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Were They All Self-Righteous Pharisees?


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Is it a sin to practice birth control or to get a vasectomy? We as Christians are supposed to believe that children are a blessing from God. I have heard the man with a full quiver is blessed. I looked around the church and noticed how small the families were. My former pastor's wife would love to have a little girl. They have talked adoption. They have 3 sons. I asked why adoption. Because if they keep trying for a girl, they might end up with a bunch of boys. Ok, what is wrong with that? Does the Bible teach us anywhere that we should decide how many kids to have? Anywhere? Shouldn't this be left up to God? Will God give us a burden we can't handle? How can we say we fully trust God in our lives, but yet we make our own decisions on such matters. Oh yea, I prayed about it and feel God is leading me to get a vasectomy. Is that really a Godly statement? Doesn't God open and close wombs as He sees fit? I actually asked my mother this some time back as she feels it isn't sin to practice birth control. When I told her my thoughts she replied, "can you imagine the ------ family having more kids, they can't control the ones they have so it is good they are taking steps to not have anymore?" Where in God's Word does it give me the right to look at another family in church and decide they don't need anymore kids?

I am not trying to point a finger at my former pastor as being a hypocrite. I don't feel he is a hypocrite. He never preached on a subject and then went out and did it, that I know of. I believe his beliefs are inconsistant with the Word of God. I believe when he preaches on faith in God and for us to put our faith in Him fully, and then letting it be known that they might not be having any more kids because it is their decision, than it is inconsistant.

Yes, the number and timing of children are to be left to God yet the wickedness of the world has permeated many areas of Christianity with the selfish, proud, humanistic belief that it's up to us how many children we have and when we have them. It comes down to us thinking we know better than God.

Similar things such as aspects relating to divorce, dating and the role of women have also been wrongly influenced by the radical feminist movement and other worldly ideologies.

With all that said, there is no such thing as a perfect church. If we follow God's direction, He will lead us to the church He would have us attend.

There are many ways many of us claim Jesus is our Lord yet we turn around and demand that we are lord over certain areas by our actions. This often shows itself clearly with regard to spouse selection, children, career, college, homemaking, the church we attend, our entertainment, friends, etc.

Jesus addressed this by asking those around Him why they called Him Lord when they didn't do as He said. It seems to be difficult for most of us to give up ruling our own lives and truly accepting that Jesus is Lord and we are to follow His lead in all things.
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One Sunday, on the way up to the pulpit, my former pastor stopped by my pew and asked me to take my 8 month old daughter back to the nursery because she was disrupting the service. I about fell over. My daughter had never made a peep and when I asked the pastor about this, he actually did agree that he never heard my daughter during the service. But she was disrupting the service because when I held her over my shoulder, people behind me would make googly eyes and wave at her. My pastor said he understood that some parents have attachment issues but he would like me to put her in the nursery. Attachment issues???? Since when is having a young child in a church service an attachment issue? Was my daughter really disrupting the service? Wasn't it the adults that were disrupting the service by waving and making googly eyes? Shouldn't grown adults be listening to the sermon and not paying attention to a baby? I did submit to my pastor and put her in nersery. That same night she went home with a bruise on her head from the pastor's son and three days later she got her first cold. Yes, my daughter made it through 8 months without a cold.

This might seem like a personal issue because I was offended about what the pastor did, but it isn't. For the next year and a half, all my kids were put in the nursery. I am to submit to my pastor, and I did. What I want to know is where were the kids while Jesus preached? Who handled the nersery in Jesus' day? What was the disciples view on children disrupting the service? Is a nursery consistent with the Bible? Is children's church consistent with the Bible? I can honestly say, I remember more from the pastor's preaching as a kid than I can remember from children's church. We only had children's church in the morning. On sunday night and wednesday night, I had to sit in the sanctuary with my mom.

The reason I brought this up is I was wondering when the nursery came about. Is the nursery really for the kids? Are we trying to appeal to the pastor and that is why we offer the nursery? Are we trying to appeal to the congregation? Are we trying to appeal to the parents who would like a break from their young children so they can learn?

I have heard preaching about churches being wrong for trying to appeal to the crowd. I can think of one subject being the "band" in church. I have heard preaching against this, not just for the music, but for a church trying to "appeal" to a younger crowd. The church doesn't need to appeal to any crowd. We have the Holy Spirit that finds good preaching appealing. Are we being consistant when we preach about not appealing to any particular group in the church? If you think I am stretching again, does your church advertise a nursery on its website to appeal to parents? If you don't feel you are trying to appeal to parents, than why advertise it?

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The current chuch I belong to likes to cancel church on Holidays. If there is a Monday Holiday or one that falls on Sunday, like Christmas or Easter, they will cancel Sunday evening service. The statement the asst. pastor makes when he announces this in the morning is, "this is a Holiday and I know alot of you want to spend time with your families, so we will not be having evening service today." Does he really know what he is saying??? There are better places to be with family members than at church!!! Wow! I know not every Christian has family that goes to church, but wouldn't it be a better witness to leave the picnic table and go to church than to tell your lost family members that church is cancelled? Is this consistant with the Bible? I do know that the Bible doesn't say how often to go to church, but it does say that Jesus went weekly "which was custom". So if it is our church's custom to have 3 services a week, should we cancel because of a Holyday? I guess if my church does this every Holyday every year, than it could be considered custom. I still don't like how it is put about spending time with family.

On a side note. My mom knows how much this bothers me. She is still upset I left the IFB church she still attends so she likes to prod me about this. She will sacastically tell me there is some oddball Holiday and ask," so is your church going to cancel?" I just laugh it off. The sad thing is, her church, this past Easter, changed things up a bit. They decided to have the evening service from 9-10 am. They then broke for breakfast and fellowship. They then had the morning service from 11am-noon. They did not have Sunday School and the church was closed in the evening. My mom tells me this is fine because they still had their evening service and it is not the same as my church. LOL.

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I will stop replying for now, as I probably did too much babbling as it was. But I have used the label "pharisee" and don't feel I was wrong in doing so. I have such a bad taste in my mouth from "inconsistencies" that I see as common place anymore. I just wish that if we come up with some wild statements, that they would be from the Word of God. If the Word of God offends some, that is their problem. If we offend others because of our personal opinions, that is our problem.

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With all that said, there is no such thing as a perfect church. If we follow God's direction, He will lead us to the church He would have us attend.


My wife likes to tease me about this. My mom likes to throw stones at me about this. I am not looking for the perfect church, and I don't feel you were accusing me of such. We are human and make mistakes. I just get so frustrated when the inconsistencies seem to be so obvious. And, no, some of the points I made aren't so obvious but the one you did reply to seems like a "no brainer".
This just tugs at my heartstrings. I see my church getting smaller and smaller. Sunday nights might have 5-8 younger people. Many a wednesday night I have been the youngest in the Bible study. I am 43. I should never be the youngest. It is sad. I feel alot of the inconsistencies turn some away. I feel telling people there are better places to be than church, turns some away. The Bible does say in the end times our hearts will be hardened and there will be many that turn away. I just didn't want to see it in my lifetime. I guess I just need to keep praying and spreading the Gospel.
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My wife likes to tease me about this. My mom likes to throw stones at me about this. I am not looking for the perfect church, and I don't feel you were accusing me of such. We are human and make mistakes. I just get so frustrated when the inconsistencies seem to be so obvious. And, no, some of the points I made aren't so obvious but the one you did reply to seems like a "no brainer".
This just tugs at my heartstrings. I see my church getting smaller and smaller. Sunday nights might have 5-8 younger people. Many a wednesday night I have been the youngest in the Bible study. I am 43. I should never be the youngest. It is sad. I feel alot of the inconsistencies turn some away. I feel telling people there are better places to be than church, turns some away. The Bible does say in the end times our hearts will be hardened and there will be many that turn away. I just didn't want to see it in my lifetime. I guess I just need to keep praying and spreading the Gospel.

Striving for holiness in our own lives is very important. When we are salt and light as the Word commands then others will see Christ in us. This is also important when we seek to disciple others.

Sometimes pointing out things to people helps, sometimes they get defensive and prefer to rebel. Most churches are pretty set in their ways but there are a few with open hearts to learn to and grow.

Until recently, my wife and I were the youngest who normally attended adult Sunday school and we are in our late 40s. There is now a couple in their late 20s who attend and sometimes a 19 year old young woman attends. Other than that, everyone is late 40s to 60s.

It can be tough seeing so many professing Christians walking contrary to the Word. Earlier in my walk with Christ I had a very difficult time with this as I struggled to understand why I would read clearly what God says in His Word and then see the Christians I knew not following that. When I would ask I often got responses that didn't make sense; such as saying we can't be expected to actually live like that today.

It saddens me to see Christianity and this nation going the way they are. So much has changed so drastically for the worse in my lifetime. It's amazing how most simply just accept it and go with the flow.
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It can be tough seeing so many professing Christians walking contrary to the Word. Earlier in my walk with Christ I had a very difficult time with this as I struggled to understand why I would read clearly what God says in His Word and then see the Christians I knew not following that. When I would ask I often got responses that didn't make sense; such as saying we can't be expected to actually live like that today.



LOL....the responses I got were generally cold and condescending. Most the time I was made to feel stupid for even asking. I got to the point that I felt I might be coming across "holyier than thou" so I would really be careful and try to be as humble as possible while I asked. I got the same responses. This really bothered me. when I ask a question, I am not doing it to look smarter or to be judgemental, just want to know the answer. So, I gave up. It must not be me but who I was asking so, now, if I have a question, I just ask. Its funny how Christians can be so different. The pastor I have now acts excited to get asked questions. Maybe its because he is 80+ years old and has been doing this for over a half century and my former pastor was in his low 30's. Maybe he just didn't feel confident in his answers. Anyway, I don't hold ill will towards him or his church and will always be praying that his church grows. His church goes soul winning and there are but a few in the Ohio Valley that does so Praise the Lord for my former pastor. I will always love him.
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There is no inconsistency in pointing out the wickedness even in G rated movies while using the internet. The internet is like a city. Just as in a city, one can choose where to go and where to avoid on the internet. One can get online, check their local church website or a devoltional site, see if they have email from family, spend some time on OB, check the weather and never partake of the myriad of wicked sites online.

I've seen parts of several G rated, "family friendly" movies on TV while visiting my sister. Each one had many objectionable aspects to them, from "cute cussing" to promotion of evolution, false religions and the end justifies the means.

There are those who struggle with separating from movies and for some, seeing a known Christian attending the theater would be that stumbling block which would make them think it's okay to attend the movies; which often leads to little discernment as to just what movie is showing. I've actually known several people who have experienced this, some to the point of justifying watching vile horror movies because if it's okay to see some movies there should be no problem seeing any movie.

In the end, it's up to each of us to decide whether or not God would have us attend a theater. Myself, I've not been to a movie theater since 1986.
One can also choose which movie one watches in a movie theater. Jerry claims that G rated movies sin against God. I have yet to see one single G rated movie that sins against God.
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Yes, some are offended by God's absolute truths, but His truth still has to be proclaimed, that is, by those that are willing. Many were offended by what Christ proclaimed, they even hung Him on the cross because of it.

Tattoos & make up, I never have read a verse that say you shall not use make up, but we read this about that is clearly pointing to tattoos.

Le 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

And yes, some apply it way to thick, some have it on so thick they do not look human.

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One can also choose which movie one watches in a movie theater. Jerry claims that G rated movies sin against God. I have yet to see one single G rated movie that sins against God.

I don't know if I've ever seen one that doesn't promote evolution, false religions, paganism, unbiblical "families", worldly answers rather than God's way and even worse.
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Yes, some are offended by God's absolute truths, but His truth still has to be proclaimed, that is, by those that are willing. Many were offended by what Christ proclaimed, they even hung Him on the cross because of it.

Tattoos & make up, I never have read a verse that say you shall not use make up, but we read this about that is clearly pointing to tattoos.

Le 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

And yes, some apply it way to thick, some have it on so thick they do not look human.

I just lack confidence in using this verse. My nephew has a tattoo of a cross on his forearm. If I use this verse, he can tell me that it isn't for the dead. Don't cut your flesh for the dead or print marks on your body for the dead. Does the marks go back to the dead or does it stand alone meaning marks for any reason? And that is why I go for the reason to get a tattoo. Why would you want a tattoo? Trouble is, alot of the same answers for the tattoo are the same answers given to me for the reason women wear make-up.
To look pretty or to look cool. Ok, who is the person wanting to look pretty or cool for? For God? For their spouse? If we look pretty for our spouse, will someone else also find us pretty? Should we only look pretty at home for our spouse? If we are the ones drawing attention to ourselves by altering the way we would normally look, is this godly?
To make me feel better about myself. Ok, I would put this answer towards low self-esteem. This is a toughy because semetimes we can't help having a low self-esteem at times, but does that mean it is ok for a Christian to feel this way?
To fit in. Young girls wear make-up because their peers are and they don't want to stand out. People get tattoos because their peers are getting them. What group are we trying to fit into, God or the world?

And this is how I tied tattoos with make-up. If I use the verse alone, I don't know how to deal with "the dead" part. If I tell someone that "marks" stand alone, then that person can tell me that is my interpretation and I need to study grammar. If I go for the reason we get tattoos, it opens up more than just make-up such as cologne on a man or woman. And all this makes me feel like I am one confused individual! LOL
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I don't know if I've ever seen one that doesn't promote evolution, false religions, paganism, unbiblical "families", worldly answers rather than God's way and even worse.

paganism=magic. What is up with all this magic anymore? I go visist sister in KY an she puts on Barbie movie for her young daughter and my kids. It is filled with magic. I can sheepishly and quietly ask, "do you think they should be watching a show with all this magic stuff in it?" I then can get the loud answer, "IT'S JUST AN INNOCENT KIDS VIDEO, DO YOU HAVE TO BE SO UPTIGHT YOU SELF-RIGHTEOUS PHARISEE!!??" I guess I just don't see the innocence in a young, innocent child watching a video with so much garbage in it. Oh, and the innocent movie has an innocent rating of "G".
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I'm sure others can answer this better than I, so this is just my 2-cents.

Bible study has to include what's happening at the time the scriptures were inspired. Apparently cutting one's self was a part of the grief process when losing a loved one. Just as was using sackcloth and ashes.

As this is in a set of verses of what not to do, the comma in the verse may separate cutting for the dead and marking the body for any purpose. http://www.biblegate...cus 19&version=KJV

Edit: Reference your post #42.

Edited by Oldtimer
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paganism=magic. What is up with all this magic anymore? I go visist sister in KY an she puts on Barbie movie for her young daughter and my kids. It is filled with magic. I can sheepishly and quietly ask, "do you think they should be watching a show with all this magic stuff in it?" I then can get the loud answer, "IT'S JUST AN INNOCENT KIDS VIDEO, DO YOU HAVE TO BE SO UPTIGHT YOU SELF-RIGHTEOUS PHARISEE!!??" I guess I just don't see the innocence in a young, innocent child watching a video with so much garbage in it. Oh, and the innocent movie has an innocent rating of "G".


I suspect this could be a situation where you simply have to pick your battles. Suspect, from her loud answer, that you've had numerous battles with her on subjects such as this one.

I know that within my family (including my church family) I do have to pick my battles to keep from driving them away, alltogether. All of them do things that aren't according to scripture. I'm guilty of that, too. Because I can't be perfect, others are viewing my life and my actions, too. If far too many battles on far too many subjects, I have little chance of persuading anyone to even take a second look at truly serious stumbling blocks in their path. They'll quickly point to those in my path and close their ears to anything I have to say.

Yes, I know that all sin is wrong in the eyes of the Lord. My sins, included.

However, when working with others, isn't the point to bring them closer to the Lord? Depending on the individual circumstances, sometimes that can include ignoring, in others, what we may personally consider to the wrong path. Your example, may be such a situation. For young kids, almost every thing is magical, as they haven't learned enough yet to discern the differences in the meaning of the word. When the time is appropriate, teach them the difference between the "magical" work of the Lord and the sinful magic of satan. Help your sister do this, if she asks, when the time is right. Don't put her on the defensive because she chose a video that contains some form of "magic".

Possibly one way to do this is to plant seeds and let the Holy Spirit water them. In this instance, maybe a less confrontational approach would be to wait until another time. (Not while she's playing the video and especially, not in front of her child.) Casually mention that you're seeing the trend of more "magic" being included in children's materials. You're concerned about it and wonder if she's given any thought to the subject. If she doesn't want to talk, that's OK. You've planted the seed.
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