So where can I reply concerning the tithing thread?

[PastorHarrison]

1. I have given real world experience and the fact that people today are exploiting God's own when they preaching tithing. I have given several examples. Its not about ME being hurt its about countless people being hurt because of the false teaching. I'm not hurt by the teaching myself. I haven't believed it for more than 15 years. In that time God has blessed me beyond my wildest dreams. He has never cursed me or forsaken me. Never. If God was going to kill me or put me in the hospital because I didn't tithe... wouldn't you think He had done it by now?

Answers: 1a. Experience and feelings elevated above ahead Scripture is a pentecostal doctrine - not and FIBC doctrine. 1b. Preaching tithing (although I don't preach it) is only considered exploiting God's word to they who don't tithe and hate to be reminded of their disobedience to Scripture. 2. Your examples are noted, but they do not satisfy God's requirements for giving of one's blessings for the furtherance of the Gospel and that is the responsibility of the church, which is why the tithe was taken to the church - not to whomever one opted to give it. 3. The Jehovah's Wickednesses use the "people getting hurt" flag to conceal their false doctrine of no hell, but that doesn't make their claims any less absurd. 4. Glad to hear you've been blessed for the last 15 yrs.... 5. Last question - no, if God was waiting in heaven with a stick to whack disobedient folks....there'd be a lot of dead cult members and devil worshippers, so obviously the answer is no.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; My list of what was nailed to the cross is the entirty of the "handwriting and ordinances" EVERYTHING.So now you list the ones Christ did not nail to His cross?

That list of everything includes lying, cheating, adultery, fornication, stealing, promiscuity, covetousness, drunkeness, witchcraft, sorceries, idolatry, disrespect to parents, rebellious on and on and on and on..... do you really think these were nailed to the cross and hence are no long prohibited? Must I really write 1/4 of the O.T. into a response to show that not ALL the law was set aside? Think Peter was wrong in setting Jewish law prohibitions upon gentile Christians to abstain from blood, things strangled? Think divorce is okee-dokee now that Christ went to the cross? I have a better idea than posting them all.... read your Bible. Yes some ceremonial laws and dietary laws were done away with - but not all the law & the prophets were nailed to the cross. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.....

I have never made the tithe strickly about the law. It never was. It was given before the law. Its strickly about Isreal as a nation. A nation that no longer has the temple and the storehouse whereby to obey Mal 3:10.

The church must send & support preachers as missionaries Rom 10:14-15. If God's people got greedy and quite tithing, the church can't aford to keep the lights on and send a preacher across the street let alone across the globe. I personally don't preach on tithing....folks that read a Bible need not be told it is their Christian duty before God to support the church.

Yet, I know we have some who drive in and park on the parking lot, walk into the nice airconditioned building, sit in the nice padded pew on the carpeted floor in the well lit sanctuary and listen in comfort to the pastor who had to eat and pay his bills too, preach the message the Lord has laid on his heart to feed the sheep and think themselves exempt from supporting the church, exempt from giving to send missionaries, exempt from sending a little something extra to the missionary in the jungle, exempt from helping buy crayons with which the children will color pictures of Noah's ark as they learn the scriptures..... exempt from paying tithes which will support the pastor while he drives a bag of groceries to the widow out in the hills...or while he performs visits at the hospital with the sick and dying or while he's out knocking on doors spreading the gospel....

I am glad not everyone considers themselves exempt from tithing but thats just me....

[Guest Guest]

PastorHarrison wrote;

Answers: 1a. Experience and feelings elevated above ahead Scripture is a pentecostal doctrine - not and FIBC doctrine. 1b. Preaching tithing (although I don't preach it) is only considered exploiting God's word to they who don't tithe and hate to be reminded of their disobedience to Scripture. 2. Your examples are noted, but they do not satisfy God's requirements for giving of one's blessings for the furtherance of the Gospel and that is the responsibility of the church, which is why the tithe was taken to the church - not to whomever one opted to give it. 3. The Jehovah's Wickednesses use the "people getting hurt" flag to conceal their false doctrine of no hell, but that doesn't make their claims any less absurd. 4. Glad to hear you've been blessed for the last 15 yrs.... 5. Last question - no, if God was waiting in heaven with a stick to whack disobedient folks....there'd be a lot of dead cult members and devil worshippers, so obviously the answer is no.

1a. I never said anything about my experience or anyone elses experience having anything to do with you have made it to be. I have given an example from experience that shows that Mal 3:10 is not for anyone other than Isreal as a nation. It has nothing to do with a pentecostal experience. Somewhere truth reaches and touches our lives. It either proves it self real or all you have is a doctrine in word only. Nothing in deed. Do you understand? You can't dismiss what I have written just by saying it pentecostal. I am not pentecostal at all.

1b. For the furtherance of the Gospel? We might should make that a thread unto itself because I honestly believe you are very mistaken and its a lengthy subject. The Gospel has been preached to all the world for generation after generation. The apostles fulfilled the great commision before the their timely death took place. Or do you think they disobeyed? Its is also witnessed in...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

The great commision was fulfilled A LONG LONG time ago. Noone is trying to finish the work of the apostles. They did it themselves.

We are the generation of those that either accepted or rejected the Gospel. We are the godless generations of Gospel rejecters. Yet, everyone is going around saying they have to fulfill the great commission. You know we have to win people to Jesus to keep Jesus's words.... Don't get me wrong. I don't think the door is shut, but don't tell me every church that is preaching the tithe is doing so to fulfill the great commission.... Nonsense. Most of them are doing so to keep a job and get paid. Pay what they call a preacher, pay the secretary, the janitor, and etc and etc.... The Gospel has become BIG BUSINESS and it more about money than it is to do with anything to do with the truth.

Question....

Do you think Paul lived off the tithe or any of the apostles? DO you think the Apostle to Gentiles made his living because someone gave to him to spread the Gospel? Before you answer... remember

1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
1Co 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

Also remember when

Act 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Now someone gets in their head that have to go somewhere and preach the Gospel... they have to go on dubutation for 3 years..... get their monthly income paid for and then they can go to where "God called them" and fulfill the great commission. Happens all the time in IFB churches. Nonsense.

Take all the nonsense away and you don't have a great big huge bill that has to get paid by the tithe from anyone.

3. I never said one thing about any JW's. People's monies are being taken from them in IFB church because they are told God will curse them if they don't. That not in a JW assembly. Its in IFB churchs everywhere.

4. I am glad your blessed as well. I truely am, but its not because of your obiediance to giving the tithe. Its because you got what you did not desire. The reason you got it is because Christ (who deserved better) gave Himself for you. He became poor that you might become rich. He didn't become poor so you can make Him rich.

Usually the first thing people say when you say something against tithing.... is..... "that how I have everything I have"... "if I quit giving the tithe....God will kill me".... I can't count the amount of times I have heard that...... Even in my own family. Nonsense.

[JerryNumbers]

I find your thoughts about the great commission quite amazing. Never heard a Baptist say that it has been completed.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Matt 28:18-20 (KJV)

That is a direct command to Jesus' Churches and it will not be complete until the coming of Christ for His own.

[PastorHarrison]

1a. I never said anything about my experience or anyone elses experience having anything to do with you have made it to be. I have given an example from experience that shows that Mal 3:10 is not for anyone other than Isreal as a nation. It has nothing to do with a pentecostal experience. I am not pentecostal at all.

Didn't say you are a pentecostal IItj, I said setting experiences & feelings as foundation of doctrine or opinion, rather than Scripture, is a Pentecostal theology, practice and doctrine. Malachi cannot be dismissed into obscure generalities applicable exclusively to the Jewish nation, far too many teachings & truths therein to try it. I.E. Chapter 1 conveys how that God is worthy of one's best, not his left over crippled offerings...that we gentiles will hold his name in greatness (vs 11) and how that bringing unworthy things unto the Lord is unacceptable in God's sight. Yes, it is written by and to Jews if Israel, but it's content, doctrinal truths and spiritual applications far outreach it's setting just as Exodus reaches far beyond its setting. In it are contained "eternal security, Baptism by water and fire, work & ministry of the Holy Spirit, the resurrection of Christ etc. Dismissing Malachi offhand to get rid of tithing... is like dismissing Malachi to get rid of God's hatred of divorce

The great commision was fulfilled A LONG LONG time ago. Noone is trying to finish the work of the apostles. They did it themselves.

The Great commission is on-going to the "uttermost part of the earth" and is carried beyond the Apostles by the ordaining of Preachers {elders} who are sent by the church (Rom 10) to preach Jesus. Arguably that has been accomplished many times over in the ensuing 2000 yrs since the great commission was given, but that by no means justifies disobeying the Holy Spirit's direction to continue sending preachers in Rom 10.

We are the generation of those that either accepted or rejected the Gospel. We are the godless generations of Gospel rejecters. Yet, everyone is going around saying they have to fulfill the great commission. You know we have to win people to Jesus to keep Jesus's words.... Don't get me wrong. I don't think the door is shut, but don't tell me every church that is preaching the tithe is doing so to fulfill the great commission.... Nonsense. Most of them are doing so to keep a job and get paid. Pay what they call a preacher, pay the secretary, the janitor, and etc and etc.... The Gospel has become BIG BUSINESS and it more about money than it is to do with anything to do with the truth.

In part I agree, we are in a godless generation of the end times, and yes, some preachers are in it for the money {I could put some names here but I won't, God knows em already anyway}. However I'll presume for common sense's sake you are attending a local church where you pray one for another, fellowship with believers, encourage, exhort and lift up the brethren, study and are attentive to the preaching of God's word from an ordained pastor who has the call of God on him. That would mean someone's got to pay for 1. A building 2. power & utilities 3. taxes, expenditures, phones, baptistry, bibles, hymnals et al 4. A Preacher and in some cases 5. a Secretary 6. A janitor or cleaning crew unless men & women of the church give of more than just their $ but also their time.

To answer - yes of course Paul lived off the tithes and offerings of the church, which were sent to him regularly.

Now someone gets in their head that have to go somewhere and preach the Gospel... they have to go on dubutation for 3 years..... get their monthly income paid for and then they can go to where "God called them" and fulfill the great commission. Happens all the time in IFB churches. Nonsense.

Abused widely? Yeah probably a lot. Debutation? Unfortunately necessary - otherwise how is the man to eat, pay bills and support his family whilst preparing to move to Yugoslavia etc? The Disciples didn't roll up their nets and bring them, nor drag their fishing boats along as they went preaching. David didn't keep a herd of sheep out back to live on after the lord made him king. They which preach the gospel live of the gospel....and that means they're supported by the tithes of the members of the body of Christ in the local church.

4. I am glad your blessed as well. I truely am, but its not because of your obiediance to giving the tithe. Its because you got what you did not desire. The reason you got it is because Christ (who deserved better) gave Himself for you. He became poor that you might become rich. He didn't become poor so you can make Him rich.

God ordered the Egyptians to give abundantly to the children of Israel before they left. He made them rich with jewels, clothes, flocks and herds....so that they could then give of those moneys / flocks - tithes for the construction of the Tabernacle, support of the priests etc. The priests made their living off the tithes of the people. The principle of tithing is as plain as day. God give us and we give back....

If you ever heard the gospel, it was because someone tithed and supported the church, which payed and supported a preacher, who preached instead of working at the factory every Sunday, to people who sat in the church, which costed money to operate, and some got saved under the preaching, and they witnessed and gave out gospel tracts and free Bibles (which cost money) payed for by tithes, and some got saved....and someone reached you with it.

Yes, it is over-run with religious ticks and moochers robbing God and people alike, I agree. Yes it is filled with wasted tithes spent of absurd lavish living... yes, some many preachers are con-artists & wolves who've found an easy ride. BUT there are also some old fashioned Bible preaching, lean living, barely making it country preachers who just make it just by the mercy of God week to week. Men who don't buy Christmas, don't give their wives pretty gifts nor birthday presents to their children because they can't afford it on their salary. But they love the Lord and spend the days visiting the sick, encouraging the wayward, giving the gospel to the lost and conducing funerals, weddings, and visitation during the day. Some of those men made 10X more in secular jobs but they're called to preach....so they're preachers. It isn't all fat living and free rides IItj.... for some its a bitter challenge for them and their families and many of them die with nothing to their names but a life spent for others. They have set up for themselves "riches in heaven". Tithes support those men...feed their families...clothe their children and so God said, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn.

[Guest Guest]

Didn't say you are a pentecostal IItj, I said setting experiences & feelings as foundation of doctrine or opinion, rather than Scripture, is a Pentecostal theology, practice and doctrine. Malachi cannot be dismissed into obscure generalities applicable exclusively to the Jewish nation, far too many teachings & truths therein to try it. I.E. Chapter 1 conveys how that God is worthy of one's best, not his left over crippled offerings...that we gentiles will hold his name in greatness (vs 11) and how that bringing unworthy things unto the Lord is unacceptable in God's sight. Yes, it is written by and to Jews if Israel, but it's content, doctrinal truths and spiritual applications far outreach it's setting just as Exodus reaches far beyond its setting. In it are contained "eternal security, Baptism by water and fire, work & ministry of the Holy Spirit, the resurrection of Christ etc. Dismissing Malachi offhand to get rid of tithing... is like dismissing Malachi to get rid of God's hatred of divorce

Often time people try to drag every sorted detail of Malachi into the idea of the tithe but we know that is nonsense. We know its not rightly dividing the scriptures. Not even close.

Your answer is simple. What was taught to the early church is what doctrine that continued. You have no right to introduce any doctrine from any Old Convenant scriptures simply because there was a continuation of some of those teaching under the New Convenant. Your no greater than any apostle. In fact. Your less. A lot less. Just like anyone of else living today. If the apostles did not teach it... then you have no right to teach it. Your adding to their doctrine. The only doctrine of the church.

Sure God hates divorce but HE sure does save divorces. Even.....Divorces outside of Israel. Divorces of gentile nations that during Malachi was shut out of any of the promises of God. They HAD NO HOPE AND WHERE WITHOUT GOD IN THIS WORLD. So if you want to picture the gentile at this time.... picture them DEAD. (Are you of Jewish hertiage? If not then this is you in Malachi) YOU HAD NO CONVENANT. NO RIGHTS TO ANY PROMISES TO ANYTHING TO DO WITH ISRAEL.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Lets even say your right... Which you not... But Malachi also teaches that those that do not tithe are cursed with a curse. Do you think the curse is still in affect? PLEASE answer plainly. Yes or No.

The Great commission is on-going to the "uttermost part of the earth" and is carried beyond the Apostles by the ordaining of Preachers {elders} who are sent by the church (Rom 10) to preach Jesus. Arguably that has been accomplished many times over in the ensuing 2000 yrs since the great commission was given, but that by no means justifies disobeying the Holy Spirit's direction to continue sending preachers in Rom 10.

You really think "uttermost part of the earth" includes you? It included those that where listening. It was not a prophetic declaration that still continued to be fulfilled 2000 years down in time by this age of men. Jesus meant what He said and Who He said it to. When he talked of future events.... he told his disciples....... They where successful. They finished the work that was given then. Didn't they?

In Romans 10? You have the preaching of those men in your hand...... Its called the scriptures. What do you think the NT scriptures are?... Might they be preaching? Was that preaching from preachers that where sent? Certainly. To go back and take Romans 10 to be a continuation of the great commision misses this fact.

In part I agree, we are in a godless generation of the end times, and yes, some preachers are in it for the money {I could put some names here but I won't, God knows em already anyway}. However I'll presume for common sense's sake you are attending a local church where you pray one for another, fellowship with believers, encourage, exhort and lift up the brethren, study and are attentive to the preaching of God's word from an ordained pastor who has the call of God on him. That would mean someone's got to pay for 1. A building 2. power & utilities 3. taxes, expenditures, phones, baptistry, bibles, hymnals et al 4. A Preacher and in some cases 5. a Secretary 6. A janitor or cleaning crew unless men & women of the church give of more than just their $ but also their time.

Whatever happened to volunters? I never said anything about not giving. Of coarse people need to give but to compare what is need by today's standard to those of the early church there is no comparison. Seems like everyone needs to get paid for what they do. This is one reason why people hold onto to the tithe as a doctrinal position. Not anything to do with the scriptures. You know it happens. You just did it yourself. I know churches personal that teach against tithing and they doing pretty good. Now people do volunteer their time more... Wouldn't you like that more than just getting their money?

To answer - yes of course Paul lived off the tithes and offerings of the church, which were sent to him regularly.

Now I would like to see those NT scriptures. You have taken some small form of gifts that he received to mean that he recieved someone's tithe? Nonsense. Scripture.....please. Doesn't it seem everytime you see Paul... you see him suffering. Working with his own hands. I have read those verses. I have never read one verse that said he took the tithe from anyone.

Abused widely? Yeah probably a lot. Debutation? Unfortunately necessary - otherwise how is the man to eat, pay bills and support his family whilst preparing to move to Yugoslavia etc? The Disciples didn't roll up their nets and bring them, nor drag their fishing boats along as they went preaching. David didn't keep a herd of sheep out back to live on after the lord made him king. They which preach the gospel live of the gospel....and that means they're supported by the tithes of the members of the body of Christ in the local church.

Yes... he needs to work and do just that. Where do you read about debutation in the scriptures. I did read where the apostles and early church spread the Gospel around the world successfully. I never read one word about debutation. Not one. You say necessary....... Nonsense.

They that preach the Gospel?...... I know alot of people that preach that verse. Alot of people. It always seem strange to me that they never finished what Paul said...

1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
1Co 9:15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

I have heard alot of preachers say that in my life. Alot those that preach this go so far as to say they where never called to a secular job.... but it always seemed that all of them ended up working somewhere..... at least part time.... most of the time.... fulltime....

That is why you see alot of fulltime evangelist's taking pastor job and pastors reluctant to be evangelist. ( at least until they start drawing SS and then they earn some extra money on the side preaching revivals and special services.)

God ordered the Egyptians to give abundantly to the children of Israel before they left. He made them rich with jewels, clothes, flocks and herds....so that they could then give of those moneys / flocks - tithes for the construction of the Tabernacle, support of the priests etc. The priests made their living off the tithes of the people. The principle of tithing is as plain as day. God give us and we give back....

If you ever heard the gospel, it was because someone tithed and supported the church, which payed and supported a preacher, who preached instead of working at the factory every Sunday, to people who sat in the church, which costed money to operate, and some got saved under the preaching, and they witnessed and gave out gospel tracts and free Bibles (which cost money) payed for by tithes, and some got saved....and someone reached you with it.

I got saved because I heeded the call of the Gospel. Its to the GLORY of Christ and not to any man. Yet, you want to GLORY in men and say I got saved because someone tithed? Nonsense.

Tithing is not the POWER OF GOD unto savaltion. Do you want to change Romans 1:16?

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The only Gospel that matters is found in the scriptures. Not some watered down nonsense of God robbers and how men pleases God by giving God his money. Tell me the last time you preached on tithing and someone got saved? I read the apostles preaching in the scriptures. I followed the scriptures. Not some man preaching today.

Yes, it is over-run with religious ticks and moochers robbing God and people alike, I agree. Yes it is filled with wasted tithes spent of absurd lavish living... yes, some many preachers are con-artists & wolves who've found an easy ride. BUT there are also some old fashioned Bible preaching, lean living, barely making it country preachers who just make it just by the mercy of God week to week. Men who don't buy Christmas, don't give their wives pretty gifts nor birthday presents to their children because they can't afford it on their salary. But they love the Lord and spend the days visiting the sick, encouraging the wayward, giving the gospel to the lost and conducing funerals, weddings, and visitation during the day. Some of those men made 10X more in secular jobs but they're called to preach....so they're preachers. It isn't all fat living and free rides IItj.... for some its a bitter challenge for them and their families and many of them die with nothing to their names but a life spent for others. They have set up for themselves "riches in heaven". Tithes support those men...feed their families...clothe their children and so God said, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn.

Motives... Motives. Not all motives are based on money. Many are based on power. I will say their are some sincere people calling themselves preachers. Some mean well but the truth is not based on someone meaning well. The power of the pulput has made many a preacher drunk with self glorying doctrine. Many start out well and their end is worse than their beginning. You can not take such ignorance as being preached in the tithe and make anything worth having. It corrupts the truth and ultimately the lie is the preached as the truth. Who benefits? The one preaching it. Don't tell me it doesn't. I know several poor preachers that like to talk about how poor they are and how they haven given up this and that for the Gospel. Their earning their money in the form of self glory. In the end the only one that needs to hear any of that junk is God. He will seperate those that have their reward from those that have a future reward.

We always want to talk of this apostate age and then act like where exempt from being part of the problem.... when it fact... were part of it.

[PastorHarrison]

Lets even say your right... Which you not... But Malachi also teaches that those that do not tithe are cursed with a curse. Do you think the curse is still in affect? PLEASE answer plainly. Yes or No.

Yes....absolutely.

The Great commission is on-going to the "uttermost part of the earth" and is carried beyond the Apostles by the ordaining of Preachers {elders} who are sent by the church (Rom 10) to preach Jesus. Arguably that has been accomplished many times over in the ensuing 2000 yrs since the great commission was given, but that by no means justifies disobeying the Holy Spirit's direction to continue sending preachers in Rom 10.

Wrong

In Romans 10? You have the preaching of those men in your hand...... Its called the scriptures. What do you think the NT scriptures are?... Might they be preaching? Was that preaching from preachers that where sent? Certainly. To go back and take Romans 10 to be a continuation of the great commision misses this fact.

Now thats absurd....

Now I would like to see those NT scriptures. You have taken some small form of gifts that he received to mean that he recieved someone's tithe? Nonsense. Scripture.....please.

You say that Paul lived off the tithes and offerings of churches is nonsense? II Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service How much plainer it can be made I don't know...but if you won't see it, you won't see it. Paul said in I Cor 9:6 ...have we not power to forbear working? In other words, to explain this simply (Neh 8:7-8) Paul said, we have the right and authority to not work and require of the church that it support us financially. Who goes to the work of the ministry at his own expense (I Cor 9:7, 9) for they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel (vs 14). Pretty basic stuff here man....just takes one being willing to surrender all (including the will and the love of his money). But again I call your attention to the fact that without a willing heart, not full of bitterness over having to give some of what God has given him back, its a waste of time to give at all. II Cor 9:7. Now I know you don't like it one bit bro, but Paul was paid wages by the churches to support him as he worked in the ministry...plain as day. Deal with it.

Yes... he needs to work and do just that.

Not according to I Cor 9:6

Where do you read about debutation in the scriptures.

I don't. But I do read that a man is to be trained before he goes out preaching, which is why Titus, Timothy and others traveled with Paul and learned from him before he put them in charge of churches as the Pastor. Otherwise churches could end up with men in the pulpits who don't know the Bible and seem never able to quite get it (II Tim 3:5) Now if those men are out working, like I did, it tends to take them too long to get their training & education finished to a point where they're not altogether stupid. Yes, of course there are exceptions and no, not all men go get trained before they start preaching...and no I'm not against that....but it does open a door for the devil to get one of his counterfeits in a little easier I think.

Alot them went so far to say they where never called to a secular job.... but it always seemed that all of them ended up working somewhere..... at least part time.... most of the time.... fulltime....

Starting a work from 0, some preachers do indeed work. An established church thats in the will of God will support it's pastor however, so he can attend to the ministry rather than have his 'fishing nets and sheep herd' on the side. The fact that some preachers work is not a good thing, its an absolute shame upon the church that has failed to support the pastor. Better to close it down and send those folk to the next closest church until they decide to support their own full time pastor.

got saved because I heed the call of the Gospel. Its to the GLORY of Christ and not to any man. Yet, you want to GLORY in men and say I got saved because someone tithed? Nonsense.

I say you got saved because someone, somewhere, sometime, preached the gospel and it spread through parents, relatives, neighbors, friends or strangers to your ears and you got saved (I Cor 1:21) because God uses preaching to save sinners.

Tithing is not the POWER OF GOD unto savaltion. You want to change Romans 1:16?

you say some very rash and indicative of Prov 29:20 things. Hard to be desirous of continued discourse with you if your unable to restrain from Prov 29:22.

I followed the scriptures. Not some man preaching.

Matt 3:1; 4:17, Acts 3:20, 8:5, 9:20 - you should study more. God uses preaching and preachers....who preach the scriptures and men get saved.

I would be very interested to know, I mean really to know...not just to listen to hollow internet forum blabbering, but really to know, if you attend a Bible believed rightly ordained New Testament church where you are faithfully encouraging, exhorting and praying and bearing the burdens of other Christians....and being faithful to help with your finances, time and attendance to visitation and soul winning. You need not bother with claims..... no answer is really verifyable after all, but just really....I'd like to know if I am right in my hypothesis on the matter.

[John81]

There is no set standard for giving under the New Testament other than that we are to submit our will to God's and give according to how His Spirit leads us. Whether the percentage the Spirit leads us to give turns out to be 1% or 100% or anywhere in between doesn't matter. What matters is that we obey the Lord in giving what He leads us to give and to do so cheerfully and willingly.

[PastorHarrison]

There is no set standard for giving under the New Testament other than that we are to submit our will to God's and give according to how His Spirit leads us. Whether the percentage the Spirit leads us to give turns out to be 1% or 100% or anywhere in between doesn't matter. What matters is that we obey the Lord in giving what He leads us to give and to do so cheerfully and willingly.

Bro John the JHW's and Mormons and the Church of Christ use the same premise to support why they teach heresy.... they too say "well.....this is what the Spirit led me to do". Its also how the 'pennycostals' circuMVent scripture to do some tongue flapping.

I agree if one is, surrendered and seeking prayerfully, with all such 'leadings' founded without exception upon Scriptural authority, then yes - his tithe may vary depending upon circumstance II Cor 8:11-15 sets some foundation for the premise. Unfortunately the reality is, carnal spiritual babes use this "leading" as the red badge of scripture nulification. Say they..."well...thats how you're led....but I'm led differently".

[John81]

None of that changes the fact the tithe was given specifically to OT Jews while NT Christians are commanded only to give as God leads them.

God knows the hearts of new converts and mature Christians and all in between well and good enough to make sure He proposes upon all their hearts the right amount to accomplish His will. I've never yet seen a church that practices NT giving that's not had enough funds but I've seen many churches that preach the tithe suffering lack.

In any event, Scripture is clear on this which is why I find it so hard to believe that anyone would attempt to say the tithe is commanded for today.

[PastorHarrison]

Well...hate to tell ya, but you've found someone, and I know a bunch of preachers who as well don't believe tithing went out the window when Christ went to the cross anymore than they think God's hatred of divorce did. Yep...ceremonial and dietary law ended, but since when was tithing ceremonial? Its like saying that since "adultery, idolatry and witchcraft, revelings and such like" {Gal 5} were part of the O.T. Jewish Law and N.T. Grace Christians are free from the O.T. Law, those prohibitions are lifted under the veil of grace.... Gal 5 deals with that rather nicely.

Folk can chant "we've got liberty in Christ" till the rapture, but much of the law is still quite in effect. Our grace may not be used as a cloak for disobedience to everything in the O.T.

But for sake of discussion, I'll concede, there is some wiggle room for determining individually what I ought to give as a N.T. Christian, but not tithing at all? Can't go with ya on that one bro.

[Guest Guest]

Well...hate to tell ya, but you've found someone, and I know a bunch of preachers who as well don't believe tithing went out the window when Christ went to the cross anymore than they think God's hatred of divorce did. Yep...ceremonial and dietary law ended, but since when was tithing ceremonial? Its like saying that since "adultery, idolatry and witchcraft, revelings and such like" {Gal 5} were part of the O.T. Jewish Law and N.T. Grace Christians are free from the O.T. Law, those prohibitions are lifted under the veil of grace.... Gal 5 deals with that rather nicely.

Folk can chant "we've got liberty in Christ" till the rapture, but much of the law is still quite in effect. Our grace may not be used as a cloak for disobedience to everything in the O.T.

But for sake of discussion, I'll concede, there is some wiggle room for determining individually what I ought to give as a N.T. Christian, but not tithing at all? Can't go with ya on that one bro.

Again, I haven't tithed in 15 years or more. Never had my leg broken or my back broke. Never. I have never just given to any local church in disobediance with

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

Seems like you love to hold to some form the law. I can tell it will never get you anywhere....but I said more than once that I have not made it about the law. Its about Israel. It has always been about Israel. Never about anyone else.....before or after.....

Keep holding on to your "God still hates divorce" after the cross ideals so He must still like tithing ideals...

I mean divorce was prelaw, part of the law, and etc. You know you should add a couple more verses to your knowledge of divorce and remember that God issued a bill of divorce from Israel. That He might be married to another.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

also remember that wew are free from any marriage to the law through the body of Christ.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I don't know why you look to that which was fulfilled in the Glorious work of a Lord. We no longer look back AT OR TO what was fulfilled..... we look ahead to the eternal One Who fulfilled it that we might not have the demand to do the same. I am sure you nor I...... would measure up if we tried.

[Guest Guest]

A good read on scriptural tithing is---Let us Give written by Arthur E. Ball. He and his wife, Ruth, are missionaries to England.

[Guest Guest]

Yes....absolutely.

So you would curse those in Christ when Christ bore their curse at Calvary?



but






Tell me why its absurd. I read what Paul preached. You mean to tell me that the scriptures don't contain preaching? Now that is absurd.



Took wages? So you equate wages to be the tithe? Now that is nonsense. Where did it say tithe? The temple still stood and the tribe of Levi needed support.... DID THE APOSTLES TITHE TO THE TEMPLE AND THE STOREHOUSE?

IF not... Why not? Where did the command change? He must have given his tithe to the temple and the real storehouse.....I mean he wouldn't have not followed the law would he?

Now Paul worked a long long time. He should made some serious money from getting all those tithe dollars you say someone gave him. Where are the scriptures that showed him living well off?

You take a few mentions of him recieving small gifts and say that the tithe of local churches supported Paul. Come on.... do the math.



Oh ......why not drop this idea of debutation? Its nonsense. It shows that men are not willing to work a job like everyone else while they build their congregations. Especailly those that claim to be going somewhere here in the good old USA. Work. That is what Paul did. That is what the apostles did. Deal with it.



A established church I take it by your definition is one thats got money. Not necessarily one that has no money but has alot of good Christians of coarse you have to believe a good Christian would have money and share all of it he can with his "MAN OF GOD". Nonsense.

You must be a fulltime "pastor" or at least a wantabe fulltime pastor. Looking to get support?



I got saved because I heard the Gospel. The Gospel that was preached in the NT by preachers. Did you forget



I consider the lack of anything to be nothing and if everyone is nothing in the work of God... then what room to have to save because of man I got saved? Nonsense.



Rash? Just honest. I would say your angry because people do not tithe. That is why you say they are cursed even though Christ died for His own offsprings curse. I would say that shows anger and rash behavior. Maybe....even a little of very bad judgement.



Claims.....what church you go to or pastor. I would like to check up on your standing there. I can talk to some members or something? Would you like that?

Then why question my position in any local church??? I am certain no matter which one I said.... it wouldn't live up to your expectations.

But I will give a vague answer. I am a member of a local Independant baptist church somewhere in North America and NO.... I don't believe something just because some IFB preacher teaches it. Just call me brother Berea

[Guest Guest]

A good read on scriptural tithing is---Let us Give written by Arthur E. Ball. He and his wife' date=' Ruth, are missionaries to England.[/quote']

Can you share why he support the tithe?

[Guest Guest]

"I Corinthians 9:6-15 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void."

I think that passage makes the Lords view on the subject rather clear.

:hijack:

As a side note, Christ did not come to destroy the law, but to fullfill it. The cerimonial aspects of the law were fullfilled, they were pictures of things to come, so they are passed away. The rest of the law is in effect, and while we are under grace and through Christ free from the curse of the law, that does not mean God intended for us to ignore it. It reveals his will and character after all.