Is It Ok To Treat Somneone Like A Dog?

[heartstrings]

Just because Jesus did it?


Matthew 15: 21Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. 22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. MatthewAnd her daughter was made whole from that very hour.


Who was she adressing? God. Why do I say that? Because Jesus knew this woman, knew her faith, and knew what she would do after he let her keep BEGGING until He finally implied that she was a dog, and then she admitted she was a dog....he knew all that before she cried out the first time. The point has been made that Jesus, Paul and others were "mean spirited and arrogant". Paul I'm not so sure, but I can promise you that when Jesus says we're dogs, he is not being mean spirited, arrogant, or even sarcastic Arrogance comes from pride, and God has none, ZERO. Jesus is TRUTH. When he says we're as dog, we're a dog, just a fact. Jesus, the KING of Glory, KNEW how great this woman's faith was and how tenacious about it she would be LONG before she uttered the first cry. He didn
t just finally "give in". he did it all on purpose. And through it all, those disciples got to MARVEL at her faith and the POWER of God that followed. None of this gives any of us the right to be rude or call people names. After all God can call us a FOOL to our face if He wants to....but WE better not do it to anyone.

[John81]

Good points! It's also important to realize Jesus was using the talk of dogs in an illustrative manner which this woman and those around were familiar with. Jesus wasn't actually calling this woman a dog in the manner it would be if we were to call someone a dog today.

Of course, in America, there are certain situation where if a person is called a dog, they actually take it as a compliment.

Good post! Also I would say, much needed. There seems to a be a growing movement among some to think it's okay to speak to others in a rude and obnoxious manner. They try to say Jesus did this but that's not what Jesus did. It's also often missed that the "harshest" words Jesus used were aimed at the religious leaders of the day, which should have known the Scripture, recognized who Jesus was and welcomed Him. Jesus was not harsh in His speach to average folks and there is plenty of admonition to us in the New Testament showing that we shouldn't be either.

[Steve Schwenke]

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
2 Corinthians 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
Ephesians 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Proverbs 11:1 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.

[Steve Schwenke]

Good points! It's also important to realize Jesus was using the talk of dogs in an illustrative manner which this woman and those around were familiar with. Jesus wasn't actually calling this woman a dog in the manner it would be if we were to call someone a dog today.

Of course, in America, there are certain situation where if a person is called a dog, they actually take it as a compliment.

Good post! Also I would say, much needed. There seems to a be a growing movement among some to think it's okay to speak to others in a rude and obnoxious manner. They try to say Jesus did this but that's not what Jesus did. It's also often missed that the "harshest" words Jesus used were aimed at the religious leaders of the day, which should have known the Scripture, recognized who Jesus was and welcomed Him. Jesus was not harsh in His speach to average folks and there is plenty of admonition to us in the New Testament showing that we shouldn't be either.

There is nothing new under the sun....the same self-righteous Pharisees of Christ's day exist today, and condemn all who do not act like them.

I commented on this here:

And I quote myself from that thread:

Jesus Christ was the perfect man – He always knew how to respond in every circumstance. Sometimes it was gentle, sometimes it was firm, sometimes it was “mean-spirited.” Sometimes He ignored them (John 8). Sometimes He sought to draw them out (Road to Emmaus).
Three things we can say for certain:
1. Jesus Christ had the utmost compassion on lost people – Matthew 9:36-38
2. Jesus Christ was generally patient and gentle with His disciples
a. Not always – our text, Matthew 16:23, etc.
3. Jesus Christ had very little time or patience for the self-righteous Pharisees, and rebuked them sharply

[John81]

The Pharisees were the religious rulers of the day, they were not the laity.

You seem to be insinuating that I'm a self-rightous Pharisee since you posted that comment below a quote from me. I'm not a religious leader and anyone who has read my postings should be able to tell I'm in no way self-rightous.

The only righteousness I or anyone else has comes from being born again in Christ. Through the Spirit we are to walk the path of righteousness for His names sake.

Jesus was kind, patient and loving with the average folks. He never falsely accused anyone nor used harsh words which drive wedges between people.

[Steve Schwenke]

John, I have told you multiple times to NOT READ SOMETHING INTO MY POSTS THAT ISN'T THERE...but you continue to do so, and continue to take offence. That is your fault, not mine....and it is too bad for you.
Psalms 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

To the issue at hand....Yes Jesus did speak "harshly" to some folks and drove a wedge that caused division. It is the Biblical pattern - Moses did it (Ex. 32) Elijah did it (I Kings 18), Isaiah-Jeremiah-Ezekiel did it, and so did Paul, Peter, James and John.

Lu 9:57 ¶ And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Lu 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Lu 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Lu 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Lu 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
Lu 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Mt 8:19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Mt 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Mt 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Mt 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Mt 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
Mt 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mt 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

JOhn, the entire BIBLE is a harch criticism of anyone and everyone who opposes the person and work of God Almighty. It is in itself a harsh word which brings a dividing point - salvation or condemnation, religion or salvation, heaven or hell, righteousness or sinfulness.

Pharisees have a tendency to condemn everyone who does not meet their OWN PERSONAL STANDARDS (i.e. subjective!), even when evidence is presented to the contrary. They condemned Jesus Christ for not agreeing with THEM - not because He was wrong.

Matthew 27:18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

[John81]

John, I have told you multiple times to NOT READ SOMETHING INTO MY POSTS THAT ISN'T THERE...but you continue to do so, and continue to take offence. That is your fault, not mine....and it is too bad for you.
Psalms 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

To the issue at hand....Yes Jesus did speak "harshly" to some folks and drove a wedge that caused division. It is the Biblical pattern - Moses did it (Ex. 32) Elijah did it (I Kings 18), Isaiah-Jeremiah-Ezekiel did it, and so did Paul, Peter, James and John.

Lu 9:57 ¶ And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Lu 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Lu 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Lu 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Lu 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
Lu 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Mt 8:19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Mt 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Mt 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Mt 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Mt 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
Mt 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mt 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

JOhn, the entire BIBLE is a harch criticism of anyone and everyone who opposes the person and work of God Almighty. It is in itself a harsh word which brings a dividing point - salvation or condemnation, religion or salvation, heaven or hell, righteousness or sinfulness.

Pharisees have a tendency to condemn everyone who does not meet their OWN PERSONAL STANDARDS (i.e. subjective!), even when evidence is presented to the contrary. They condemned Jesus Christ for not agreeing with THEM - not because He was wrong.

Matthew 27:18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

Why take everything so personal? If your intention was otherwise all you had to do was say so, I simply pointed out it looked directed at me because of where you posted what you said, immediately after quoting me.

No, the Word of God is not harsh, the Word of God is truthful, showing men they are sinners in need of a Saviour.

There are no actual Pharisees today. Any who could be called similar to Pharisees would have to be religious leaders. Considering how abused and misused the term is today, I don't even use it.

Notice Christians are to have love for one another and the fruit of the Spirit should be evident in our lives.

[Steve Schwenke]

John,
Why do we have to go around this bush so many times?
It is absolutely alright for YOU to insinuate something about ME, but when I respond back, I am wrong, and you are Mr. Innocent. I don't get that kind of behaviour...it reminds me of the lunch room when I was in 5th grade.

You said,
You seem to be insinuating that I'm a self-rightous Pharisee since you posted that comment below a quote from me.

I said:
John, I have told you multiple times to NOT READ SOMETHING INTO MY POSTS THAT ISN'T THERE...but you continue to do so, and continue to take offence. That is your fault, not mine....and it is too bad for you.

So what is your problem here?

Now:
Is the word of God harsh?
The reason you respond to this negatively (i.e. NO it is NOT harsh) is because you frame your perspective from where YOU are in YOUR life.
But go out to the State Universities, and start preaching the gospel and then see how they respond.
HINT: They will not be very NICE.
I am not suggesting that we be obnoxious in this (preaching at a university), but I am saying that the typical LOST crowd HATES the word of God, and to THEM it IS Harsh and it DOES cause a division point.

Example: For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Well, all the major far eastern religions consider this statement HARSH because they do not believe in SIN. To them, the only SIN is not being "tolerant" of other peoples religious view points.
All sodomites consider this harsh because they justify themselves instead of God.

Sometimes the truth hurts and YES it is harsh.
John 14:6 is a slap in the face to the pope and his bishops. It is a harsh statement that angers all Muslims.
Genesis 1:1 is a harsh statement for all evolutionists, and they go bonkers attempting to disprove it and remove it from the public schools.

Your entire perception is incorrect.

Finally, I can legitimately say that there are Pharisees among us today if they act like the Pharisees of the Gospel days. If they look, act, and talk like the Pharisees of Christ's day, then what is the difference?
Some people don't like the name because it is too apt a description for them. They don't like being condemned by their actions, so they bury their heads in the sand, and point the finger at those "mean-spirited" "harsh" people who don't measure up to their UNSCRIPTURAL ideas of what a Christian should be.

Where are the Elijah's, John the Baptist's, Paul's, and Moses' today?
Well, if we ever saw one the modern day Pharisees would quickly denounce them as being "mean-spirited" "ungracious" "harsh" and "fleshly." Just like they did to Jesus Christ.....

[John81]

Drop the pride and games and perhaps some of your posts would be worthy of attention. You have developed a dislike for me from the beginning because you misread some posts when you first joined and were unwilling to believe my attempts to clarify what I had stated. For some reason, you believe you know the mind of others and are able to discern hidden messages, codes or holograms.

I am here for the edification, fellowship and friendship of my brothers and sisters in Christ which I have been richly blessed with these past several years. If you wish to feud with someone, look elsewhere.

In accord with the Word, attempting to live in peace with all, I've put forth the olive branch several times only to have you direct snide remarks my way. If you cannot post peacefully towards me then stop making posts towards me at all. We should be brothers in Christ.

[HappyChristian]

Actually, I think things are mutually problematic. So, both of you please cease and desist immediately. If you desire to pursue the constant harping at each other (and, yes, you are both doing it), then take it private. Please, by all means, continue to post in various threads. But stop the personal jabs and jousts. Thank you.

[Steve Schwenke]

JOhn, You didn't even answer the post....you are dodging the topic of debate here, and making personal swipes at me. Who is playing games?

Now, I brought out some legitimate issues about the subject of debate here, and you completely ignored them. Why?

This is an extremely important topic to me, and I believe that much harm is being done in our churches today because too many preachers - and congregations! - are too "sensitive" to their feelings, and don't like being condemned, rebuked, or in any other way made to feel uncomfortable.

So, forget about anything negative feelings you have toward me, because those feelings don't effect me in one iota. I am discussing the issue at hand...and I would appreciate your honest evaluation and response to my posts.

PS - a really nice olive branch would be for you to provide the information I requested.

[Steve Schwenke]

Actually, I think things are mutually problematic. So, both of you please cease and desist immediately. If you desire to pursue the constant harping at each other (and, yes, you are both doing it), then take it private. Please, by all means, continue to post in various threads. But stop the personal jabs and jousts. Thank you.

I am posting legitimate questions.....

[HappyChristian]

STOP with the personalizing of it. Now. Thank you.

[heartstrings]

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
2 Corinthians 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
Ephesians 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Proverbs 11:1 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.

None of the verses you quoted is of a human being directly adressing another person as a fool; not even 1 Corinthians 15:36. The Lord Jesus Himself gave a warning against doing so. As I said above, God, can call a man a fool.....and that man's a fool....but none of us has that right. Jesus also got angry, took some chords in his hand, drove the moneychangers out of the temple and wrecked their little operation. But HE was GOD my friend. We don't have the right to get rough just because GOD did it. We don't have the right to be mean. Joel Osteen or whoever we want to name may be "nice" but being "nice" and "gentle" isn't the problem; false doctrine is.

[Steve Schwenke]

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Ac 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Question: How does a "shepherd" gently run a wolf off? I have never know hungry wolves to be "gentle." so how does that work?


2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Question: What does the word "rebuke" mean, and how does that fit with being "gentle?"


Psalms 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Question: Am I not allowed to call a person a "fool" as a matter of identification? If the Bible defines a person as a "fool" for doing or believing certain things, am I allowed to preach on those verses of Scripture (as here or in Proverbs), and use the title "fool" to describe those people who walk contrary to God?

Look, again, please don't misunderstand me!
There is a balance here.
Just as it is wrong for a person to ALWAYS be harsh, rude, obnoxious, etc., so it is wrong for them to ALWAYS be "sweet, kind, gentle."

We ARE supposed to rebuke GOD'S PEOPLE according to II Timothy 4:2, right?