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Kitagrl

Forcing boy to get chemo

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Actually, pt, you are wrong there - many states allow children to decide which parent to live with at age 13, some at 16, some not at all. Here in Indiana, children may inform the judge, but the judge decides.

The law? The law is fallible, and makes many mistakes. One of these days you will realize this - hopefully you will not be one who loses their child because you are teaching them the Bible, or perhaps not allowing them to watch tv, or maybe letting them watch too much...See, it becomes very subjective. (oh, and don't think for a minute I'm making it up = the tv examples are on a list of things to look for in so-called abusive situations). Subjectivity is the exact reason the parents are to make the decision.

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Actually, pt, you are wrong there - many states allow children to decide which parent to live with at age 13, some at 16, some not at all. Here in Indiana, children may inform the judge, but the judge decides.

The law? The law is fallible, and makes many mistakes. One of these days you will realize this - hopefully you will not be one who loses their child because you are teaching them the Bible, or perhaps not allowing them to watch tv, or maybe letting them watch too much...See, it becomes very subjective. (oh, and don't think for a minute I'm making it up = the tv examples are on a list of things to look for in so-called abusive situations). Subjectivity is the exact reason the parents are to make the decision.


:eek Boy, maybe we shouldn't have sold our TV's when we moved!

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:eek Boy, maybe we shouldn't have sold our TV's when we moved!

Oh, hey - also on the list is: are the kids too dirty? are they too clean? :loco "Abuse" is totally subjective, and any social worker who wants to can make whatever accusation and it will be effective. Kids will be taken (and are, every day) who don't need to be...and put in foster homes where the foster parents will truly abuse them all the while being paid by the government...I've known kids in that situation. It's heartbreaking and ought to be against the law...but the government has so much common sense and regular joes don't, so they are above the law - in this so-called republic, in which all are supposed to be held to the same law.

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Actually, pt, you are wrong there - many states allow children to decide which parent to live with at age 13, some at 16, some not at all. Here in Indiana, children may inform the judge, but the judge decides.

The law? The law is fallible, and makes many mistakes. One of these days you will realize this - hopefully you will not be one who loses their child because you are teaching them the Bible, or perhaps not allowing them to watch tv, or maybe letting them watch too much...See, it becomes very subjective. (oh, and don't think for a minute I'm making it up = the tv examples are on a list of things to look for in so-called abusive situations). Subjectivity is the exact reason the parents are to make the decision.


I don't know of a single state that allows a child to decide which parent they will live with. The judge may take their preference into consideration, but that decision is for the law to decide, not the child. I'll agree that the law is not perfect, but until it is changed, it is still the law and the law is supreme.

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I don't know of a single state that allows a child to decide which parent they will live with. The judge may take their preference into consideration' date=' but that decision is for the law to decide, not the child. I'll agree that the law is not perfect, but until it is changed, it is still the law and the law is supreme.[/quote']

A little off point, but at what point should we disregard the law?

For example, let's say your state begins paying for abortions for anyone who wants them. Is it moral for you to pay taxes that supports such a government?

What if our government began committing genocide? Should we pay our taxes and obey the laws then?

It is an important question. I'm not advocating disobeying law. Don't get me wrong. But at some point, IF the government is involved in something that goes very strongly against your morals, at what point do we participate in civil disobedience?

I think at some point, it becomes justified (not required, but justified).

The law is not to be followed unquestioningly. The law is not supreme. At some point, the people have a right to take back a government if the government disregards the people. That is what happened wiht the American Revolution. It can happen again. We are nowhere near that In my opinion, but I'm just saying.....the law is not supreme, because it comes form the people.

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I don't know of a single state that allows a child to decide which parent they will live with. The judge may take their preference into consideration, but that decision is for the law to decide, not the child. I'll agree that the law is not perfect, but until it is changed, it is still the law and the law is supreme.


Check out Washington State, my friend. Precedent has even been set that 13 year olds can "divorce" their parents if THEY choose.

Good points, kind.

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Should we pay our taxes and obey the laws then?




Yes. You should. Until the government asks you to commit genocide, an abortion, or any other immoral act, you must obey tax laws and other laws.

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A little off point, but at what point should we disregard the law?

For example, let's say your state begins paying for abortions for anyone who wants them. Is it moral for you to pay taxes that supports such a government?

What if our government began committing genocide? Should we pay our taxes and obey the laws then?



What if our government made it law to coral all persons of Jewish descent and then legal orders from a judge were carried out to kill them via gas chamber? Is the law still supreme?

Don't tell me it's a ridiculous example, as it has already happened to 6 or 7 million of my fellow humans.....a little war was fought over it....perhaps we were wrong to go against the German law.....

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Yes. You should. Until the government asks you to commit genocide, an abortion, or any other immoral act, you must obey tax laws and other laws.


I have to disagree here. What would have happened if the church in Germany had stood up to Hitler? Sadly, we will never know.

If we pay to support such a government, are we not doing the act itself? If I hire a hitman to kill someone, I still kill them. If I pay the government to perform an immoral deed, am I not as guilty as the government?

Were the early colonialists in America wrong for refusing to pay taxes to Britain?

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Jesus said render to Ceasar what is Ceasers. To me this mean pay the tax to the government. The Romans were much worse than the U.S is now, but we are getting there.

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Jesus said render to Ceasar what is Ceasers. To me this mean pay the tax to the government. The Romans were much worse than the U.S is now' date=' but we are getting there.[/quote']

But at what point does the government beocme illegitimate? If the government stops listening to the people and not representing the interest of the people, then is the government really a government? If the government abuses its power in terrible ways that are horribly inhumane such as genocide, do we not support that policy and are guilty of murder by supporting a government carrying out these actions?

How are we not guilty if our money is paid to further an immoral purpose? If the government murders, and we pay for the government to murder and do nothing to stop it, how can God not view us as guilty as well?

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We can preach the gospel. I see this as the only way. Making laws and being lied to by politicins hasn't worked. Change one person at a time. :hijack: Now to the thread. I don't know I am fence straddling on this issue.

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[offtopic]Jesus said to render unto Ceasar - He was in a government ruled by an emporer. We are in a republic: We the People are Ceasar. My money doesn't BELONG to the government. There are certain taxes that are Constitutional - Income taxes are not. Congress has power to levy taxes - not an independent taxing arm like the IRS. That's just my input...we do pay taxes. If we didn't, we could go to jail. Isn't that amazing and amusing? According to the IRS yellow book paying taxes is voluntary. Just try to volunteer not to pay.[/offtopic]


How are we not guilty if our money is paid to further an immoral purpose? If the government murders, and we pay for the government to murder and do nothing to stop it, how can God not view us as guilty as well?

That is a conundrum, kind, that really, truly bothers me!!!

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I have to disagree here. What would have happened if the church in Germany had stood up to Hitler? Sadly, we will never know.

If we pay to support such a government, are we not doing the act itself? If I hire a hitman to kill someone, I still kill them. If I pay the government to perform an immoral deed, am I not as guilty as the government?

Were the early colonialists in America wrong for refusing to pay taxes to Britain?


You are not guilty of things you do not intend to do. If you own a business and someone comes and works for you and you pay them, then that person uses the money you pay them to buy drugs, are you breaking the law? The same principle applies to the government. We pay taxes to support our government. When you write your income tax check, you don't apportion $5,000 for abortions, $10,000.00 for nuclear development . . . You just write a check and rely on your elected officials to act in your best interest. You are in fact paying the government to work for you. If the government then takes that money and uses it for immoral/illegal purposes, you are not held responsible because that was not what you intended to be done with the money.

You are judged by the content of your heart, not the uninteded results of your actions.

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In your example, the employee on his own time does not represent me. However, the government reprsents the people. The government acts for the people. If it then engages in terrible attrocities (such as Sadaam Hussein, Hitler, and others), how do the citizens of the country not have an obligation to stand up and try to stop it when they can feasibly do so?

If I send money to a non profit organization who pays for women to abort their children, how am I not guilty of aborting the child? If I hire a hitman, how am I not guilty of the murder? If I send taxes to a government engages in terrible attrocities such as genocide, how am I not guilty of genocide?

All I am saying is at some point, the government ceases representing the people, and there are times in history where resising such a regime is appropriate and good. There is a point when the citizens are responsible for the actions fo the government if they do nothing about it.

Right now in the US, we can fight within the system and get things done. It is difficult, but it can be done. What would happen if those channels were cut off and we could not work within the system to change it? Is that not the point at which civil disobedience is justified, and perhaps even necessary? At some point, a government gets to where it no longer respresents the people, and at that point, the people are justified in overthrowing it, not paying their taxes, and setting up a new government. This is how our country was born. It happened in history before, it can happen again.

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There is a point when the citizens are responsible for the actions fo the government if they do nothing about it.


So you are of the opinion that we should have tried every german citizen that failed to resist the Nazi government for the crimes their government committed? That sounds extreme but that is where your logic leads.

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I have to disagree here. What would have happened if the church in Germany had stood up to Hitler? Sadly, we will never know.

If we pay to support such a government, are we not doing the act itself? If I hire a hitman to kill someone, I still kill them. If I pay the government to perform an immoral deed, am I not as guilty as the government?

Were the early colonialists in America wrong for refusing to pay taxes to Britain?


Had the church stood up to Hitler, it would have probably met the same fate as many Jews did. There was no strong Christian presence in Germany. That is why Hitler came into power. The church presence that was there had lost its savor, very much like the church we have in the US today. I can name at least 100 people I personally know that didn't vote and call themselves born again Christians.

Jesus Christ paid taxes to the Roman Government. Did that make him guilty of the misdeeds committed by the Roman Government? Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's... If Christ was guilty of lawbreaking, He would not have risen, and we would all still be hopelessly lost.

As far as the government being representative of the people....that is a joke. This administration and the last does/did not represent the will of the people. While the current administration has a high approval rating, the vast majority of Americans disagree with most of the policies he has pushed and aims to push through. The people only matter at election time to our government. In between, we might as well be Rome.

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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,520607,00.html

They are literally thinking about strapping this kid down...he's a teenager!!!.....and forcing chemo on him. Wow.



The governments God ordained job is to protect its citizens from evil doers. I don't think that parents choosing an alternative method to chemo (which is sometimes worse than the cancer itself) would be considered evil doing by God. The courts need to stay out of it.

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If I send money to a non profit organization who pays for women to abort their children' date=' how am I not guilty of aborting the child? If I hire a hitman, how am I not guilty of the murder? If I send taxes to a government engages in terrible attrocities such as genocide, how am I not guilty of genocide. [/quote']
I can't make any comment about what's right and what's wrong here, but I just want to point out that in the first two examples above you are not 'rendering' and in the last example you are rendering. Perhaps a better example would be, if you were paying back a loan plus interest to the bank and the bank started using its profits to fund crime, would you be guilty of funding the crime simply by continuing to render to the bank what is the bank's? This isn't a perfect analogy either, but it does involve rendering something and that might be the key word.

wall2.jpg

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The governments God ordained job is to protect its citizens from evil doers. I don't think that parents choosing an alternative method to chemo (which is sometimes worse than the cancer itself) would be considered evil doing by God. The courts need to stay out of it.


:amen::goodpost:

"Standard" medical methods are often a matter of guessing, come with many side effects, don't always work and sometimes cause death. These are the same factors used to knock various "alternative" methods!

Medical decisions are the provence of parents and should remain so.

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:amen::goodpost:

"Standard" medical methods are often a matter of guessing, come with many side effects, don't always work and sometimes cause death. These are the same factors used to knock various "alternative" methods!

Medical decisions are the provence of parents and should remain so.


Wilch and John,
I find myself in agreement with you both again.

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Yes, I'm a jazz fan. That is actually not may favorite album or artist (though it is a close second). My favorite is Coletrane's A Love Supreme.

Anyway, if I paid interest to a bank, and the bank used it to fund crime, if I did not know about it, i would not be guilty. But if I knew about the activity and continued to support the bank anyway, I do think I would be guilty (maybe not under the law, but certainly morally). I can tak my busienss and go elsewhere.

With the government, we really do not have a choice. We are citizens of the country. We pay taxes. But if a government is not responsive to the citizens and does things that are morally reprehensible and a complete disregard for people, such as Hitler did, or any other number of rulers, and if the citizens continue to pay for that government and do not resist, I believe that is participating in the actions of the government.

There is a time and place for resistance and civil disobedience. I think taking such actions must be done VERY carefully, with much thought, and be well organized. The founders of this country did just that against Britain.

Now, when you start throwing religion into the debate, it gets more complicated. If a government behaves in ways that are contradictory to our religious beliefs (not just persecuting Christians, but disregarding humanity as a whole, committing genocide, being ruthless and opporessive, allowing soldiers to rape and kill people, etc.....is that not the point a country is getting close to Sodom and Gomorah?? When a dictator is ruthless, and permits lawlessness, destruction, and harm?

At that point, the as Christians, would the citizens of such a country not have a moral obligation to resist? If they do not resist and try to change things, are they not guilty of murder and rape??? They knowingly sent their money and supported such a regime. Why? Because they are rendering under Ceaser what is Ceaser's, or becuase resistence might get them thrown in jail, or thier women raped, so they do what is easy?

If it is wrong for citizens to resist a dictator, how can the US be justified in removing a dictator such as Sadaam Hussein for them? If the citizens do not want to stand up, how can we justify our actions?

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You are talking about revolution. If the government is doing things such as you are describing, then the people would be justified to revolt, or secede (such as the Confederacy).

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Best's viewpoint (having been there...):

NEW ULM, Minn. ? The search for a Minnesota mother who fled with her 13-year-old cancer-stricken son to escape court-ordered chemotherapy has turned to Southern California where authorities say the two were spotted Tuesday night.

A proponent of natural medicine, who launched a similar battle against chemotherapy in 1994, says he would hide the boy if necessary.

Authorities initially suspected that Daniel Hauser and his mother Colleen might be on the run with Boston resident Billy Best, who as a teenager in 1994 ran away from home to escape chemotherapy for cancer similar to Daniel's.

Best, who says he was cured by natural remedies, had appeared at a news conference in Minnesota recently to support the Hausers.

Best, in a phone interview, said he was in Boston and hadn't talked to the Hausers since they fled. He said he last saw the family May 9 when he was in Minnesota for court hearings.

But he told the Boston Herald in an interview that appeared on the newspaper's Web site Thursday he would do "anything" to help Hauser, including hiding him from authorities.

"I've been really upset about this case," Best said Wednesday during a phone interview with the Associated Press. "I don't know what to do. I want to help. I want to help them in any way, if they need a place to stay, or someone to talk to, I just want to do whatever I can for them, but I can't."
Best, now 31, was 16 when he was diagnosed with Hodgkins lymphoma in June 1994. He had five chemo treatments at Dana Farber Cancer Institute in Boston before he told his parents he couldn?t take anymore and fled to Texas.

?I had already lost so much weight and my hair and there?s a taste that comes with it. It?s a metal taste in your mouth,? he told the Boston Herald. ?You start falling apart. I was listening to my body and I didn?t think I could handle another one.?

Best spent three weeks in Houston but returned home when his parents promised they wouldn't force him to have the chemotherapy.

"The reason I left is because I could not stand going to the hospital every week," Best wrote in a note to his parents. "I feel like the medicine is killing me instead of helping me."

Best credits the natural blood cleanser Essiac, which his family sells on its Web site, and other herbal supplements and dietary changes for curing him. He has been cancer-free since July 1995.



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,520960,00.html

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