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Shame For A Woman To Speak In Church.

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Funny, I get a different message concerning opinions.



<snip>

Everyone has opinions on this board. And many post them over and over.

My opinions were not accepted because they were against popular belief.

But the fact is, I had Scripture that clearly backed my opinions.


Oh stop being sore! If everyone agreed with you who would you have to argue with? No one will EVER agree 60% on doctrine, let alone 100% - we tell you where we stand and you ALWAYS tell us where you stand - you don't see us complaining like a child that Johnny got the cake and Suzie didn't. That shows the attitude of a sore loser, a bully and a person that is not 100% behind there own convictions. If you were you would rest easy in the truth. Besides - you give us stuff to think about - it's our own responsibility to check the Word and see whose right - not yours.

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If it were directly against Scripture, John would have written a reprimand in his epistle. It is clear that he did not.

As I said, if a pastor gives a woman permission to speak, then she is not usurping authority. A woman could lead the services in such a case.


How does that fit with a woman keeping silence in church?!

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Here's another
1 Timothy 2:8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but tobe in silence.


si·lence
noun
1.
absence of any sound or noise; stillness.
2.
the state or fact of being silent; muteness.



Word Origin & History
silence

early 13c., from O.Fr. silence "absence of sound," from L. silentium "a being silent," from silens, prp. of silere "be quiet or still," of unknown origin. Replaced O.E. swige. The verb (trans.) is attested from 1590s, from the noun. Silencer "mechanism that stifles the sound of a motor or firearm" first

I don't know, It just appears to be saying just what it says. nothing more and nothing less. "Testifying" is not "absence of sound" or "quiet" So, I'm still not settled on this; why allow one without the other?

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heart, you make a good point...however... :icon_smile:

The word silence (in the Timothy verses) comes from the word hesuchia - which means silence absolutely, but it also means quietness in the sense of peaceable. 1Tim. 2:2 uses the word hesuchion for quiet when he says "that we may lead a quiet and peacable life...)" I'm sure Paul didn't mean we were to live totally silently...(nor did he mean a woman couldn't point out the meaning of a word :icon_mrgreen: )

Testifying is not the same as teaching. And testimony time is under the moderation of the pastor, so he is ceding the floor, as it were, to those who testify, but he is not ceding authority. And, if a woman's hubby (if she's married) has no problem with her testifying, then she is submitting in the areas she should. Testifying and singing both fall under the authority of the pastor, so women who participate are not usurping anything. (wilch, I gotta say - I don't think women shouting praise in a service is proper...jmo)

I'm still not on board with a woman praying if there are men present, though. Leadership in (mixed) services, whether it's prayer or speaking, belongs to the men, imo. And I think that's based on scriptural teachings. (However, 1 Corinthians 11 throws a wrench into the conversation, because it talks about a woman praying with her head covered...)

I'm thinking that both sets of verses you posted have an awful lot to do with a wife's attitude towards her husband. And a whole lot to do with women improperly disrupting services...

As to 2 John, there are a couple of schools of thought about who the elect lady is. Usage of pronoun would seem to indicate that it is not actually a person, but a local church. Possibly John's church.

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Happy,
What you're saying makes sense, and I'm more inclined to agree than disagree. But, at the same time, I'm reluctant to rely on Greek words, because they very often were translated into different words in English. My belief is that English words should have English definitions. In other words, at the time the KJB was written, the common man didn't have the luxury of Googling the Greek meaning as we do today. I personally believe it was written to be understood in English, by the English without having to rely on another language.. Am I making sense?

Like when I researched the word "ordained" used in Acts 13:48, I found that it's Greek word tasso, was also translated as "addicted". Today, when we think "addicted" we think "druggie" "crack head".or whatever. The two words are undoubtedly closely related, but I personally believe they don't mean exactly the same thing or God, in His providence, would not have seen fit to allow them to be different in our KJB, assuming we believe the KJB is the preserved Word of God for English speaking people. But, I;m with you; I felt quite uneasy as the woman was praying in service. It just didn't seem right, I'm going to have to meditate on this for awhile.

Edited by heartstrings

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Here's another
1 Timothy 2:8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but tobe in silence.


si·lence
noun
1.
absence of any sound or noise; stillness.
2.
the state or fact of being silent; muteness.



Word Origin & History
silence

early 13c., from O.Fr. silence "absence of sound," from L. silentium "a being silent," from silens, prp. of silere "be quiet or still," of unknown origin. Replaced O.E. swige. The verb (trans.) is attested from 1590s, from the noun. Silencer "mechanism that stifles the sound of a motor or firearm" first

I don't know, It just appears to be saying just what it says. nothing more and nothing less. "Testifying" is not "absence of sound" or "quiet" So, I'm still not settled on this; why allow one without the other?
Notice Paul said "I suffer not a woman..."? I believe it was Paul's personal preference. He did not allow it.

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Here's another
1 Timothy 2:8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


Lets take a look at the scripture you provided.
  • Vrs 8 - men praying, not woman
  • Vrses 9-10 - woman "profess godliness" through good works and modesty - is this not a testimony? Is a woman's testimony not maybe a "silent" one through actions? Food for thought?
  • Vrs 11-12 - Her silence is in conjunction with teaching and the context of the book is church leadership, doctrine and preaching - so her silence must be in context with those aspects only.

Paul then goes on to explain why:

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
  • Vrs 13 - Adam first, not Eve.
  • Vrs 14 - Eve deceived, not Adam and this is important as Adam was NOT deceived - he knew the consequences and took the responsibility of her sin on himself - this is the same responsibility of the husband and father - he teaches and guides his wife and family in all things spiritual - he is the head of the home for this very reason.

Vrs 15 though is one I am still working on as I do not believe a woman is saved only through child bearing only if they "continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety" Thoughts on this would be appreciated.

So the answer would seem to be that any vocalization of a woman in a meeting is not acceptable besides that of praise as that is not once mentioned.

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heart, I understand where you are coming from...and I don't think we have to run to the Greek for every little thing. But I do think it's important for us to remember that words change in meaning over the years. The old English used was specific and known completely by those of that time. But nowadays, people aren't always educated in the classics, nor do they understand a lot of the Old English (or the King James English, as many people - even nonChristians - put it.)

One word in particular that has been misunderstood is "conversation." When the KJB uses that word, it is speaking of lifestyle, not speech. But I have heard people present it as speech. Now granted, speech is part of our lifestyle, but the word in the KJB encompasses so much more.

SFIC - I don't think it was just Paul's opinion...that would justify feminists who call Paul a misogynist. In other scripture, Paul specifically states it is him, not the Lord. I think he would do the same thing here. As to it simply referring to speaking in tongues, I don't think so, or he wouldn't have repeated essentially the same thing in Timothy. As to the elect lady - that is why I said there are two schools of thought. I don't think it was an individual woman. But there it is - it's opinion, with pros and cons to both. :icon_smile:

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There also is a difference between discussions and teaching.


yes, Bro Matt, there is a difference, and I believe you know the difference, but perhaps this is not the place for it. (I didn't bring the subject up, remember?)
There is one lady, whose name I forgot that has a masters degree or something, and she is doing much more than voicing an opinion.

Yes, here we go, seems when we hit home some people get their dander up!

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Lets take a look at the scripture you provided.
  • Vrs 8 - men praying, not woman
  • Vrses 9-10 - woman "profess godliness" through good works and modesty - is this not a testimony? Is a woman's testimony not maybe a "silent" one through actions? Food for thought? I've known and worked with many people, women included, who "professed godliness" out in the world. So that doesn't necessarily mean the "professing" here was in church either.
  • Vrs 11-12 - Her silence is in conjunction with teaching and the context of the book is church leadership, doctrine and preaching - so her silence must be in context with those aspects only.

Paul then goes on to explain why:

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
  • Vrs 13 - Adam first, not Eve.
  • Vrs 14 - Eve deceived, not Adam and this is important as Adam was NOT deceived - he knew the consequences and took the responsibility of her sin on himself - this is the same responsibility of the husband and father - he teaches and guides his wife and family in all things spiritual - he is the head of the home for this very reason.

Vrs 15 though is one I am still working on as I do not believe a woman is saved only through child bearing only if they "continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety" Thoughts on this would be appreciated. THis is one of things I keep harping on: We need to find the ROOT MEANING of the word. Basically, the word saved means "preserved" or "not wasted". You can "save money" or be "saved from Hell". The verse here is speaking, I believe, about a woman's intellect, wisdom, and knowledge being utilized and not wasted via her training and raising Godly children. That's the way I understand it. It has nothing to do with salvation from perdition.

So the answer would seem to be that any vocalization of a woman in a meeting is not acceptable besides that of praise as that is not once mentioned.

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Keeping silence can also mean not being argumentive, contentious or interuptive. Women are not supposed to try to take control of a service since many women like to take control of things. It doesn't always have to mean not being able to talk or make a peep. I would think that God would want everyone to proclaim and praise his name in church. The problem is that many churches today are controlled by the women even in they are not preaching from the pulpit.

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Vrs 15 though is one I am still working on as I do not believe a woman is saved only through child bearing only if they "continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety" Thoughts on this would be appreciated.


First it doesn't say the godly woman described is going to be saved "through" child bearing, it says "in" child bearing. I always understood that to be related to Genesis 3:16 where after the fall God told the woman: "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;". In other words I think God, through Paul, is saying that as a general rule of thumb he is going to be a little easier on a godly lady during the time of childbirth than on a woman who is not as godly, be that via an actual reduction of the difficulty of her childbirth process, or perhaps just more grace to deal with it.

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I believe the "keep silence in Church" is in the context of tongues. They were not permitted to speak in tongues.


Its pretty clear the woman was to "learn in silence". Tongues was part of the passage, but not the entire context.

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First it doesn't say the godly woman described is going to be saved "through" child bearing, it says "in" child bearing. I always understood that to be related to Genesis 3:16 where after the fall God told the woman: "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;". In other words I think God, through Paul, is saying that as a general rule of thumb he is going to be a little easier on a godly lady during the time of childbirth than on a woman who is not as godly, be that via an actual reduction of the difficulty of her childbirth process, or perhaps just more grace to deal with it.



Look at the grammar. "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow.... AND....they conception.

That's two punishments IMHO..... He will multiply the woman's sorrow. (He did that to the man, too). He also multiplied her conception. With eternal life, my guess is that God would have made it to where she maybe had a baby every decade...every century....if life would have been eternal, then if women had babies every two years, the earth would be overpopulated if nobody ever died. When they sinned, now they only had a short time to populate the earth. God had to multiply the conception to be sure reproduction would happen, and happen quickly enough to populate the earth. Then after that, he applied the sorrow to the bringing forth of children, which could mean the pain, but could also just mean the difficulty in raising children as well, or c, all of the above. And yes being saved in childbearing to me means she will have a better time, but I am not sure how much that applies as obviously Christian women still died in childbirth...and similarly, there are very obedient children who grow up to die an early death (thus obedient kids don't always have a long life). Obviously God's promises are within His will, of course.

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1Ti 2:1 ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
1Ti 2:9 ¶ In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

In the context of, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection," how can it pertain to only speaking in tongues? That is impossible.

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1Ti 2:1 ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
1Ti 2:9 ¶ In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

In the context of, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection," how can it pertain to only speaking in tongues? That is impossible.


True, I should have looked it up. I knew the whole context wasn't, but I was thinking of another passage that did include tongues.

Yes, women are supposed to keep silence in church. I personally think it probably includes public testimonies in front of men, but obviously in our day, nobody really thinks that so it doesn't matter.... I personally am not comfortable speaking in church unless its to ask for a prayer request, or sing a song.

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True, I should have looked it up. I knew the whole context wasn't, but I was thinking of another passage that did include tongues.

Yes, women are supposed to keep silence in church. I personally think it probably includes public testimonies in front of men, but obviously in our day, nobody really thinks that so it doesn't matter.... I personally am not comfortable speaking in church unless its to ask for a prayer request, or sing a song.


Jesus allowed women to publicly request things of him and He is in charge.

Mark 7:25-30



Luke 8:47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.

They weren't allowed to teach or preach but to make prayer requests or testimonies/witnesses concerning the Lord. I have no problem with it.

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Jesus allowed women to publicly request things of him and He is in charge.

Mark 7:25-30



Luke 8:47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.

They weren't allowed to teach or preach but to make prayer requests or testimonies/witnesses concerning the Lord. I have no problem with it.

The difference being, this was a public place, not in a church.

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