shows a God of mercy that searches the heart of every man and judges according to accountability.
Like I said, it's a difficult one and sometimes all we can say is "I don't know".
Just to address the "God of mercy that searches the heart of every man and judges according to accountability"...

In Hosea 13, we see this decree by God:

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Now, in the Law, God declared:

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.


So, if every man is accountable for his own sins, how come the infants were put to death? Surely they must have sinned, for God had already decreed that the children would not be put to death for their father's sins. Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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I told you he teaches that regeneration is a separte act from salvation. He won't see what he just said, but there it is in black and white. That is classic Calvinism. Rubbish is what it is.

God bless,
calvary


That is not what he said at all.
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If "that which may be known of God" was manifest in me, and God had showed it to me, and it was clearly seen, but I went to Hell anyway, how was I totally inable? And if I was 'totally inable' how could I be without excuse?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


I've been preparing a message on this very passage of scripture (for future use). I'll have to pay attention to this thread. Which brings up something interesting God can put something on the heart of His children at the same time, which; is miraculous in and of itself.

Edit: This is going way off in another direction...I hope you're able to right this ship and get back to your OP. Its a good chapter to take in...in context. Edited by 1Tim115
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