Ezekiel 38 & 39

[Brother Rick]

Reasoned response, Rick. Of course the nukes will be made of wood....

Thanks, I thought so too.

Wood?

Ex. 38:22, "And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone."

Oh, sorry, I forgot - the Bible doesn't actually mean what it says when you read it with your glasses.

Does anyone think what's going on today in Russia, Iran, Syria, Turkey, Lybia, Sudan and such has anything to do with these chapters?

I've heard some speculate the war will take place prior a rapture while others speculate it will take place after a rapture.

Some are putting a lot of money into trying to find oil in Israel because they believe if a huge oil reserve is discovered in Israel it will be part of the reason Russia and the others to invade.

It's hard to tell on any of these sort of things because the Bible isn't clear. At least I haven't seen much of anything, that certainly doesn't mean it's not there and we shouldn't look for it! Things change so quickly in our world now that I think it's silly to hang a dogmatic opinion on current events unless they line up significantly with the Bible.

Russia and company attack Israel because that's what they do. Russia has been in the business of causing problems for Israel for a long time, whether she has loads of oil or not.

Myself, I agree but it seems that while their number still may be rather few in comparison, a yet growing number of Christians are of the belief they can help usher in the end times. For the most part, their plan seems to be to attempt to hasten a major war against Israel.

Of course, at the same time there are many on the other end who see it as their job to do all they can to prevent a war from coming to Israel.

This also leads to my question as to how we are to view these prophecies and what impact should they have upon how we live our lives?

It would be foolish to try and hasten the end times. God hasn't told us to do that, and it's stupid and arrogant to think we could. God will do what He wills in His own time. The Bible says that God blesses those that bless Israel and He curses those that curse her. I have no reason to think that promise ever went away. So to try and hasten war with Israel on any level is insane. I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and I think anyone with half a brain should as well.

Prophecy is great stuff, but it shouldn't dictate our everyday lives. Our job is go out and try to fulfill the Great Commission, not to warn people about the Mark of the Beast or the Antichrist. Moses, Elijah, and the 144,000 will do a great job of doing that once we're gone (yes, Ian, you will be raptured too, before the Great Tribulation, kicking and screaming the whole way... ). If the end times come up in a discussion, that's fine and we should try to use it however we can, but to let them guide our daily lives is a false balance. You have these mid and post-Tribbers out there building bomb shelters and stocking up food, but they've never given a tract to their neighbor.

That being said, the Bible is God's word and we should study it. We should try to understand absolutely everything we can in it. We should accept that fact that there will be some things that we won't ever understand, but we should never use that as an excuse to be lackadaisical about trying to understand it.

Lastly, you asked about the Rapture in relation to this battle. I think this war happens after the Rapture. The passage says that Israel will be at peace when this attack happens. I see no peace coming to Israel until the Antichrist establishes a covenant with her and several other nations. The attack comes in the first half of the Tribulation before the Beast breaks the covenant and declares himself God. Edited February 28, 2012 by Rick Schworer

[John81]

Actually, at the beginning of Israel's current existence it was Russia who gave her much support, not the United States. Were it not for Russia and one of her Warsaw Bloc countries sending Israel the weapons they desperately needed, followed by some from France, Israel likely would have fell in the beginning while the United States refused to give her aid.

It wasn't until various shifts occured with regards to the Cold War that Russia turned to supporting the Arab nations and the United States, in an effort to have influence on the ground in the Middle East, began to give support to Israel...but at a high cost, always at a high cost to Israel's actualy sovereignty.

[Brother Rick]

Interesting, I didn't know that, John. It's sad when you look at the history of nations like Russia and China.

[John81]

Interesting, I didn't know that, John. It's sad when you look at the history of nations like Russia and China.

There tend to be sad parts in the history of all nations; especially if one is looking at them from a Christian perspective.

[Invicta]

Allenby defeated the Turks and entered Jerusalem on foot, in Dec. 1917. Britain and Russia had been gradually reducing the Turkish posessions for nearly 100 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Allenby,_1st_Viscount_Allenby

[Eric Stahl]

We can see the political alignments nearly matching Ezekiel 38.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

God has given us enough prophecy to know the end is soon.

Zephaniah 1:14–2:3 KJV
14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
2 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord’s anger come upon you.
3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord’s anger.

This Scripture very clearly teaches that when the Jewish people are back in the land of Israel, the day of the Lord’s judgment is soon!

[John81]

We can see the political alignments nearly matching Ezekiel 38.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

God has given us enough prophecy to know the end is soon.

Zephaniah 1:14–2:3 KJV
14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
2 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord’s anger come upon you.
3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord’s anger.

This Scripture very clearly teaches that when the Jewish people are back in the land of Israel, the day of the Lord’s judgment is soon!

Is that referring to ethnic Jews, Jews by conversion, practicing Jews, or what?

So, according to what you say above, the end times could not have come about from between 70 A.D. and 1948, meaning there could not have been the possibility of any imminent return of Christ throughout that time period.

[Covenanter]

Is that referring to ethnic Jews, Jews by conversion, practicing Jews, or what?

So, according to what you say above, the end times could not have come about from between 70 A.D. and 1948, meaning there could not have been the possibility of any imminent return of Christ throughout that time period.

As I understand it, there are two racially separate streams of Jews - ethnic (Sephardic) Jews of Middle East descent are in the small minority compared with the Ashkenazi Jews of Central Asian/Southern Russian origin by conversion around AD 740 through the Khazar Empire. That conversion was to avoid association with the Muslim & Eastern Roman Empires.

Whatever the truth, I do not think there is any prophetic significance. The Gospel is to be proclaimed in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. There are no NT prophecies relating to ethnic Israel & Jesus second coming.

[Invicta]

I used to work with a Jewish lad who said there was no Jewish race, only a Jewish religion.

[Eric Stahl]

Is that referring to ethnic Jews, Jews by conversion, practicing Jews, or what?

So, according to what you say above, the end times could not have come about from between 70 A.D. and 1948, meaning there could not have been the possibility of any imminent return of Christ throughout that time period.

John the rapture of the church age could have happened any time. These prophecies pertain to the day of the Lord and the second coming. However, since the appearing of Jesus at the rapture of the church age believers happens before the day of the Lord and the the day of the Lord is very,very near and hasteth greatly, the rapture MUST come soon!

As we know Thanks Giving is near because we see Christmas advertizing so we know the rapture is near because Israel is back in their land!

[John81]

John the rapture of the church age could have happened any time. These prophecies pertain to the day of the Lord and the second coming. However, since the appearing of Jesus at the rapture of the church age believers happens before the day of the Lord and the the day of the Lord is very,very near and hasteth greatly, the rapture MUST come soon!

As we know Thanks Giving is near because we see Christmas advertizing so we know the rapture is near because Israel is back in their land!

That's what I said. Since you say the rapture couldn't be near because there was no Israel, that means there could not have been any possibility of an imminent return of Christ prior to 1948.

This reminds me of those who said the restoration of the nation of Israel in 1948 meant that Christ would return no later than 1968 because of prophecy, as they read it, concerning ther restoration of Israel and one generation. When Christ didn't return by 1968 but Israel did capture Jerusalem in war, they decided that Christ would return no later than 1988, another generation, this one from the time Israel controlled Jerursalem. When Christ again didn't return as their interpretation of prophecy indicated, they once again came up with a new view.

Similar has happened throughout history, with virtually every generation pointing to something that was occuring in their time to be proof the coming of Christ and end of the world were near...the black death, freak weather in early America, the Dust Bowl in America, WWII, etc.

[Wilchbla]

I've read these chapters plenty and still can't figure them out. Seems to me that the events concerning God and Magog occur after the 1,000 year reign of Christ yet in these chapters the battle seems to take place before the millenial reign. Who knows. All I know is much bigger problems in my life to be concerned about then banging my head on the wall trying to make head or tails over this stuff.

[Wilchbla]

That's what I said. Since you say the rapture couldn't be near because there was no Israel, that means there could not have been any possibility of an imminent return of Christ prior to 1948.

This reminds me of those who said the restoration of the nation of Israel in 1948 meant that Christ would return no later than 1968 because of prophecy, as they read it, concerning ther restoration of Israel and one generation. When Christ didn't return by 1968 but Israel did capture Jerusalem in war, they decided that Christ would return no later than 1988, another generation, this one from the time Israel controlled Jerursalem. When Christ again didn't return as their interpretation of prophecy indicated, they once again came up with a new view.

Similar has happened throughout history, with virtually every generation pointing to something that was occuring in their time to be proof the coming of Christ and end of the world were near...the black death, freak weather in early America, the Dust Bowl in America, WWII, etc.

I mentioned this before to you. The generation that shall not pass is the generation on earth when the tribulation begins. Anotherwards, that generation won't be wiped out before Christ returns. The reason they keep messing this up with the 1948 stuff is they think Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 was a fulfillment of prophecy which it isn't.

[Eric Stahl]

John you miss read my post.

"John the rapture of the church age could have happened any time. These prophecies pertain to the day of the Lord and the second coming. However, since the appearing of Jesus at the rapture of the church age believers happens before the day of the Lord and the the day of the Lord is very,very near and hasteth greatly, the rapture MUST come soon!

As we know Thanks Giving is near because we see Christmas advertizing so we know the rapture is near because Israel is back in their land!"


There could not be a second coming of Jesus till Israel was back in Israel. Is that more clear?

Edited March 4, 2012 by Eric Stahl

[John81]

John you miss read my post.

"John the rapture of the church age could have happened any time. These prophecies pertain to the day of the Lord and the second coming. However, since the appearing of Jesus at the rapture of the church age believers happens before the day of the Lord and the the day of the Lord is very,very near and hasteth greatly, the rapture MUST come soon!

As we know Thanks Giving is near because we see Christmas advertizing so we know the rapture is near because Israel is back in their land!"


There could not be a second coming of Jesus till Israel was back in Israel. Is that more clear?

If the belief is that we have rapture, 7 years tribulation, 2nd coming, and Israel has to be in place during the tribulation, then how could the rapture have occured at any time prior to 1948 if the tribulation begins immediately afterwards and Israel had to be in place at that time?