So where can I reply concerning the tithing thread?

[John81]

The first example makes sense, but the second is not an equal comparison. Both Joe and Bob are having increase in the second example, Joes increase is simply greater. In the first example Bob gained nothing at all, in the second he still made money, just not as much as Joe.




I think this is the key to what you are misunderstanding. That is not the biblical meaning of increase.

How is Bob increasing if he is falling behind? If he is making less money this year than the previous year he is not increasing but rather decreasing.

This is no different than if they were raising cattle and Bob's cattle failed to breed or even failed to breed and three died. Bob had no increase in either case and in the latter he experienced decrease the same as factory Bob.

[Guest Guest]

How is Bob increasing if he is falling behind? If he is making less money this year than the previous year he is not increasing but rather decreasing.

Like I said, you are misunderstanding the scriptural meaning of increase. Provide scripture that defines increase anything like you do. Bob is working and he is gaining money that he did not have before, that is increase. In order for Bob to make no increase he would either have to make no money at all or have work related expenses that were greater than the amount he made.

Heartstrings, in your example Jose made an increase of 8000, and Bob made an increase of 800. The money Bob had to put into his crop was expenses. Therefor he only made 800 instead of 8000 as Jose did.

[John81]

Like I said, you are misunderstanding the scriptural meaning of increase. Provide scripture that defines increase anything like you do. Bob is working and he is gaining money that he did not have before, that is increase. In order for Bob to make no increase he would either have to make no money at all or have work related expenses that were greater than the amount he made.

Heartstrings, in your example Jose made an increase of 8000, and Bob made an increase of 800. The money Bob had to put in to his crop was expenses. Therefor he only made 800 instead of 8000 as Jose did.

Bob has a great many expenses as well and if he doesn't make enough to cover them how is that any different than the above example? How could he be seen as having increase?

If someone offers me a job for a day and says they will pay me 20 dollars and it costs me 25 dollars for gas, food and some special equipment or clothing then how could the fact I earned 20 dollars be seen as increase?

[Guest Guest]

Bob has a great many expenses as well and if he doesn't make enough to cover them how is that any different than the above example? How could he be seen as having increase?

If someone offers me a job for a day and says they will pay me 20 dollars and it costs me 25 dollars for gas, food and some special equipment or clothing then how could the fact I earned 20 dollars be seen as increase?

Difference being expenses like food are living expenses, you need the food no matter if you work or not. What ever gas you might burn going to work and what ever "special equipment" you say is needed that you would not otherwise buy might be listed as "work expenses" if you want. However, in most lines of non-self employed work, that isn't going to be much of an issue. Few non-self employed people are going to spend more than they make on work related expenses. If for some strange reason they did, no, they wouldn't make an increase, but it is unlikely they would stay at the job long either. lol

[John81]

That doesn't make sense that business expeses is all that can count with regards to whether one is making increase or not.

If the farmer with a hundred head of cattle must eat several head during the year they failed to breed then he has suffered loss even though eating isn't considered a business expense.

If last year Bob made 30,000 dollars and his regular expenses (simply living) were at 28,000 dollars then he increased by 2,000 dollars. However, if the next year the cost of living increases while his paycheck doesn't and he still makes 30,000 dollars but his regular expenses now equal 32,000 dollars, Bob has suffered loss, no increase at all, just the same as the farmer who not only didn't gain any new cattle but had to eat several of his original cattle just to survive.

[Guest Guest]

That doesn't make sense that business expeses is all that can count with regards to whether one is making increase or not.

If the farmer with a hundred head of cattle must eat several head during the year they failed to breed then he has suffered loss even though eating isn't considered a business expense.

If last year Bob made 30,000 dollars and his regular expenses (simply living) were at 28,000 dollars then he increased by 2,000 dollars. However, if the next year the cost of living increases while his paycheck doesn't and he still makes 30,000 dollars but his regular expenses now equal 32,000 dollars, Bob has suffered loss, no increase at all, just the same as the farmer who not only didn't gain any new cattle but had to eat several of his original cattle just to survive.

The big difference is that you are counting the money Bob makes at the job as if it was already in his pocket. That is not the case. The cows the farmer had WERE ALREADY HIS. The money Bob made at the Job wasn't, he had to earn it by working, that earning = increase. :Green

BTW I would like to see a biblical passage that defines increase as you do please. :wink

[John81]

There is no biblical passage for NT Christians to be under the tithe.

Increase means increase, how can there be any question about that?

The tithe an agrarian society was told to give doesn't equate to a paycheck society.

Scripture is clear God wants Christians to give from a heart surrendered to Christ not from a duty to keep the law.

[Guest Guest]

There is no biblical passage for NT Christians to be under the tithe.

Increase means increase, how can there be any question about that?

The tithe an agrarian society was told to give doesn't equate to a paycheck society.

Now we are back to square one I suppose. Increase does indeed mean increase, but your apparent opinion of what increase means does not mean increase. I suppose it is best just to let the issue drop now because we just aren't going to be able to reach agreement. I think the meaning of "increase" has been laid out well enough to show the biblical meaning of the word. :Green

Scripture is clear God wants Christians to give from a heart surrendered to Christ not from a duty to keep the law.

Agreed, but God doesn't want us to read scripture, go to church, etc. just because it is the "law" either, we are supposed to WANT to do right because we love him, not because we "must".

[Guest Guest]

Agreed' date=' but God doesn't want us to read scripture, go to church, etc. just because it is the "law" either, we are supposed to WANT to do right because we love him, not because we "must".[/quote']

Seth!

No matter how much a person (husband and wife, many times) makes---we are to tithe 10% of our gross income. Like I have stated, many people tithe more. 1O% is a baseline. Above and beyond that...would go into offerings. I find it best to give to The Lord (His church) first...and the rest of our lives will fall into place. God takes care of His kids. :smile

[John81]

Now we are back to square one I suppose. Increase does indeed mean increase, but your apparent opinion of what increase means does not mean increase. I suppose it is best just to let the issue drop now because we just aren't going to be able to reach agreement. I think the meaning of "increase" has been laid out well enough to show the biblical meaning of the word. :Green




Agreed, but God doesn't want us to read scripture, go to church, etc. just because it is the "law" either, we are supposed to WANT to do right because we love him, not because we "must".

I've really been enjoying discussing this with you Seth but I agree, it seems we've reached an impasse. Thank you for the fine discussion!

With regards to your last paragraph, the difference between reading Scripture and going to church and that of the tithe, is that God specifically instructs Christians to be in the Word and to attend church while He does not tell Christians to tithe. That said, you are correct that God wants us to read the Word and attend church because our heart is right with Him and not because we "have to".

In any event, thank you for the fine discussion Seth; I found it to be most enlightening and beneficial. :thumb

[John81]

No matter how much a person (husband and wife, many times) makes---we are to tithe 10% of our gross income. Like I have stated, many people tithe more. 1O% is a baseline. Above and beyond that...would go into offerings. I find it best to give to The Lord (His church) first...and the rest of our lives will fall into place. God takes care of His kids. :smile

Actually the NT does not command Christians to tithe. If the Lord leads them to tithe, then they should. If the Lord leads someone to tithe and then leads them to give more, they should. Regardless of how much their income is, the Christian should submit to the will of God and give to whom and what however much He would have us to when He would have us to.

For us, I spent much time in prayer with the Lord and He gave me the amount to give each Sunday. Prior to becoming a member of our church the Lord laid it on my heart to double that amount once I was a member. We give this amount each Sunday. At times during the year the Lord will sometimes let me know He wants me to give more; either for regular giving or for some special or specific need of the church. Beyond that, we also help support a missionary in India and give to several other ministries that give help to the needy and spread the Gospel of Christ.

[JerryNumbers]

I see all sorts of people around here that just barely get by or fall farther and farther behind each year. Most make no increase at all while a few make a very tiny increase.

Just because one is working and getting paid doesn't mean they are getting any increase. Millions live on subsistence incomes.

Many that I see are falling behind, but the reason is they are neck deep in debt because of their very own lust to have possession. That is right, they are stealing from God to fulfill their very own lust, and the majority of their income is going towards paying the many debts they have.

If, that's if, they would obey God, many of them would not be neck deep in debt and unable to give God his portion.

I could follow their example and use the same excuse, and for many that is all it is, and excuse. But before God it will not hold water. Oh, I'm not going to follow their example, one can be content and not go out there and buy everything that the business or credit card companies with put on credit for them.

Seems for many, they think if they have a credit limit of $5,000.00 or $500,000.00 or even $2,000,000.00, they feel they must use every penny of it up. Oh, that is the main reason America is in so much trouble right now, people can't pay their debts, many can't even make their house payments.

[John81]

Many that I see are falling behind, but the reason is they are neck deep in debt because of their very own lust to have possession. That is right, they are stealing from God to fulfill their very own lust, and the majority of their income is going towards paying the many debts they have.

If, that's if, they would obey God, many of them would not be neck deep in debt and unable to give God his portion.

I could follow their example and use the same excuse, and for many that is all it is, and excuse. But before God it will not hold water. Oh, I'm not going to follow their example, one can be content and not go out there and buy everything that the business or credit card companies with put on credit for them.

Seems for many, they think if they have a credit limit of $5,000.00 or $500,000.00 or even $2,000,000.00, they feel they must use every penny of it up. Oh, that is the main reason America is in so much trouble right now, people can't pay their debts, many can't even make their house payments.

That's true Jerry, but these folks are not being good stewards of what God provides for them. They are not falling behind because they are not seeing increase, they are falling behind because they choose to spend their increase and then spend more on top of that.

There are many older folks on fixed incomes that are truly falling behind.

Now, with the economy being so bad, there are also some who had counted on dividends from stock investments to get them buy who now are forced to return to work in order to survive.

[Guest Guest]

[quote="John81"][quote="candlelight"]

No matter how much a person (husband and wife, many times) makes---we are to tithe 10% of our gross income. Like I have stated, many people tithe more. 1O% is a baseline. Above and beyond that...would go into offerings. I find it best to give to The Lord (His church) first...and the rest of our lives will fall into place. God takes care of His kids. :smile[/quote]

Actually the NT does not command Christians to tithe. If the Lord leads them to tithe, then they should. If the Lord leads someone to tithe and then leads them to give more, they should. Regardless of how much their income is, the Christian should submit to the will of God and give to whom and what however much He would have us to when He would have us to.

For us, I spent much time in prayer with the Lord and He gave me the amount to give each Sunday. Prior to becoming a member of our church the Lord laid it on my heart to double that amount once I was a member. We give this amount each Sunday. At times during the year the Lord will sometimes let me know He wants me to give more; either for regular giving or for some special or specific need of the church. Beyond that, we also help support a missionary in India and give to several other ministries that give help to the needy and spread the Gospel of Christ.[/quote]


Except that EVERYTHING in this life is owned by God Almighty! 10% is the smallest portion that we (hubby and I) can give back to Jesus Christ and His church. It is just a mere fraction of what God has so richly blessed us with in this earthly life. :smile

[b]Acts 20:35[/b]...I have shewed (showed) you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said,[color=#FF0000] It is more blessed to give than to receive.[/color] [b]KJV 1611 AV.[/b]

[John81]

[quote="candlelight"]


Except that EVERYTHING in this life is owned by God Almighty! 10% is the smallest portion that we (hubby and I) can give back to Jesus Christ and His church. It is just a mere fraction of what God has so richly blessed us with in this earthly life. :smile

[b]Acts 20:35[/b]...I have shewed (showed) you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said,[color=#FF0000] It is more blessed to give than to receive.[/color] [b]KJV 1611 AV.[/b][/quote]

Of course everything belongs to God. The point is, God commanded the Jews to give 10% but He expects Christians to give according as He directs them in accord as to how He prospers them.

I've read of some men who as they grew wealthier they increased their giving. A few of them, by the time they were older folks had got to the point where they could live very well off of what they already had and from that point onward they gave 100% of their increase to the Lord.

There are also some who can't feed their children well on what they make and anything they give is taking food from their childrens mouths. Those of us who are better off during such times are supposed to help care for them and to make up for their lack. If situations ever reverse, they should help us during that time and help make up for our lack.

Each payday I take out in cash, first thing, what I'll place in the collection plate Sunday. We also give to other ministries each month and when the Lord directs, we give more and/or we also give to others.