Habakkuk 3 - prophecy or history?

[Steve Schwenke]

THis is hopeless - I work a full-time job in addition to my family and our church. I don't have time for endless discussions that go nowhere. You are PURPOSEFULLY ignoring the LITERAL interpretation of the passages by putting them into the past. The Psalm you quoted is FUTURE, not past, and the way we know that is because IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN THE PAST!!! And so it is with so many of the other passages you keep shredding.

There is plenty of material out there to debunk your nonsense, and I have given you enough to chew on - but you are not interested. I have better things to do than to argue with someone who clearly is not interested in receiving the truth. I have demonstrated plenty of times that you are teaching a literal interpretation of Scripture, you are allegorizing too much, and you are dismissing far too much.

I am not upset, I just don't have time to waste on this kind of nonsense.

Goodbye

Edited February 15, 2012 by Steve Schwenke

[Covenanter]

I think I have made the case for Habakkuk 3 being his remembrance of God's mighty works in history giving him confidence for the future: the just shall live by his faith.

[Steve Schwenke]

I think I have made the case for Habakkuk 3 being his remembrance of God's mighty works in history giving him confidence for the future: the just shall live by his faith.

No, you left too many things unanswered, and symbolize everything that doesn't fit into your preterist glasses.

[Steve Schwenke]

1. I commented on v. 10 on the other thread. You assume that since there was an event in Joshua's day where the sun and moon stood still, that the entire passage is past. Your assumption is incorrect. Yes - that event happened. But that does not mean that Hab. 3 is all PAST - it means that what happened in Joshua's day will happen again. Notice the following references that refer to the SAME EVENT happening in the FUTURE. None of these passages have anything to do with Joshua:
I haven't restricted to Joshua - see my refs to Deu. 33


Deut. 33 has not yet been literally fulfilled yet, so this does you no good....

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
When did God say?

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Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall n

ot

regard silver; and as for gold, they shall n

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delight in it.

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Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall n

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spare children.

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And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

You continue to miss the point...I gave you SEVERAL verses that all say the same thing....and the connection is to a future event. Since this event is noted in Matt. 24 and Revelation 8, the conclusion is simple. This is prophetic of the Tribulation period. My conclusion is based on the fact that the prophecy is made by multiple prophets at different times....

Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
I'm sure you've what happened at Calvary.

Now you are saying that Zech. 14 was fulfilled at Calvary? insane!
Where is that army described in Joel 2? Or are you going to dismiss the particulars of that army with the wave of your "symbollic" wand? Too many holes!

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

HHmmmm...no comment? You don't see that these several verses are all connected?

2. Your reference to Deut. 33 means nothing. Moses a prophet also (Deut. 18:15). I pointed out that Jude ALSO references Deut 33, and sees it as yet FUTURE. (What was that about understanding the OT through the quotations in the NT???)
God bringing his people out of Egypt into the promised land is typical of bringing all his redeemed people into the NH&NE.

BUT...you have not shown where the events of Deuteronomy 33 actually happened during Moses' lifetime.

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Missing the point....When did THE LORD HIMSELF come as described here??? Not Moses, Not Joshua...THE LORD HIMSELF??? The passage is not refering to some ethereal "presence" of God like the Cloud of Glory over the Tabernacle. The references here are specifically a personal presence of God - not a spiritual presence, but the presence of God Himself IN PERSON, as Matthew 24 states, and Zech. 14, Isa. 63, Rev. 14 and Rev. 19, etc.

3. I gave you ONE reference demonstrating that there are times when God's prophecy of the FUTURE is written in the PAST tense. Isaiah 53 is only ONE example. CHeck every single prophecy of Jesus Christ, and you will see this happens more than once. It is a common practice of the Lord to do this.

NO COMMENT????
hhhmmm...very interesting!

4. The REAL question about Deut. 33 is "Did this actually happen?" You say it happened with Moses. I say it was PARTIALLY fulfilled with Moses, but Moses with Israel was only the TYPE of what will happen LATER. How do I know this? Well, just show me in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy where God actually met Israel at Seir or Paran. He didn't! He met them at SINAI with the Law.
God was with his people throughout their journey.

Nice dodge....but that is not what this passage and other passages are saying...unless you just symbolize it away. Of course, when you take that approach, what you are really saying is that God didn't really mean what He said....and that leads us to the conclusion that the actual words in the KJV are meaningless. The WORDs are not inspired...only the THOUGHTS....which is a heresy i utterly reject! Either the words mean what they say, or we have nothing better than any other religion.

Habakkuk 3:5 Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet.
When did this happen? Where is the account of GOD being present ON THE EARTH when Joshua went into the Promised Land?
Ten plagues - Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt.

Wrong!
it is says BEFORE HIM....not before Moses. The idea is that God was there IN PERSON. You are spiritualizing it into saying something it doesn't say.

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
I have read the book of Joshua through many times, and have never read an account of the mountains being scattered. Can you enlighten me on those references?
See Psalm 114:
¹When Israel went out of Egypt, the house of Jacob from a people of strange language;

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Judah was his sanctuary, and Israel his dominion.

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The sea saw it, and fled: Jordan was driven back.

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The mou

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ains skipped like rams, and the little hills like lambs.

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What ailed thee, O thou sea, that thou fleddest? thou Jordan, that thou wast driven back?

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Ye mou

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ains, that ye skipped like rams; and ye little hills, like lambs?

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Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jac

ob

;

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Which turned the rock i

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o a standing water, the fli

nt

i

nt

o a fou

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ain of waters.

1. You didn't give me a reference from Deut. or Joshua where they recorded these events as literally happening. You sent me to Psalms....
2. What you are saying now is that Habakkuk and Psalms just wrote in poetical terms and that these events didn't really happen...it was just a nice thing to say. How this flies in the face of II Timothy 3:16 and Prov. 30:5-6!!!

Habakkuk 3:8 Was the LORD displeased against the rivers? was thine anger against the rivers? was thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses and thy chariots of salvation?
Notice the personal pronoun "thy/thine" referring directly to the LORD - not Joshua. Where is the references in the book of Joshua that shows us where the LORD HIMSELF rode upon horses and chariots in anger? I can show you several other passages where it is prophesied of a future event where the Lord rides on a horse and delivers Israel!!! (Isa. 63:1-5, ??? no ref to the Lord riding horses there, nor in Zech. 14 ,
Rev. 19 all come to mind - just for starters!) Before we get too literal,& start on Revelation note:
¹⁵And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

AND????
Hab. 3:8 says that the Lord rode upon His horse with a chariot. Isaiah 63:1-5 corroborates that prophecy, as does REv. 19.
So, the question is, if Hab. 3:8 is a reference to a past historical event, where is it recorded in Joshua or Deuteronomy? If it isn't there, then IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. Which makes your entire thesis worthless.
Now if I understand you correctly, you don't believe Rev. 19:15 will literally happen???? Amazing!

Habakkuk 3:9 Thy bow was made quite naked, according to the oaths of the tribes, even thy word. Selah. Thou didst cleave the earth with rivers.
When and where did this happen in Joshua's day???

No comment???
This is my point! If this entire passage is past, then when did it happen in Scripture?

Habakkuk 3:11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
Did this happen in Joshua's day? Yes!
Does that mean the rest of the passage did? NO!

I have consiste

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ly referred to b

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h Moses, with the allusion to Deu.33 & Joshua, with his great victory.

And you completely ignored the other verses I gave you that showed that there will be a similar event IN THE FUTURE.

You are consistently ignoring the context. Habakkuk is remembering God's mighty dealings with Israel in the past, & THAT gives him confidence in his God for the future, even in the face of the prophesied destruction. THAT is a great lesson for us to learn & teach. Psalm 42 gives the same encouragement. Many other Psalm teach the same.

Not so...I have already admitted the historical value of the book, and Habakkuk's prophecies concerning Israel at that time. The problem is that there is too much in this passage and other passages that you have to completely overlook, ignore, and dismiss in order to make it fit. I am not willing to do that because I believe - as God said - that EVERY WORD OF GOD is pure. Every single word is significant, and we have no authority to symbolize, ignore, dismiss, allegorize, or otherwise toss when we can't make it fit our system. We can only "symbolize" something when God alerts us to the fact that HE is using a symbol. We are not authorized to invent any symbolism. We are expected to read it and believe it as it stands. When something does not fit a past event EXACTLY, then we must assume that the past event was typical of a future event.

I do not doubt there are prophetic elements in God's historical dealings with his people, also example(s) and shadow(s) of heavenly things and also: all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. We need to study the Scriptures & rightly divide the word of truth..

I am rightly dividing the word of truth. There are divisions in chapters like Hab. 3 where there might be a reference to a past historical event, but the division comes when we recognize that not EVERYTHING in the passage is past. We must divide that past reference from the future reference and recognize that the prophets themselves did not always understand every detail of what they were prophesying (I peter 1:11-12).

In Christ,

[Steve Schwenke]

I felt compelled to give this final answer. Ian has not made his case, but only left too many specific words and passages open.

[Covenanter]

I'll let the readers judge - but please - take your encouragement & confidence in the LORD from all he has done. You can trust him for your future in every situation.

[Eric Stahl]

Habakkuk was given a vision of the tribulation at the end of time. The tribulation will come after the time when the just live by faith. This period refers to the time after the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Habakkuk 2:5 talks about the Antichrist who will gather all people under his power. He is proud. He will not stay in his home kingdom because he will set up his palace in Israel, according to Daniel 11:45.
Habakkuk 2:7 is very interesting. It describes the mid-tribulation resurrection and redemption of those killed for believing in Jesus during the tribulation. They awake and go to heaven, but they will come back with Jesus to take the kingdom from the Antichrist and his army at Armageddon. The church-age believers will also be in that heavenly

140 AMERICA’S LAST WARNING

army. We will also be given two-edged swords to help kill the army of
the Antichrist at the battle of Armageddon.

Habakkuk 3:11–15 KJV
11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.
13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.
14 Thou didst strike through with his staves the head of his villages: they came out as a whirlwind to scatter me: their rejoicing was as to devour the poor secretly.
15 Thou didst walk through the sea with thine horses, through the heap of great waters.

Notice the sun and moon standing still over Israel in such a way that they will go dark before the battle of Armageddon. This is another clue to the cause and location of the darkness mentioned in Revelation 16:10 that says there will be darkness on the seat of the Beast (the Antichrist) and on his kingdom or homeland.

Revelation 16:10 KJV
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Habakkuk saw a permanent solar eclipse form over Jerusalem during which you can’t see the sun, moon, or stars. This condition is described by the prophets in Joel 2:10, Isaiah 59:10, Isaiah 60:1–2, 19–20, Isaiah 16:3, Isaiah 24:23, Amos 8:9, Jeremiah 13:16, and Job 38:13,15 and the apostle John in Revelation 16:10. When the two-hundred-mile-diameter shadow of the solar eclipse is on Israel, which is the seat of the Beast (Daniel 12:45), where else is it dark? Revelation 16:10 says that it will be dark on the kingdom or homeland of the Antichrist. Get a globe of the earth and look on the opposite side of the earth from Israel. North America

THE AMERICAN ANTICHRIST AND HARLOT BABYLON 141

will be in darkness. America is the strongest nation (Daniel 11:39) now that Israel has gathered at the end of time (Zephaniah 1:14–2:3). America will be the most deluded by God (2 Thessalonians 2:7–12), and will be the homeland of the Antichrist called Babylon (Zechariah 2:6–7).

In Habakkuk 3:12–13, notice that the Lord is bringing us, His anointed from heaven, with Him to save the remnant of Israel. Remember that we are given a two-edged sword to kill the heathen, as mentioned in Psalm 149:6–9. We are going to split the heads of the Antichrist’s army to the base of the neck, according to verse thirteen. Do you remember that the blood will flow to the bridles of horses at Armageddon? The blood will fill a valley two hundred miles long.

[John81]

Habakkuk was given a vision of the tribulation at the end of time. The tribulation will come after the time when the just live by faith. This period refers to the time after the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Habakkuk 2:5 talks about the Antichrist who will gather all people under his power. He is proud. He will not stay in his home kingdom because he will set up his palace in Israel, according to Daniel 11:45.
Habakkuk 2:7 is very interesting. It describes the mid-tribulation resurrection and redemption of those killed for believing in Jesus during the tribulation. They awake and go to heaven, but they will come back with Jesus to take the kingdom from the Antichrist and his army at Armageddon. The church-age believers will also be in that heavenly

140 �� AMERICA’S LAST WARNING

army. We will also be given two-edged swords to help kill the army of
the Antichrist at the battle of Armageddon.

Habakkuk 3:11–15 KJV
11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.
13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.
14 Thou didst strike through with his staves the head of his villages: they came out as a whirlwind to scatter me: their rejoicing was as to devour the poor secretly.
15 Thou didst walk through the sea with thine horses, through the heap of great waters.

Notice the sun and moon standing still over Israel in such a way that they will go dark before the battle of Armageddon. This is another clue to the cause and location of the darkness mentioned in Revelation 16:10 that says there will be darkness on the seat of the Beast (the Antichrist) and on his kingdom or homeland.

Revelation 16:10 KJV
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Habakkuk saw a permanent solar eclipse form over Jerusalem during which you can’t see the sun, moon, or stars. This condition is described by the prophets in Joel 2:10, Isaiah 59:10, Isaiah 60:1–2, 19–20, Isaiah 16:3, Isaiah 24:23, Amos 8:9, Jeremiah 13:16, and Job 38:13,15 and the apostle John in Revelation 16:10. When the two-hundred-mile-diameter shadow of the solar eclipse is on Israel, which is the seat of the Beast (Daniel 12:45), where else is it dark? Revelation 16:10 says that it will be dark on the kingdom or homeland of the Antichrist. Get a globe of the earth and look on the opposite side of the earth from Israel. North America

THE AMERICAN ANTICHRIST AND HARLOT BABYLON 141

will be in darkness. America is the strongest nation (Daniel 11:39) now that Israel has gathered at the end of time (Zephaniah 1:14–2:3). America will be the most deluded by God (2 Thessalonians 2:7–12), and will be the homeland of the Antichrist called Babylon (Zechariah 2:6–7).

In Habakkuk 3:12–13, notice that the Lord is bringing us, His anointed from heaven, with Him to save the remnant of Israel. Remember that we are given a two-edged sword to kill the heathen, as mentioned in Psalm 149:6–9. We are going to split the heads of the Antichrist’s army to the base of the neck, according to verse thirteen. Do you remember that the blood will flow to the bridles of horses at Armageddon? The blood will fill a valley two hundred miles long.

You keep repeating this in countless threads yet it doesn't make any more sense here than there.

[Covenanter]

I am saying that you are teaching false doctrine, and that you are leading many away from the truth with that false doctrine.

I do hope I am leading many away from the futurist fables you teach & defend as if they were truth.

Sorry, but I believe that:

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And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise u

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o salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

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All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

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That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished u

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o all good works.

Even if I am wrong, & there is a tribulation being prophesied after a rapture of believers, we still need to take & apply prophetic Scripture to ourselves & the generation in which we live. Otherwise it is unprofitable in practice.

I cannot imagine why the LORD should have given so much instruction about events which believers have no part in, & of which our Lord & his Apostles said nothing.

Scripture is for God's people - us, living, struggling. witnessing & dying here & now, & down the ages. It is not for the us to speculate a fantastic scenario where believers are absent, except perhaps for Jews who survive a slaughter worse than AD 70, Hitler & every other calamity the nation has faced, & eventually believe that God is love. And live on for 1,000 years of strict rule by Jesus in person, but sharing the earth with an increasingly godless population waiting eagerly for Satan to come out of captivity & lead them to the prophesied total defeat & fiery destruction.

You've quoted Peter - now read & accept what he teaches about OT prophets & prophecy:

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Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched dilige

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ly, who prophesied of the grace that should come u

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o you:

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Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

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U

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o whom it was revealed, that n

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u

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o themselves, but u

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o us they did minister the things, which are now reported u

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o you by them that have preached the gospel u

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o you with the Holy Ghost se

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down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look i

nt

o.

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Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be s

ob

er, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought u

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o you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Paul said the Jews were reading the OT with a vail on their hearts & minds. You also are reading with such a vail - man-made by Scofield & his disciples. I hope I can direct you to where the Holy Spirit can remove that vail.

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But their minds were blinded: for u

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il this day remaineth the same vail u

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aken away in the reading of the old testame

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; which vail is done away in Christ.

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But even u

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o this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

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Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

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Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

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But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed i

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o the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

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We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive n

ot

the grace of God in vain.

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(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Your obsession with futurism, & invented future dispensations is a serious rejection of the teachings of Jesus & his Apostles. You make think there are Scriptures you have posted that I haven't dealt with, but I have shown you the principles of interpretation that by the Holy Spirit's leading, will help you throw off the vail, & rightly understand.

[Eric Stahl]

You keep repeating this in countless threads yet it doesn't make any more sense here than there.

John not everyone will understand.
Daniel 12:8–10 KJV
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

[LindaR]

John not everyone will understand.
Daniel 12:8–10 KJV
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Does a person have to have some kind of "esoteric" knowledge to understand what you are trying to say?

[John81]

John not everyone will understand.
Daniel 12:8–10 KJV
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

According to these verses those in Christ will understand when the time of the end is upon us. This says only the wicked won't understand but the wise, which are believers in Christ, will understand.

This would suggest either we are not at the time of the end since followers of Christ don't understand as you say and if we are not at the time of the end then that means you don't understand either.

As we read elsewhere, no prophecy is of any private interpretation and yet you believe you have such a private interpretation here that God specifically has granted you wisdom to understand yet countless thousands of Christians don't see it that way.

[Steve Schwenke]

Even if I am wrong, & there is a tribulation being prophesied after a rapture of believers, we still need to take & apply prophetic Scripture to ourselves & the generation in which we live. Otherwise it is unprofitable in practice.

Agreed!

I cannot imagine why the LORD should have given so much instruction about events which believers have no part in, & of which our Lord & his Apostles said nothing.

1. We are the branches that got grafted into the tree. So only a small portion is written directly to us - we are just the branches. The main body of the Book is written to the TREE who will have it's natural branches grafted back in!

Scripture is for God's people - us, living, struggling. witnessing & dying here & now, & down the ages. It is not for the us to speculate a fantastic scenario where believers are absent, except perhaps for Jews who survive a slaughter worse than AD 70, Hitler & every other calamity the nation has faced, & eventually believe that God is love. And live on for 1,000 years of strict rule by Jesus in person, but sharing the earth with an increasingly godless population waiting eagerly for Satan to come out of captivity & lead them to the prophesied total defeat & fiery destruction.

You overlook so much that is obvious!
Believers are NEVER absent from earth. There are believers here during the Tribulation. It is just that us CHURCH-AGE believers will be taken out....the 144,000 are sealed, they preach the Tribulation gospel, many countless souls are saved, most of whom are martyred. REvelation 7.
The 1,000 year rule of Christ proves that "the Devil did NOT make anyone sin." We sin because we choose to sin. God takes great pains to remove all false accusations from the lips of unbelievers. See Romans 3:4-6

Paul said the Jews were reading the OT with a vail on their hearts & minds. You also are reading with such a vail - man-made by Scofield & his disciples. I hope I can direct you to where the Holy Spirit can remove that vail.

Not man made
Not a Scofieldite.....just an every-word Biblicist. You have a lot of words you like to dismiss and ignore....

Your obsession with futurism, & invented future dispensations is a serious rejection of the teachings of Jesus & his Apostles. You make think there are Scriptures you have posted that I haven't dealt with, but I have shown you the principles of interpretation that by the Holy Spirit's leading, will help you throw off the vail, & rightly understand.

Not an obsession - just part of this particular conversation. I can send you a list of my recent sermons and Sunday School lessons if you don't believe me.
You have shown me that you are willing to run to the Greek, ignore important words, blur the lines of distinction, generalize things so much that you overlook important differences, fail to note the differences between passages, and fail to note where a statement actually occured in Scripture. YOu then INSIST that something DID happen in the past by "spiritualizing" things away, when the plain, clear meaning was LITERAL, not symbolic, spiritual, or allegorical.
You continue to ignore plain, direct, simple questions, such as,
Why did God say "1,000 years" six times in one passage, if He meant something different?
Where does Jesus Christ say in Matthew 24 that the "eagle" represents Rome?
ETC. ad nauseum

So you have only strengthened my belief that the position I hold to is correct!
Thank you for helping!

IN Christ, Edited February 17, 2012 by Steve Schwenke

[Covenanter]

Not an obsession - just part of this particular conversation. I can send you a list of my recent sermons and Sunday School lessons if you don't believe me.
Please do - at present I am working through the Gospel of John, & particularly how Jesus relates to individuals. I was very impressed to see that when Jesus asked the Samaritan woman for a drink he was breaking through 650 years of prejudice & hostility.

You have shown me that you are willing to run to the Greek, I run to the Gk to seek clearer understanding where the English words are ambiguous. (e.g. "world" & "earth.") ignore important words, blur the lines of distinction, generalize things so much that you overlook important differences, fail to note the differences between passages, and fail to note where a statement actually occured in Scripture. No. I seek to understand the context. YOu then INSIST that something DID happen in the past by "spiritualizing" things away, when the plain, clear meaning was LITERAL, not symbolic, spiritual, or allegorical. Yet I maintain that Hab. 3 IS literal, not symbolic not allegorical, & by remembering God's dealings in the past, he can trust God through the prophesied time of trouble. That becomes a spiritual application for us all. Your prophetic interpretation rejects the literal reading & the spiritual lessons for real, living Christians.
You continue to ignore plain, direct, simple questions, such as,
Why did God say "1,000 years" six times in one passage, if He meant something different? It's the same 1,000 years with the same meaning - no different from Peter's 1,000 years. You are more guilty in expanding Daniel's 70 weeks to hundreds of weeks. And why does he repeatedly rebuke & prophecy against "this generation" when he means a distant future generation? .
Where does Jesus Christ say in Matthew 24 that the "eagle" represents Rome? Many prophecies we recognise as fulfilled when we see their fulfilment. e.g. How many rode into Jerusalem on donkeys, yet just one is the clear & absolute fulfilment? And Jesus taught his disciples about the many prophecies fulfilled by his suffering & resurrection? (Luke 24) The Romans were the feared enemy, & carried out the prophesied destruction. The eagle represents many different things in Scripture, including God himself. We read the context.
ETC. ad nauseum

[Steve Schwenke]

Not an obsession - just part of this particular conversation. I can send you a list of my recent sermons and Sunday School lessons if you don't believe me.
Please do - at present I am working through the Gospel of John, & particularly how Jesus relates to individuals. I was very impressed to see that when Jesus asked the Samaritan woman for a drink he was breaking through 650 years of prejudice & hostility.

Teaching verse by verse through Genesis - we are up to chapter 15 now.
Last Sunday morning I preached on "Where are your affections?" There were two main points to consider:
1. Things that can have an impact on our affections - Lam. 3:51, Luke 19:41, Gal. 4:17, Romans 1:26
2. Where our affections should be centered - Gal. 5:24, I Chron. 29:3, Rom. 12:10, Col 3:2

You have shown me that you are willing to run to the Greek, I run to the Gk to seek clearer understanding where the English words are ambiguous. (e.g. "world" & "earth.")

The English Bible defines itself....I never have any need to use the Greek definitions to clarify anything...

ignore important words, blur the lines of distinction, generalize things so much that you overlook important differences, fail to note the differences between passages, and fail to note where a statement actually occured in Scripture. No. I seek to understand the context.

As do I....but there is more than one context. There is the immediate context, but then, since the Bible is one book, there is the broader context...

YOu then INSIST that something DID happen in the past by "spiritualizing" things away, when the plain, clear meaning was LITERAL, not symbolic, spiritual, or allegorical. Yet I maintain that Hab. 3 IS literal, not symbolic not allegorical, & by remembering God's dealings in the past, he can trust God through the prophesied time of trouble. That becomes a spiritual application for us all. Your prophetic interpretation rejects the literal reading & the spiritual lessons for real, living Christians.

And here you are making an assumption. This thread is dealing specifically with Hab. 3, and whether or not it is prophetic or historical. The answer is BOTH.
Yes, there are some historical allusions, and yes we can make spiritual application for us today. But that is not the question at stake here. The question that must be answered is this: Is there future prophecy in Habakkuk 3? You say no, because you got hung up on the historical and application aspects of the passage.
I say YES it is, without ever denying any type of application. The application is not the issue here.

You continue to ignore plain, direct, simple questions, such as,
Why did God say "1,000 years" six times in one passage, if He meant something different? It's the same 1,000 years with the same meaning - no different from Peter's 1,000 years. You are more guilty in expanding Daniel's 70 weeks to hundreds of weeks. And why does he repeatedly rebuke & prophecy against "this generation" when he means a distant future generation?

But you dispute our interpretation of Rev. 20 as impossible...and now you say that the 1,000 years of Rev. 20 is literal? With Jesus on the throne on the earth? With the devil being loosed, and gathering an army? The very things you denounced us for earlier?

.

Where does Jesus Christ say in Matthew 24 that the "eagle" represents Rome? Many prophecies we recognise as fulfilled when we see their fulfilment. e.g. How many rode into Jerusalem on donkeys, yet just one is the clear & absolute fulfilment? And Jesus taught his disciples about the many prophecies fulfilled by his suffering & resurrection? (Luke 24) The Romans were the feared enemy, & carried out the prophesied destruction. The eagle represents many different things in Scripture, including God himself. We read the context.
ETC. ad nauseum

So there is no consistent way to interpret Scripture? We have to guess at it every time?
Nope, I don't see it that way, because the Scriptures are clear that when God uses a symbol, He defines it. For us to introduce our OWN interpretation of what we THINK it MIGHT mean, we then are guilty of private interpretation. If there is no clear definition given in the passage - Like Jesus does in Matthew 13 - then we are to assume He meant what He said. The entire idea that Jesus Christ would not define His terms to His disciples is plainly absurd.

In Christ,