THE "SEVEN DISPENSATIONS" VIEWED IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE

[irishman]

One thing to consider for all you who say the Old testament was all under the law, and written for the jew:

Jesus gave the Great Commision to the apostles (For those who always ask "Who was He speaking to").
So if you believe as you say you do, why obey the great commision? It was given to twelve men only!

Edited March 3, 2012 by irishman

[Invicta]

One thing to consider for all you who say the Old testament was all under the law, and written for the jew:

Jesus gave the Great Commision to the apostles (For those who always ask "Who was He speaking to") and that took place before the resurrection of Christ, which was still under the law!

So if you believe as you say you do, why obey the great commision?

Well, I suppose the correct answer to that is that it was not under the law, as Jesus said:

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Edited March 3, 2012 by Invicta

[irishman]

I edited my post because the great commission was given after Christ rose from the deaed. Sorry, I wasn't thinking.

It is still something to think about when some say that the promises were only for the Jew, and that the Old Testament scriptures were noit to the church. Dispensationalism does that.

[2Tim215]

I edited my post because the great commission was given after Christ rose from the deaed. Sorry, I wasn't thinking.

It is still something to think about when some say that the promises were only for the Jew, and that the Old Testament scriptures were noit to the church. Dispensationalism does that.

Most (if not all) the promises of the OT were for the Jew. How could they have been for us who are under the Cross of Christ if this new covenant/dispensation had not occurred yet? That is why we have many false doctrines these days using OT doctrine and promises to fleece unknowing Christians from their hard earned money and take their eyes off the Truth and lead them astray.

The most popular being Jer 29:11

Jeremiah 29:11 NIV
New International Version
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
Jeremiah 29:11 ASV
American Standard Version
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith Jehovah, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you hope in your latter end.
Jeremiah 29:11 BBE
Bible in Basic English
For I am conscious of my thoughts about you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you hope at the end.
Jeremiah 29:11 CJB
Complete Jewish Bible
For I know what plans I have in mind for you,' says ADONAI,'plans for well-being, not for bad things; so that you can have hope and a future.
Jeremiah 29:11 RHE
Douay-Rheims
For I know the thoughts that I think towards you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of affliction, to give you an end and patience.
Jeremiah 29:11 ESV
English Standard Version
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11 GW
GOD'S WORD Translation
I know the plans that I have for you, declares the LORD. They are plans for peace and not disaster, plans to give you a future filled with hope.
Jeremiah 29:11 GNT
Good News Translation
I alone know the plans I have for you, plans to bring you prosperity and not disaster, plans to bring about the future you hope for.
Jeremiah 29:11 HNV
Hebrew Names Version
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of shalom, and not of evil, to give you hope in your latter end.
Jeremiah 29:11 CSB
Holman Christian Standard
For I know the plans I have for you"-[this is] the Lord's declaration-"plans for [your] welfare, not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11 KJV
King James Version
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Jeremiah 29:11 NAS
New American Standard
'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11 NCV
New Century Version
I say this because I know what I am planning for you," says the Lord. "I have good plans for you, not plans to hurt you. I will give you hope and a good future.
Jeremiah 29:11 NIRV
New International Reader's Version
"I know the plans I have for you," announces the Lord. "I want you to enjoy success. I do not plan to harm you. I will give you hope for the years to come.
Jeremiah 29:11 NKJV
New King James Version
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11 NLT
New Living Translation
For I know the plans I have for you," says the LORD. "They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11 NRS
New Revised Standard
For surely I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans for your welfare and not for harm, to give you a future with hope.
Revised Standard Version
For I know the plans I have for you, says the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11 DBY
The Darby Translation
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith Jehovah, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you in your latter end a hope.
Jeremiah 29:11 MSG
The Message
I know what I'm doing. I have it all planned out - plans to take care of you, not abandon you, plans to give you the future you hope for.
Jeremiah 29:11 WBT
The Webster Bible
For I know the thoughts that I think towards you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Jeremiah 29:11 TMB
Third Millennium Bible
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Jeremiah 29:11 TNIV
Today's New International Version
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
Jeremiah 29:11 WEB
World English Bible
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says Yahweh, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you hope in your latter end.
Jeremiah 29:11 WYC
Wycliffe
For I know the thoughts which I think on you, saith the Lord, the thoughts of peace, and not of torment, that I give to you an end and patience. (For I know the thoughts which I think about you, saith the Lord, the thoughts of peace, and not of torment, so that I shall give you a good ending.)
Jeremiah 29:11 YLT
Young's Literal Translation
For I have known the thoughts that I am thinking towards you -- an affirmation of Jehovah; thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give to you posterity and hope.
Note that though some are simillar to the KJV, most are based on what we expect/want/demand. Our "prosperity". The "expected end" God speaks of is His plan for the Jews, not their plan for themselvs.

Jer 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Jer 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Jer 29:14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

KJV AV

If you read further in the above passage you see the context in wich God is speaking, that their captivity will cause them to call on Him, that He will answer, that He will save them and bring them home. This is clearly not a promise to the Church but to the nation of israel.This is not a promise of prosperity, happy life and futre to the individual but a prophecy that they will turn back to God and He will give them back what He promised them. With dispensational study you see the clear cut lines between Church and Jew, between grace and works, between the blood of lambs and goats, etc and the BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD. We can LEARN from these "promises" but can not take our doctrine from them. God's dealing with the Jew reveals His nature and character to us not His instructions to the Church - that is in the NT and is given to us as a NEW covenant for a reason - for the old one is NOT FOR US.

This is why there is so much confusion in most modern churches, they don't know how to rightly DIVIDE the Word of God and take whatever suits them and apply it as doctrine to their beliefs and lives. Edited March 3, 2012 by 2Tim215

[John81]

Most (if not all) the promises of the OT were for the Jew. How could they have been for us who are under the Cross of Christ if this new covenant/dispensation had not occurred yet? That is why we have many false doctrines these days using OT doctrine and promises to fleece unknowing Christians from their hard earned money and take their eyes off the Truth and lead them astray.

The most popular being Jer 29:11



Jer 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Jer 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Jer 29:14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

KJV AV

If you read further in the above passage you see the context in wich God is speaking, that their captivity will cause them to call on Him, that He will answer, that He will save them and bring them home. This is clearly not a promise to the Church but to the nation of israel.This is not a promise of prosperity, happy life and futre to the individual but a prophecy that they will turn back to God and He will give them back what He promised them. With dispensational study you see the clear cut lines between Church and Jew, between grace and works, between the blood of lambs and goats, etc and the BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD. We can LEARN from these "promises" but can not take our doctrine from them. God's dealing with the Jew reveals His nature and character to us not His instructions to the Church - that is in the NT and is given to us as a NEW covenant for a reason - for the old one is NOT FOR US.

This is why there is so much confusion in most modern churches, they don't know how to rightly DIVIDE the Word of God and take whatever suits them and apply it as doctrine to their beliefs and lives.

I continually hear dispensational preachers use rules, laws, and promises specifically to OT Jews in order to try and convince their congregation they must tithe. They preach people must tithe or they will suffer the curses God spoke about to the Jews. Then they preach that if the people do tithe in accord with the Jewish law then God will reward them according to His promises to the Jews.

That's hardly a testimony for dispensationalism rightly dividing promises and differences between OT Jews and NT Christians.

[2Tim215]

I continually hear dispensational preachers use rules, laws, and promises specifically to OT Jews in order to try and convince their congregation they must tithe. They preach people must tithe or they will suffer the curses God spoke about to the Jews. Then they preach that if the people do tithe in accord with the Jewish law then God will reward them according to His promises to the Jews.

That's hardly a testimony for dispensationalism rightly dividing promises and differences between OT Jews and NT Christians.

I agree John, but just because some preachers misuse a method of study doesn't make it wrong. Being from South Africa I have a outside perspective compared to a lot of you guys that have grown up in IFB churches or similar. My view of IFB churches and their doctrine was shattered when I joined this site. For many years I was angry with God, the church as I knew it, Christians and their confusing and misleading doctrine until I was led to a planted IFB church that taught using dispensations, and the Word was suddenly opened up to me now with a method of study that explained all the supposed confusion and "errors" that charismatic churches teach. I have charismatic friends that still believe that the Word of God has errors, is not inspired, etc and some are also "dispensationalists", though they use a warped method of dispensational doctrine to substantiate their belief system, not what the bible actually says. Man's error, pride and personal agenda does not make God, His Word or the way His Word is laid out wrong.

I say that this site has shattered my view of IFB doctrine because there seems to be as much confusion, infighting and wako doctrines here as there are in charismatic and other church circles. We however can at least agree that the KJV is the True Word of God, yet even using the same bible there are differences in opinion, doctrine, understanding, etc that does not in any way edify the believer, the church or God. So how can the world see the truth if we can't even see it, never mind agree with one another - is this mans pride causing this division amongst those of us who still supposedly hold to the "fundamentals" of the faith or is it the devil sowing discord to undermine the truth - or both?

Your above statement using the fallibility of man to undermine a sound doctrinal principal is a weak argument at best - man will always fail but Gods Word will never fail, come back empty or mislead.
Just because some say 7 dispensations, others 9 etc, doesn't in any way disprove the fact that there are clear divisions in Gods Word where He deals with man differently. Where He has made new covenants, promises etc nationally or individually. Man will never fully understand the Word, nor fully understand God and His methods and will always fail yet this lack of understanding and failures should never be used a crutch to not believe the Truth, whether it be 2,7,9 or 106 dispensations, divisions, covenants, promises or whatever you want to call them - that FACT is they are still there and by recognizing them for what they are we can have a better understanding of Gods Word and His plan for us. Edited March 3, 2012 by 2Tim215

[irishman]

I continually hear dispensational preachers use rules, laws, and promises specifically to OT Jews in order to try and convince their congregation they must tithe. They preach people must tithe or they will suffer the curses God spoke about to the Jews. Then they preach that if the people do tithe in accord with the Jewish law then God will reward them according to His promises to the Jews.

That's hardly a testimony for dispensationalism rightly dividing promises and differences between OT Jews and NT Christians.

Many of the promises were not prosperity promises, but the same rule applies to us as children of God. I disagree with the name-calling and insinuations that we are not rightly dividing the Word, one can only claim that when he is already convinced of such isolating of Scrptures (giving it it's own interpretations). You guys go ahead and rob youself of a portion of Scripture, I prefer all of it myself, and I believ that the Lord prefers it all for me too!

Why should I read the Old Testament and rejoice in the promises if they are not for me? It would be like reading someone else's mail. Our God is the same God to all His people regardless of "dispensations".

By the way, please stick with the KJB according to the rues of the forum. I see nothing amiss in Jeremiah 29:11:
Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Read the Proverbs, they are full of such promises and thoughts. Edited March 3, 2012 by irishman

[Covenanter]

As I understand it, the huge problem with dispensationalism is the separation of Israel & the church in the present disp. There is a resultant focus on national Israel rather then Christ. That separation is not evident in the NT writings & can only be justified by an insistence that the promises to Israel in the OT have not been fulfilled.

While The Jewish leaders & their followers persistently rejected their Messiah, & suffered the consequences in AD 70, many thousands of Jews became believers in Apostolic days & were united with Gentiles in the church. Now there is no difference between Jew & Gentile - they are counted in by the Gospel.

[John81]

I agree John, but just because some preachers misuse a method of study doesn't make it wrong. Being from South Africa I have a outside perspective compared to a lot of you guys that have grown up in IFB churches or similar. My view of IFB churches and their doctrine was shattered when I joined this site. For many years I was angry with God, the church as I knew it, Christians and their confusing and misleading doctrine until I was led to a planted IFB church that taught using dispensations, and the Word was suddenly opened up to me now with a method of study that explained all the supposed confusion and "errors" that charismatic churches teach. I have charismatic friends that still believe that the Word of God has errors, is not inspired, etc and some are also "dispensationalists", though they use a warped method of dispensational doctrine to substantiate their belief system, not what the bible actually says. Man's error, pride and personal agenda does not make God, His Word or the way His Word is laid out wrong.

I say that this site has shattered my view of IFB doctrine because there seems to be as much confusion, infighting and wako doctrines here as there are in charismatic and other church circles. We however can at least agree that the KJV is the True Word of God, yet even using the same bible there are differences in opinion, doctrine, understanding, etc that does not in any way edify the believer, the church or God. So how can the world see the truth if we can't even see it, never mind agree with one another - is this mans pride causing this division amongst those of us who still supposedly hold to the "fundamentals" of the faith or is it the devil sowing discord to undermine the truth - or both?

Your above statement using the fallibility of man to undermine a sound doctrinal principal is a weak argument at best - man will always fail but Gods Word will never fail, come back empty or mislead.
Just because some say 7 dispensations, others 9 etc, doesn't in any way disprove the fact that there are clear divisions in Gods Word where He deals with man differently. Where He has made new covenants, promises etc nationally or individually. Man will never fully understand the Word, nor fully understand God and His methods and will always fail yet this lack of understanding and failures should never be used a crutch to not believe the Truth, whether it be 2,7,9 or 106 dispensations, divisions, covenants, promises or whatever you want to call them - that FACT is they are still there and by recognizing them for what they are we can have a better understanding of Gods Word and His plan for us.

You also make my point. Many dispensationalists claim non-dispensationalists can't rightly interpret Scripture, yet they do, but because some non-dispensationalists do make wild claims, all non-dispensationalists are charged with their error.

My point being, there are dispensationalists and non-dispensationalists who all come to the same basic conclusions as to what Scripture says on various matters. Why is there any need to attack one another simply on the basis of one group separating Scripture into dispensations to reach point "A" and the other group not doing that but also reaching point "A"? Why allow those on the fringe of either side to determine the whole?

Myself, over the years I've encountered far more crazy ideas coming from dispensationalists than non-dispensationalists. I've encountered dispensationalists who have raised that to a standard involving salvation, declaring one can't truly saved if they don't believe in their versions of dispensationalism. Others have claimed the book of Hebrews is for Jews only and not at all for non-Jews. Some have claimed only the books of Paul are for us and if we base anything off another book of the Bible or follow something mentioned in another book of the Bible then we are either not following Christ or not even saved.

The fact is, Baptists, including IFB, are not all in agreement upon a variety of matters. The first and most important thing to consider is whether or not we are of the same faith, meaning do we all hold to the truth of salvation. Then there are clear biblical doctrines we are to all hold to. Beyond that, there are areas we can disagree about, but that doesn't mean we are not brothers/sisters in Christ. Depending upon the disagreement, we may still be able to fellowship with one another, if not, we should be able to have a measure of separation without calling their salvation into question based upon something that has nothing to do with salvation.

There are Calvinist, Arminian and some who claim to be neither, who are Baptists and IFB. Similarly there are pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib and no-trib Baptists. There are Baptists who will not enter a theater and those who do. There are card playing Baptists and non-card playing Baptists. There are Baptists who have organs, pianos, guitars, keyboards, and other instruments in their church, and some who accept some of those but not others, and some who use none. There are KJO, KJP, and MV Baptists. Etc.

IFB and Baptist are all broad terms, especially today, and they encompass a variety of beliefs.

[2Tim215]

Many of the promises were not prosperity promises, (Agreed - that was but one example) but the same rule applies to us as children of God. I disagree with the name-calling and insinuations that we are not rightly dividing the Word, one can only claim that when he is already convinced of such isolating of Scrptures (giving it it's own interpretations). You guys go ahead and rob youself of a portion of Scripture, I prefer all of it myself, and I believ that the Lord prefers it all for me too! (Where have I ever called you names? My bible is the same as any other KJV and ALL scripture is for us but not all is doctrine - 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: - Some is for instruction, some for correction, some for reproof and SOME for doctrine - not all)

Why should I read the Old Testament and rejoice in the promises if they are not for me? (same answer as above) It would be like reading someone else's mail. (you can still learn from the mistakes and life of others) Our God is the same God to all His people regardless of "dispensations".

By the way, please stick with the KJB according to the rues of the forum. (if you actually bothered to read my post you will see that I used the other versions as comparisons so stop being petty) I see nothing amiss in Jeremiah 29:11: (there is nothing wrong with Jer 29:11 but again if you bothered to read my post you will see what can go wrong if it's not rightly divided - 2 Tim2:15)
Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Read the Proverbs, they are full of such promises and thoughts.

Have enough respect to read a persons post in its entirety before jumping the gun.

[Invicta]

I have heard them say we should tithe and also add offerings on top of that as the OT mentions 'tithes and offerings.'

[irishman]

Have enough respect to read a persons post in its entirety before jumping the gun.

I Have read your post brother, and I still believe that I interpreted it right, and i do not feel that it is "petty" to ask another to use the correct Word of God. I missed the point in those interpretations. I am sorry if it offends you, but I will remain a non dispensationalist as I believe we are expected to be. man came up with these different dispensation, perhaps too much study has made them mad!

[John81]

I have heard them say we should tithe and also add offerings on top of that as the OT mentions 'tithes and offerings.'

Yes, that's the most common thing preached. Never mind what Scripture actually says or trusting the Lord to provide through His faithful followers.

[Invicta]

John, You said earlier, I believe, that the Brethren were liberal. I was associated with the Brethren till 1976, and I never found them liberal, and that was in the 'Open Brethren". The open Brethren are baptist. There are also various groups of 'Exclusive Brethren', some of which are Paedo Baptist. I have friends who were brought up in the exclusives.

The grandmother of one of our deacons was a 16 year old deaf and dumb girl in Dublin, and was invited to 'Gospel Preaching' by a friend, who offered to 'sign' for her. At this meeting, she met the Lord and went home to tell her father that she had been to 'Gospel Preaching' and had been saved. He pointed to the door and said "Out". She went to the friend who had invited her and she found someone who would put her up, untill eventually she arrived in Sheffield, England, where she founded a deaf and dumb club to spread the gospel to its members and there she met her husband. Her son, my friend's father, was the only one of her offspring who was not deaf and dumb and had to be sent to a neighbour to learn to speak. My friend used to go to his grandmother for tea each Wednesday until when he was 13, he was refused entry into her house as he was not 'in fellowship' with them. He told me they left the Brethren when he was 8, but I know his father used to attend Brethren meetings, including Exclusives, until shortly before he died. One meeting was held in a house just around the corner to where I lived but I did not know about it at the time. I asked a funeral director at our church if he knew anything about it, and he said, "Yes, we had to take the coffin in throgh the front window, and they were the only ones except JWs where the undertakers were not allowed to stay for the service.

We once met a french man named Anthelm, who was a follower of Darby. He would not go to any church and showed me a whole list of scriptures each of which said the church met in a house, to prove his point.

I once heard a story that someone had entered the pearly gates, and was being shown around, he was shown the various groups . These are the Anglicans, these the methodists, these the Baptists, these the Pentecostals, etc. At last he was show a manhole and when it was lifted there was another group there. "Who are these?" he asked. The answer was "Shh! They are the Brethren, they think they are the only ones here." I understand that there was a similar story about the Strict Baptists.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Invicta

[John81]

John, You said earlier, I believe, that the Brethren were liberal. I was associated with the Brethren till 1976, and I never found them liberal, and that was in the 'Open Brethren". The open Brethren are baptist. There are also various groups of 'Exclusive Brethren', some of which are Paedo Baptist. I have friends who were brought up in the exclusives.

The grandmother of one of our deacons was a 16 year old deaf and dumb girl in Dublin, and was invited to 'Gospel Preaching' by a friend, who offered to 'sign' for her. At this meeting, she met the Lord and went home to tell her father that she had been to 'Gospel Preaching' and had been saved. He pointed to the door and said "Out". She went to the friend who had invited her and she found someone who would put her up, untill eventually she arrived in Sheffield, England, where she founded a deaf and dumb club to spread the gospel to its members and there she met her husband. Her son, my friend's father, was the only one of her offspring who was not deaf and dumb and had to be sent to a neighbour to learn to speak. My friend used to go to his grandmother for tea each Wednesday until when he was 13, he was refused entry into her house as he was not 'in fellowship' with them. He told me they left the Brethren when he was 8, but I know his father used to attend Brethren meetings, including Exclusives, until shortly before he died. One meeting was held in a house just around the corner to where I lived but I did not know about it at the time. I asked a funeral director at our church if he knew anything about it, and he said, "Yes, we had to take the coffin in throgh the front window, and they were the only ones except JWs where the undertakers were not allowed to stay for the service.

We once met a french man named Anthelm, who was a follower of Darby. He would not go to any church and showed me a whole list of scriptures each of which said the church met in a house, to prove his point.

I once heard a story that someone had entered the pearly gates, and was being shown around, he was shown the various groups . These are the Anglicans, these the methodists, these the Baptists, these the Pentecostals, etc. At last he was show a manhole and when it was lifted there was another group there. "Who are these?" he asked. The answer was "Shh! They are the Brethren, they think they are the only ones here." I understand that there was a similar story about the Strict Baptists.

If I recall, what I read was about Plymouth Brethren and it was talking about them in the 1800s. Liberal wasnt' the term used, I used it for ease of modern understanding, but they were not as solid on some biblical areas as were some others at that time.

I don't know if this encompassed all or just some of them.

In some of the readings I found it interesting that the man many IFBs hold in such high regard, Moody, was actually an unwitting agent of the liberalisation of much of English Christianity in the late 1800s, extending into the 1900s. It was even his influence that seems to have the prime reason for the degrading of Spurgeons church after he died.