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John81

Ezekiel 38 & 39

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Not sure how it will impact us John because we'll both be with the Lord in heaven when this happens!

I wasn't clear, but I was meaning how this prophecy should effect our lives now, as we live on this earth.

Also, if this is a future event then couldn't that mean we will, or at least might, see at least some of the build-up to this?

I don't agree with the philosophy because I believe it's unbiblical, but just as an example as to how some Christians look at this, they are of the mind they should support anything that would bring this to pass more quickly. Their belief is, if they can hasten the day this occurs they will in effect be hastening the day Christ returns. (I'm just using this as an example, not really wanting to discuss this theory unless it's actually relevant otherwise)

What nations will or may this actually involve and what does that mean to us as we look at world events today?

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Another question, is the Gomer referred to Germany, Turkey or another nation? As I was studying this I noticed in the 70s and 80s many were saying Gomer was Germany but today it seems many now say Gomer is Turkey. There is a pretty big difference between the two so it's made me wonder how or why Germany was once thought to be Gomer but now Turkey is...was some new evidence uncovered in this area that I don't know of or something else?

The idea of Germany, to me at least, never really fit, but many used to argue this was referring to East Germany (which no longer exists) which they said would naturally unite with Russia (and the whole Soviet Union, which no longer exists), and the other countries mentioned.

For whatever reason, it now seems Gomer is mostly believed to be Turkey. If so, it's interesting that Turkey (modern Turkey established by Ataturk as a secular nation friendly to West) has recently left the foundations set by it's modern founder and is not very much Islamic and ever growing in anti-Israel and anti-Western stands.

Anyway, just something I was thinking of as I await other contributions to what Ezekiel 38 & 39 means, its fulfillment and relevance to us.

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2 Peter 3:10–14 KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

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The last chapters of Ezekiel must be some of the most challenging in all prophetic Scripture. They need interpreting, & even I cannot give a literal reading as is straightforward with Daniel 9.

Obviously the temple, complete with sacrifices & offerings for sin, cannot be future. That is a blasphemous doctrine against our Lord Jesus Christ & his FINISHED work of redemption. The new covenant temple comprises all believers, & is built with living stones.

If the Gog/Magog war is a very graphic prophecy of a literal invasion of the land & people of Israel, then it is probably a parallel prophecy of the wars in Daniel 10-11 that took place between the testaments. It obviously isn't the ad 70 wars. The weapons employed are largely wooden, so it isn't a literal modern war:

9
And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, b
ot
h the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10
So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and r
ob
those that r
ob
bed them, saith the Lord GOD.


In the NT (apart from Revelation) war is a spiritual battle - see, e.g. Eph. 6, but this is apparent also as persecution where believers are victims, using the Word & prayer as their weapons, but not fighting with their enemies.
My kingdom is n
ot
of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my serva
nt
s fight, that I should n
ot
be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom n
ot
from hence.


Only when we come to Revelation do we see real warfare. Like Rick, I consider Revelation to be a series of reiterations, thoughour agreement is far from complete. The question of whether 1-18 is capable of preterist/historical or futurist interpretation we can avoid in this discussion. The end-time battles of Rev. 19 & 20 are the relevant Scriptures. Are these reiteration, or separated by 1,000 years? The end of Rev. 19 reads very like the end of Eze. 39, though the Gog/Magog battle is the conclusion of the millennium warfare in Rev. 20.

Eze. 39:
4
Thou shalt fall upon the mou
nt
ains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee u
nt
o the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

17
And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak u
nt
o every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mou
nt
ains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18
Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19
And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20
Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chari
ot
s, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.


Rev. 19:
17
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together u
nt
o the supper of the great God;

18
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, b
ot
h free and bond, b
ot
h small and great.

19
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These b
ot
h were cast alive i
nt
o a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21
And the remna
nt
were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev. 20:
7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9
And they we
nt
up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the sai
nt
s about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10
And the devil that deceived them was cast i
nt
o the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be torme
nt
ed day and night for ever and ever.


Are there any survivors from the Rev. 19 battle to populate the earth & engage in a further Gog/Magog battle? It is obviously the same battle. Note also the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth which sword is his Word - the word of judgment that condemns them to eternal death. There can be no survivors.

In the NT, after the end of the 70 weeks in Acts 7, Israel & the church are one people of God in Christ under the new/everlasting covenant in the blood of Christ. The warfare is against believers, & we will overcome.
Rev. 7:
9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, cl
ot
hed with white r
ob
es, and palms in their hands;

10
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and u
nt
o the Lamb.


13
And one of the elders answered, saying u
nt
o me, What are these which are arrayed in white r
ob
es? and whence came they?

14
And I said u
nt
o him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their r
ob
es, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15
Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them u
nt
o living fou
nt
ains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


Our responsibility in the troubled times of the present millennium is to be faithful - unto death if need be.
Mark 13:
31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall n
ot
pass away.

32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, n
ot
the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33
Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know n
ot
when the time is.

34
For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his serva
nt
s, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35
Watch ye therefore: for ye know n
ot
when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36
Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37
And what I say u
nt
o you I say u
nt
o all, Watch.

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Does anyone think what's going on today in Russia, Iran, Syria, Turkey, Lybia, Sudan and such has anything to do with these chapters?

I've heard some speculate the war will take place prior a rapture while others speculate it will take place after a rapture.

Some are putting a lot of money into trying to find oil in Israel because they believe if a huge oil reserve is discovered in Israel it will be part of the reason Russia and the others to invade.

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Does anyone think what's going on today in Russia, Iran, Syria, Turkey, Lybia, Sudan and such has anything to do with these chapters?

I've heard some speculate the war will take place prior a rapture while others speculate it will take place after a rapture.

Some are putting a lot of money into trying to find oil in Israel because they believe if a huge oil reserve is discovered in Israel it will be part of the reason Russia and the others to invade.


That is trying to make their interpretation of prophecy come true.

However, God has a plan and no man can change that, no way, no how.

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That is trying to make their interpretation of prophecy come true.

However, God has a plan and no man can change that, no way, no how.

Myself, I agree but it seems that while their number still may be rather few in comparison, a yet growing number of Christians are of the belief they can help usher in the end times. For the most part, their plan seems to be to attempt to hasten a major war against Israel.

Of course, at the same time there are many on the other end who see it as their job to do all they can to prevent a war from coming to Israel.

This also leads to my question as to how we are to view these prophecies and what impact should they have upon how we live our lives?

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Does anyone think what's going on today in Russia, Iran, Syria, Turkey, Lybia, Sudan and such has anything to do with these chapters?

I've heard some speculate the war will take place prior a rapture while others speculate it will take place after a rapture.

Some are putting a lot of money into trying to find oil in Israel because they believe if a huge oil reserve is discovered in Israel it will be part of the reason Russia and the others to invade.


Joel 2:30–32 KJV
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Ezekiel 39:6-8 the fire falls before the great tribulation in the 6th seal when the sun is turned into darkness and the moon into blood also see Revelation 6:12-17

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Joel 2:30–32 KJV
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Ezekiel 39:6-8 the fire falls before the great tribulation in the 6th seal when the sun is turned into darkness and the moon into blood also see Revelation 6:12-17

The Joel is, of course, fulfilled at Pentecost.

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The Joel is, of course, fulfilled at Pentecost.

Joel 2:28-29 has happened at Pentecost and will happen again to the 144,000 at the time the fire falls. If you read the rest of Joel it is obvious that God has not called all nations against Israel yet. The sun and moon have not gone permanently dark over Israel, as they will in the Kingdom of Jesus. See the following:

Isaiah 60:18–22 KJV
18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.
19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time.

204 AMERICA’S LAST WARNING

The solar eclipse will continue through the kingdom age and the people of Israel will live in peace under the light of Jesus who is in the New Jerusalem. The people’s children will multiply so much that one person will have a thousand offspring.

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Does anyone think what's going on today in Russia, Iran, Syria, Turkey, Lybia, Sudan and such has anything to do with these chapters?
Specifically no but - Yes - & everywhere on earth where there is persecution against the people of God. I do not consider proximity to Israel to be significant - Israel as a nation does not comprise the people of God & has no prophetic significance. Only believers, of all ethnicities, comprise the true Israel - the believing people of God.

I've heard some speculate the war will take place prior a rapture while others speculate it will take place after a rapture.
Speculation, but those chapters do indicate that the persecution war against the people of God will increase before Jesus returns - not a geographical war, but a spiritual war, wherever believers are found.

Some are putting a lot of money into trying to find oil in Israel because they believe if a huge oil reserve is discovered in Israel it will be part of the reason Russia and the others to invade.
Not relevant.

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Reasoned response, Rick. Of course the nukes will be made of wood....


Thanks, I thought so too.

Wood?

Ex. 38:22, "And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone."

Oh, sorry, I forgot - the Bible doesn't actually mean what it says when you read it with your glasses.


Does anyone think what's going on today in Russia, Iran, Syria, Turkey, Lybia, Sudan and such has anything to do with these chapters?

I've heard some speculate the war will take place prior a rapture while others speculate it will take place after a rapture.

Some are putting a lot of money into trying to find oil in Israel because they believe if a huge oil reserve is discovered in Israel it will be part of the reason Russia and the others to invade.


It's hard to tell on any of these sort of things because the Bible isn't clear. At least I haven't seen much of anything, that certainly doesn't mean it's not there and we shouldn't look for it! Things change so quickly in our world now that I think it's silly to hang a dogmatic opinion on current events unless they line up significantly with the Bible.

Russia and company attack Israel because that's what they do. Russia has been in the business of causing problems for Israel for a long time, whether she has loads of oil or not.


Myself, I agree but it seems that while their number still may be rather few in comparison, a yet growing number of Christians are of the belief they can help usher in the end times. For the most part, their plan seems to be to attempt to hasten a major war against Israel.

Of course, at the same time there are many on the other end who see it as their job to do all they can to prevent a war from coming to Israel.

This also leads to my question as to how we are to view these prophecies and what impact should they have upon how we live our lives?


It would be foolish to try and hasten the end times. God hasn't told us to do that, and it's stupid and arrogant to think we could. God will do what He wills in His own time. The Bible says that God blesses those that bless Israel and He curses those that curse her. I have no reason to think that promise ever went away. So to try and hasten war with Israel on any level is insane. I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and I think anyone with half a brain should as well.

Prophecy is great stuff, but it shouldn't dictate our everyday lives. Our job is go out and try to fulfill the Great Commission, not to warn people about the Mark of the Beast or the Antichrist. Moses, Elijah, and the 144,000 will do a great job of doing that once we're gone (yes, Ian, you will be raptured too, before the Great Tribulation, kicking and screaming the whole way... ). If the end times come up in a discussion, that's fine and we should try to use it however we can, but to let them guide our daily lives is a false balance. You have these mid and post-Tribbers out there building bomb shelters and stocking up food, but they've never given a tract to their neighbor.

That being said, the Bible is God's word and we should study it. We should try to understand absolutely everything we can in it. We should accept that fact that there will be some things that we won't ever understand, but we should never use that as an excuse to be lackadaisical about trying to understand it.

Lastly, you asked about the Rapture in relation to this battle. I think this war happens after the Rapture. The passage says that Israel will be at peace when this attack happens. I see no peace coming to Israel until the Antichrist establishes a covenant with her and several other nations. The attack comes in the first half of the Tribulation before the Beast breaks the covenant and declares himself God. Edited by Rick Schworer

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Actually, at the beginning of Israel's current existence it was Russia who gave her much support, not the United States. Were it not for Russia and one of her Warsaw Bloc countries sending Israel the weapons they desperately needed, followed by some from France, Israel likely would have fell in the beginning while the United States refused to give her aid.

It wasn't until various shifts occured with regards to the Cold War that Russia turned to supporting the Arab nations and the United States, in an effort to have influence on the ground in the Middle East, began to give support to Israel...but at a high cost, always at a high cost to Israel's actualy sovereignty.

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Interesting, I didn't know that, John. It's sad when you look at the history of nations like Russia and China.

There tend to be sad parts in the history of all nations; especially if one is looking at them from a Christian perspective.

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Allenby defeated the Turks and entered Jerusalem on foot, in Dec. 1917. Britain and Russia had been gradually reducing the Turkish posessions for nearly 100 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Allenby,_1st_Viscount_Allenby

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We can see the political alignments nearly matching Ezekiel 38.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

God has given us enough prophecy to know the end is soon.

Zephaniah 1:14–2:3 KJV
14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
2 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord’s anger come upon you.
3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord’s anger.

This Scripture very clearly teaches that when the Jewish people are back in the land of Israel, the day of the Lord’s judgment is soon!

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We can see the political alignments nearly matching Ezekiel 38.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

God has given us enough prophecy to know the end is soon.

Zephaniah 1:14–2:3 KJV
14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
2 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord’s anger come upon you.
3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord’s anger.

This Scripture very clearly teaches that when the Jewish people are back in the land of Israel, the day of the Lord’s judgment is soon!

Is that referring to ethnic Jews, Jews by conversion, practicing Jews, or what?

So, according to what you say above, the end times could not have come about from between 70 A.D. and 1948, meaning there could not have been the possibility of any imminent return of Christ throughout that time period.

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Is that referring to ethnic Jews, Jews by conversion, practicing Jews, or what?

So, according to what you say above, the end times could not have come about from between 70 A.D. and 1948, meaning there could not have been the possibility of any imminent return of Christ throughout that time period.

As I understand it, there are two racially separate streams of Jews - ethnic (Sephardic) Jews of Middle East descent are in the small minority compared with the Ashkenazi Jews of Central Asian/Southern Russian origin by conversion around AD 740 through the Khazar Empire. That conversion was to avoid association with the Muslim & Eastern Roman Empires.

Whatever the truth, I do not think there is any prophetic significance. The Gospel is to be proclaimed in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. There are no NT prophecies relating to ethnic Israel & Jesus second coming.

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Is that referring to ethnic Jews, Jews by conversion, practicing Jews, or what?

So, according to what you say above, the end times could not have come about from between 70 A.D. and 1948, meaning there could not have been the possibility of any imminent return of Christ throughout that time period.
John the rapture of the church age could have happened any time. These prophecies pertain to the day of the Lord and the second coming. However, since the appearing of Jesus at the rapture of the church age believers happens before the day of the Lord and the the day of the Lord is very,very near and hasteth greatly, the rapture MUST come soon!

As we know Thanks Giving is near because we see Christmas advertizing so we know the rapture is near because Israel is back in their land!

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