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20 hours ago, Ronda said:

There are 2 things that bother me most about Billy Graham's crusades of the past.
#1. He made an AGREEMENT with the Catholic church to turn over to them (give them their names) any catholic person who came forward during his style of altar call at any of his crusades. He was so well liked by the priests that they gave him an honorary degree (Belmont Abbey College - 1967). Now if a certain person does not WANT to believe this, look up the factual evidence of it.

#2. And this (to me) is MORE troublesome, because I heard this same rhetoric in many Baptist churches over the years... HIS version of "salvation" was "ask Jesus into your heart". Is that the gospel? No. The ACTUAL gospel is found in 1 Cor.15:1-4. It is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. That Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS!!! (underline and bold emphasis placed there by me)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

What is required of us? BELIEF/faith. (John 3:16-18, Rom.10:9-10, Eph.2:8-9, John 14:6,  et al). What do we BELIEVE??? The gospel!!! That Christ died for our sins, was  buried, was resurrected 3 days later.
We BELIEVE in our hearts, we CONFESS with our mouths, but no-where does the gospel state "ask Jesus into your heart"... that is NOT scriptural. That IS another gospel.  That is 'easy-believism' with the person often times having never even heard the actual GOSPEL, nor comprehending that Jesus died for their sins (and was buried and resurrected).!

Paul continues on in that chapter (1 Cor.15) to expound on GRACE, he also expounds on the resurrection that WE (as believers) will also have at the rapture, with a description of the rapture in that chapter as well.

Any "gospel" that does NOT present the death (that Jesus died for our sins), the burial, and the resurrection is a FALSE GOSPEL. Paul warns us that there are some who would "pervert the gospel of Christ". (Gal.1:7) He further gives more warning in verses 8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I don't care whom the pastor is... Billy Graham or any other... whomever is preaching any gospel in the age of grace OTHER than the gospel as set forth in 1 Cor.15:1-4, it is a FALSE GOSPEL. 
 

I strongly agree with you here Ronda.  It has been said on here recently that some perspons accepted Jesus so were baptised.  

I don't think they should have been if that is all their testimony.  Of course there may be more to it than that, which was not said,

Edited by Invicta
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Billy Graham, over the years, went his own way rather than sticking completely with scripture. He was warned by a number of men who saw the trail he was beginning to take. He chose to ignore the warni

That is then even more egregious. Because if he is preaching salvation and then lying about other things he supposedly believes, then logically folks who are lost will reject salvation because Graham

1 John 4:1-5 4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Ev

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4 hours ago, Invicta said:

I strongly agree with you here Ronda.  It has been said on here recently that some perspons accepted Jesus so were baptised.  

I don't think they should have been if that is all their testimony.  Of course there may be more to it than that, which was not said,

I don't know whom/what you are referencing, brother Invicta (sorry, cannot remember your name), but if the reason a person was baptized (by water, I assume you meant) was that they were expecting it to be a PART of their salvation, they are mistaken. 

I believe we are baptized by the Holy Spirit the moment we believe on Christ for salvation, and the the Holy Spirit indwells is unto the day of redemption. (And by that I must state that the GOSPEL is what we believe... that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and 3 days later arose). Water baptism is something APART from salvation... wherein we CHOOSE to willingly give an outward profession of the inward indwelling. 

As for WHAT the gospel is, I am adamant about this because God's word TELLS us what the gospel is in 1 Cor.15:1-4. This has caused much controversy over my lifetime because there are those who still cling to a "ask Jesus into your heart" so-called gospel, and that is not scriptural. I truly worry about their salvation. The gospel truly IS so simple a child can understand, but as long as it IS the gospel they actually are taught... not a watered down version. There is NO GOSPEL without the fact that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the 3rd day. Yes, I do worry that some are not believing the actual gospel and/or believing on Christ ALONE for salvation!  Paul worried over the same thing... (1 Cor.15:2) that some might "believe in vain"... that they weren't believing the actual gospel! So he laid it out again for them leaving no doubt as to what the gospel actually is (1 Cor.15:1-4)!

 

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13 hours ago, Invicta said:

My name is David.

Thank you, brother David. I always feel odd addressing someone by a user-name.  Now if I can REMEMBER your name it will be a wonderful feat! I could try to blame that on MS, but I've always been terrible with names. Please forgive me.

 

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On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 11:05 AM, Invicta said:

Over tenty years ago, we went to a Baptist Church in Ashford.  While we were there Billy Graham came to England.  Our church was the only one in the town who did not join in to support Graham. 

Totally sick and demented that any Christian would be against Graham when he has always preached from the pulpit the biblical doctrine of salvation. Those statements that are attributed to Graham about Graham supposedly believing that salvation can come about apart from Jesus are totally false as he does not really believe those statements that he supposedly made that contradict the Bible but he was suffering from some kind of mental illness.

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John, I hope you're trolling here. To say that he was suffering from some sort of mental illness when he said some things he said, but to stand and uphold other things he said, and to outright deny that he said certain things he is well known for, well, either you have no sense of reality in yourself, or you;'re just playing with us.

Billy Graham gave up basic solid Bible doctrine for the love and approval of the world a long time ago. He is an ecumenical compromiser, at best, and the fringe of heresy, at worst.

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1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

John, I hope you're trolling here. To say that he was suffering from some sort of mental illness when he said some things he said, but to stand and uphold other things he said, and to outright deny that he said certain things he is well known for, well, either you have no sense of reality in yourself, or you;'re just playing with us.

Billy Graham gave up basic solid Bible doctrine for the love and approval of the world a long time ago. He is an ecumenical compromiser, at best, and the fringe of heresy, at worst.

Every time I heard Graham preach on Television in his Crusades or otherwise it was always the biblical doctrine of salvation. So it is nonsense to state that he believed those statements that were against the Bible doctrine of salvation when he preached the biblical doctrine of salvation in his Crusades.

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John, I have a question for you. Has Billy Graham done something for you and your family that makes you so fiercely attached to him? Perhaps were they saved at a crusade? You seem awfully determined to believe that he is totally above doctrinal reproach, so to speak.

 

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5 hours ago, John Yurich said:

Totally sick and demented that any Christian would be against Graham when he has always preached from the pulpit the biblical doctrine of salvation. Those statements that are attributed to Graham about Graham supposedly believing that salvation can come about apart from Jesus are totally false as he does not really believe those statements that he supposedly made that contradict the Bible but he was suffering from some kind of mental illness.

How come every other church including Catholics supported him and why did he send "enquirers" back to their home dead churches?

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20 hours ago, Salyan said:

John, I have a question for you. Has Billy Graham done something for you and your family that makes you so fiercely attached to him? Perhaps were they saved at a crusade? You seem awfully determined to believe that he is totally above doctrinal reproach, so to speak.

 

None of my family were saved at a Billy Graham Crusade. The only thing that Graham did for me was to provide me with the biblical doctrine of salvation at an early age when I started watching his Crusades on Television at the age of 8. I was raised by my Catholic parents to watch Graham and other Evangelical Protestant ministers on Television to learn the Evangelical Protestant doctrine of salvation. If Graham has preached the biblical doctrine of salvation in his Crusades then logically he does not really believe that salvation can come about apart from Jesus regardless of what he may have stated in those articles.

17 hours ago, Invicta said:

How come every other church including Catholics supported him and why did he send "enquirers" back to their home dead churches?

I do not know the answer.

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I can see what an influence he was in your life. It's hard to hear anything against someone that has been important to us. I remember the first time I heard anything spoken against Elizabeth Elliot and James Dobson (both influential evangelical figures in my youth) - it was pretty much unbelievable to me that there could be anything wrong with anything they said! But all men are fallible.

I really don't see the mutual exclusion here that you do. Let me illustrate. If one person in a particular setting (say casual workplace acquaintance) ask where I was from, they'd get the quick answer (hometown, central AB). If another person in another setting (say good friend at home) was to ask me, they'd probably get a more thorough answer (born in BC, moved back at such an age to be with family, etc.). The first answer does not negate the second.

In the same fashion, it is completely possible for Graham to give a short definition of salvation in his crusades, and a more thorough explanation of his views in that area when giving interviews or writing books. His short definition may sound correct to us (and frankly, since the crusades are designed to appeal to a wide variety of denominations, he probably chooses his words carefully while preaching in them so as not to offend anyone), while his more detailed explanation exposes some serious doctrinal deviances.

Ultimately, what you choose to believe about any person is your choice. It really doesn't affect me at all. I am concerned, though, that you allow yourself, in any part of life, to consider all the pertinent information, and not reject out of hand anything that does not meet with your preconceptions. It is not logical to refuse to accept a man's own words as evidence of his beliefs. Faith is not strengthened by the refusal to challenge it, and God's Word is strong enough to stand up to our questions.

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6 hours ago, John Yurich said:

None of my family were saved at a Billy Graham Crusade. The only thing that Graham did for me was to provide me with the biblical doctrine of salvation at an early age when I started watching his Crusades on Television at the age of 8. I was raised by my Catholic parents to watch Graham and other Evangelical Protestant ministers on Television to learn the Evangelical Protestant doctrine of salvation. If Graham has preached the biblical doctrine of salvation in his Crusades then logically he does not really believe that salvation can come about apart from Jesus regardless of what he may have stated in those articles.

I do not know the answer.

Some were saved as a result of his campaigns, including some members of my own family, but many whopo were enquiring were sent back to Catholic churches,

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On 5/8/2017 at 1:15 PM, John Yurich said:

Totally sick and demented that any Christian would be against Graham when he has always preached from the pulpit the biblical doctrine of salvation. Those statements that are attributed to Graham about Graham supposedly believing that salvation can come about apart from Jesus are totally false as he does not really believe those statements that he supposedly made that contradict the Bible but he was suffering from some kind of mental illness.

If it is true that he is suffering from some kind of mental illness due to old age, then his ministry needs to keep him from speaking in public.

His quotes about people getting in to heaven apart from saving faith in Jesus, are killing us in personal evangelism. His name alone nearly makes him an "authority" on salvation to many people who are biblically illiterate. When Billy Graham says something, his name trumps mine in a discussion about salvation. So it's not uncommon to have someone tell me "well Billy Graham says....".

I want Billy Graham to finish the race well, and not let his "feelings" on a subject take precedence over the Bible.

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Free eBook... Billy Graham's Sad Disobedience.... available in pdf, mobi (Kindle) and ePub formats.  

Web page: https://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/billy_grahams_disobedience.php

Direct pdf link: http://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/downloads/Billy_Grahams_Sad_Disobedience.pdf

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"Totally sick and demented..." is unacceptable speech toward members who just don't happen to agree with you, John Yurich. You are hereby officially warned, and as soon as I finish this, you will receive warning points. Step back and be a little less (really, a whole lot less) obnoxious towards fellow Christians. It seems that you are more concerned with defending a compromiser than you are in being gracious in your speech towards Christians.

A word to the wise should be sufficient. We shall see.

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The plain facts of the matter:

  1. some people were saved under the ministry of Billy Graham
  2. Billy Graham from some of the earliest times spoke in interviews things that are contrary to biblical salvation.
  3. Billy Graham is known to accept and stand with groups that clearly DO NOT preach the biblical Gospel.

Those are the facts.

WHY he stands with unbiblical groups, and WHY he says things in interviews that are contrary to the Biblical Gospel is actually NOT IN THE LEAST BIT IMPORTANT.

If he is mentally unstable as you suggest without any evidence or proof. or if he knew exactly what he was doing and why, it makes no difference - some people were saved under his ministry and preaching, but in interviews he teaches a false gospel.

End of story, those are the facts.

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16 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

"Totally sick and demented..." is unacceptable speech toward members who just don't happen to agree with you, John Yurich. You are hereby officially warned, and as soon as I finish this, you will receive warning points. Step back and be a little less (really, a whole lot less) obnoxious towards fellow Christians. It seems that you are more concerned with defending a compromiser than you are in being gracious in your speech towards Christians.

A word to the wise should be sufficient. We shall see.

Graham is not a compromiser if he has always preached from the pulpit the biblical doctrine of salvation. Those statements that Graham stated in those articles about salvation coming about apart from Jesus are not what he really believes if he preaches the biblical doctrine of salvation from the pulpit. It is not logical to believe that Graham believes that salvation can come about apart from Jesus when he preaches the biblical doctrine of salvation.

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Below is from the book two posts above.  That is not compromise?   If not... please tell me what it is.  That is merely one example of many many many.

 

In 1993, Graham repeated this doctrine in an interview with David Frost.
“And I think there is that hunger for God and people are living as best they know how according to the light that they have. Well, I think they’re in a separate category than people like Hitler and people who have just defied God, and shaken their fists at God. … I would say that God, being a God of mercy, we have to rest it right there, and say that God is a God of mercy and love, and how it happens, we don’t know” (The Charlotte Observer, Feb. 16, 1993).

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4 minutes ago, 1611mac said:

Below is from the book two posts above.  That is not compromise?   If not... please tell me what it is.  That is merely one example of many many many.

 

In 1993, Graham repeated this doctrine in an interview with David Frost.
“And I think there is that hunger for God and people are living as best they know how according to the light that they have. Well, I think they’re in a separate category than people like Hitler and people who have just defied God, and shaken their fists at God. … I would say that God, being a God of mercy, we have to rest it right there, and say that God is a God of mercy and love, and how it happens, we don’t know” (The Charlotte Observer, Feb. 16, 1993).

And you actually believe that Graham believes what he stated in 1993? Why would you believe that Graham really believes that salvation can come about apart from Jesus when he preaches the biblical doctrine of salvation? That is totally illogical for anybody to believe that Graham believes that salvation comes about apart from Jesus when he preaches the biblical doctrine of salvation.

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1 minute ago, John Yurich said:

And you actually believe that Graham believes what he stated in 1993? Why would you believe that Graham really believes that salvation can come about apart from Jesus when he preaches the biblical doctrine of salvation? That is totally illogical for anybody to believe that Graham believes that salvation comes about apart from Jesus when he preaches the biblical doctrine of salvation.

John,

I appreciate what I perceive as being your sense of humor; however, Mr. Graham has shown in personal interviews what his view of salvation is...and it's not biblical. 

If this is all just a game to you (along with your other posts in other threads), then have your fun while it lasts. It's no longer humorous...even to me. If it's not a game, and you actually believe what you're posting, then you have a long way to go my friend.

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8 minutes ago, John Yurich said:

And you actually believe that Graham believes what he stated in 1993? Why would you believe that Graham really believes that salvation can come about apart from Jesus when he preaches the biblical doctrine of salvation? That is totally illogical for anybody to believe that Graham believes that salvation comes about apart from Jesus when he preaches the biblical doctrine of salvation.

John, since it seems that there is no reason to believe what anyone says you might as well not reply to posts as I have no reason to believe that you believe what you say. Have a good day my friend.

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1 minute ago, No Nicolaitans said:

John,

I appreciate what I perceive as being your sense of humor; however, Mr. Graham has shown in personal interviews what his view of salvation is...and it's not biblical. 

If this is all just a game to you (along with your other posts in other threads), then have your fun while it lasts. It's no longer humorous...even to me. If it's not a game, and you actually believe what you're posting, then you have a long way to go my friend.

Graham's does not really believe those statements he made in those interviews because of the fact that he preaches the biblical doctrine of salvation from the pulpit. It is totally illogical for anybody to believe that Graham believes those statements he made in those interviews.

2 minutes ago, 1611mac said:

John, since it seems that there is no reason to believe what anyone says you might as well not reply to posts as I have no reason to believe that you believe what you say. Have a good day my friend.

When a minister makes statements that contradict what he preaches from the pulpit then it is only logical to believe that he does not believe those statements made outside of the pulpit.

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On 4/15/2012 at 3:57 AM, irishman said:

Yes, Presbyterians are Catholic, but not "Roman Catholic" same with Lutheran and Episcopalian. They merely broke away from popish control, but kept most of their false doctrine.

I believe Billy Sunday was Presbyterian too, and he had some funny ideas. J. Vernon Mcgee also.

While Billy Sunday and J. Vernon McGee were Presbyterians, they were also fundamentalists. Bob Jones Sr. was a fundamentalist as well. 

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42 minutes ago, John Yurich said:

When a minister makes statements that contradict what he preaches from the pulpit then it is only logical to believe that he does not believe those statements made outside of the pulpit.

Does a pulpit magically make a preacher and/or his words infallible?

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If God calls a man (and we cannot know for sure that he didn't), and that man starts off well in his youth, do we do well to gnash upon him ourselves today? If people were saved in the beginning (and there are many thousands with solid testimonies of salvation from his early crusades) can we completely disregard all fruit because of later bad fruit, and say God never had his hand upon him? I view this topic in light of the example we have of David and Saul. Saul went off the rails bad later in life, but David still refused to verbally castigate him, out of respect for the One who called Saul initially, and whom Saul would eventually give an answer to. The callings of God are without repentance. May I caution us to be careful how we denigrate a man who did great things for God at one time, and leave judgement in the hands of that God?

I do not contradict or doubt all of the examples given of his falling away, nor am I a fan or follower. However, as men of God, we must always humbly remember that but for the grace of God, there stand we all. A little grace from us for a wayward, fallen brother would not be out of line.

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2 minutes ago, weary warrior said:

If God calls a man (and we cannot know for sure that he didn't), and that man starts off well in his youth, do we do well to gnash upon him ourselves today? If people were saved in the beginning (and there are many thousands with solid testimonies of salvation from his early crusades) can we completely disregard all fruit because of later bad fruit, and say God never had his hand upon him? I view this topic in light of the example we have of David and Saul. Saul went off the rails bad later in life, but David still refused to verbally castigate him, out of respect for the One who called Saul initially, and whom Saul would eventually give an answer to. The callings of God are without repentance. May I caution us to be careful how we denigrate a man who did great things for God at one time, and leave judgement in the hands of that God?

I do not contradict or doubt all of the examples given of his falling away, nor am I a fan or follower. However, as men of God, we must always humbly remember that but for the grace of God, there stand we all. A little grace from us for a wayward, fallen brother would not be out of line.

Graham does not really believe those statements in those interviews that contradict the biblical doctrine of salvation that he preached from the pulpit. And thus it is illogical to believe that Graham believes those statements in those interviews that contradict the biblical doctrine of salvation that he preached from the pulpit.

10 minutes ago, 1611mac said:

And why is a preacher responsible for only the words he speaks in the pulpit?  

If a preacher preaches the biblical doctrine of salvation from the pulpit and makes contradictory statements outside of the pulpit then the contradictory statements he makes outside of the pulpit he does not really believe. That is logic.

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40 minutes ago, weary warrior said:

I do not contradict or doubt all of the examples given of his falling away, nor am I a fan or follower. However, as men of God, we must always humbly remember that but for the grace of God, there stand we all. A little grace from us for a wayward, fallen brother would not be out of line.

Well, I think anyone would agree that we all rejoice about the "good" done in his ministry...  In my mind that is a given...

But his teaching has not changed. False doctrine is to be rebuked. If I spouted false doctrine here you would rebuke me... you wouldn't ask how many people have been saved as a result of my preaching Christ.  And then, even at that, you'd have to decide how many "salvations" it takes to "qualify" for non-rebuke.  We have too many compromising pragmatists!

 

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7 minutes ago, 1611mac said:

Well, I think anyone would agree that we all rejoice about the "good" done in his ministry...  In my mind that is a given...

But his teaching has not changed. False doctrine is to be rebuked. If I spouted false doctrine here you would rebuke me... you wouldn't ask how many people have been saved as a result of my preaching Christ.  And then, even at that, you'd have to decide how many "salvations" it takes to "quality" for non-rebuke.  We have to many compromising pragmatists!

 

Graham has never preached nor believed any false doctrine. Just because he made statements outside of the pulpit that seem false does not mean he believes those statements. Graham does not believe those false statements made outside of the pulpit. And it is illogical for anybody to believe that Graham believes those false statements made outside of the pulpit.

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27 minutes ago, John Yurich said:

Graham has never preached nor believed any false doctrine. Just because he made statements outside of the pulpit that seem false does not mean he believes those statements. Graham does not believe those false statements made outside of the pulpit. And it is illogical for anybody to believe that Graham believes those false statements made outside of the pulpit.

John, you are either continuing your game, or you are naive in your understanding.

Popes make statements from pulpits, Benny Hinn makes statements from pulpits, and all kinds of false teachers make statements from behind pulpits, yet the pulpit doesn't make the statement true.

If you actually believe what you're espousing, you have my deepest and most sincere regret for your naivety. However, if you are just espousing shenanigans that are supposedly pointed at Christianity, you are the one looking quite foolish...not us.

Which is it friend? 

Sadly...as much as I appreciated your "uniqueness" at first...I will no longer play your game at this point.

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3 hours ago, John Yurich said:

Graham has never preached nor believed any false doctrine. Just because he made statements outside of the pulpit that seem false does not mean he believes those statements. Graham does not believe those false statements made outside of the pulpit. And it is illogical for anybody to believe that Graham believes those false statements made outside of the pulpit.

Your reasoning is what is illogical. Billy Graham is only a sinful human like everyone else, and that's why we have to examine our beliefs daily to make sure our beliefs fall in line with the Bible. Even if an angel from heaven comes down preaching a "different" gospel, we would have to reject it as false teaching.

Even if, as you say, that false statements outside the pulpit don't really count as his personal beliefs, that would just make him look like a hypocrite and a liar.

I respect Billy Graham, but he isn't infallible when it comes to doctrine and theology.

Edited by Disciple.Luke
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4 hours ago, 1611mac said:

Well, I think anyone would agree that we all rejoice about the "good" done in his ministry...  In my mind that is a given...

But his teaching has not changed. False doctrine is to be rebuked. If I spouted false doctrine here you would rebuke me... you wouldn't ask how many people have been saved as a result of my preaching Christ.  And then, even at that, you'd have to decide how many "salvations" it takes to "qualify" for non-rebuke.  We have too many compromising pragmatists!

 

 Ya'll do what you want, I didn't intend to start a conflict, and I don't now. If my mild observation was offensive, I do apologize. That wasn't my intention. I don't think the subject matter is worth friction between us. But know this. Rebuking someone is going to them in person and telling them they did wrong. Talking to others about the wrong a third person did is gossiping, and even a fallen man of God is still a man of God, and we should be careful. You're right, I would rebuke you if you were on here doing as he did. But I would not get on another forum and spend pages of posts discussing your failures with others. That's all I was trying to point out. But it's all good. Again, I'm want no fuss.

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13 minutes ago, weary warrior said:

 Ya'll do what you want, I didn't intend to start a conflict, and I don't now. If my mild observation was offensive, I do apologize. That wasn't my intention. I don't think the subject matter is worth friction between us. But know this. Rebuking someone is going to them in person and telling them they did wrong. Talking to others about the wrong a third person did is gossiping, and even a fallen man of God is still a man of God, and we should be careful. You're right, I would rebuke you if you were on here doing as he did. But I would not get on another forum and spend pages of posts discussing your failures with others. That's all I was trying to point out. But it's all good. Again, I'm want no fuss.

WW, you nailed it.

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

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