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Covenanter

Interpetation of prophecy

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"This generation" cannot possibly mean any other geneartion athn the one that Christ was addressing.

Try to work out how it happened rather than to say that according to tour interperetation, that it did not happen.

The saints will be raised on the "Last Day"

I have just been reading John's gospel again and have noticed the following, that believers would be raised on The Last Day
John 6:39 And this is the Father�s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

I also read that the last day would be the day of judgment.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

No room for any tribulation after the saints are raised and the day of judgment.

Rick is correct.
WHICH day of Judgment?
There is the Judgment seat of Christ referred to in II Cor. 5:10 - but the Jewish people knew nothing of this.
Theres is also the Judgment of Nations referred to in Matthew 25:31-46 - but this is a judgment of NATIONS, not individuals.
There is the LAST JUDGMENT that all OT believers looked forward to, which is described in Rev. 20:11-15.

THese are all different in nature - different peoples being judged for different things, on a different basis.

The Tribulation period CLEARLY precedes the general judgment of Rev. 20, and there is a resurrection of saints described in the first part of Rev. 20.
See? It all fits.
What doesn't fit is calling the days of Jesus Christ "the last days." Those "last days" sure have lasted a long time!!! 2,000 some years now! WOW!

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Steve,

Isn't the judgment described in Revelation 20:11-15 the Great White Throne Judgment? Only the unsaved are resurrected to this judgment. As far as I know, this is not a "general" judgment. I don't believe this is a judgment to which anyone would be "looking forward"...because this is a judgment of damnation. And I agree, the Tribulation period precedes this judgment. The 1,000 year reign of Christ also precedes this judgment.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

According to Daniel 12:1-3, the resurrection of the Old Testament saints (the righteous dead) occurs at the Second Coming of Christ to set up His earthly Kingdom in Jerusalem:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


Events preceding Christ’s EARTHLY Kingdom (Way of Life Encyclopedia: Kingdom of God)

EVENTS PRECEDING THE FULFILLMENT OF THIS KINGDOM: Old Testament prophecy does not foresee the church age. This period was then an unrevealed mystery (Ephesians 3:1-10). A major theme of Old Testament prophecy was the kingdom of God promised to Israel. This kingdom is yet future to the church age, and Old Testament prophecy describes the events leading up to its establishment. Through the following outline we can understand what events the Old Testament saints were expecting for the future, though the exact order of these events was not necessarily understood. We pick up our outline following the 70 year captivity:

(1) Release of Jews by Cyrus (Isaiah 44:28; Jeremiah 29:10).

(2) Rebuilding of the walls and city of Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25).

(3) Judgment upon Babylon (Jeremiah 25:12-14).

(4) Messiah would come 483 years after the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25).

(5) Messiah cut off (Daniel 9:26; Isaiah 53; Psalm 22).

(6) Messiah resurrected (Psalm 16:8-11). Some Old Testament saints understood this truth. David did (Acts 2:30-31), and Jesus rebuked the disciples for not understanding these things (Luke 24:25-27).

(7) Partial regathering of Israel from the nations and restoration to the land, yet still in a condition of spiritual death (Ezekiel 37).

(8) Day of the little horn (Daniel 7:8-14; 8:9-14,23-25; 9:27; 11:21-45). The length of this period was revealed to be seven years, according to Daniel 9:27.

(9) Great Tribulation (Daniel 12:1; Isaiah 24). Often called "the day of the Lord," this is the period during which God will purge the rebels from Israel and prepare her for the New Covenant (Ezekiel 20:33-44). He will also judge the world for sin, pride, and idolatry (Isaiah 24; Joel 2:1-3). This period of judgment will be of unprecedented severity (Daniel 12:1) and will be worldwide (Isaiah 24:1-6,19; 13:9-13).

(10) Israel will turn to the Lord (Hosea 3:4-5; 5:15; Jeremiah 3:12-19; Zechariah 12:9-10).

(11) The King will come to the Mount of Olives and destroy Israel's enemies (Zechariah 14:1-4).

(12) Old Testament saints will be resurrected (Daniel 12:1-3).

(13) Israel will be regathered from among the nations and established in her land forever under the glorious reign of the Messiah (Zechariah 14:8-21; Isaiah 11:10-12; 60:9; Jeremiah 23:3-8; 30:7-11; 31:8-11; 32:37-44; 33:6-26).
Edited by LindaR

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Understanding the middle of the tribulation time line

Revelation 11:15 KJV

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

WHAT HAPPENED TO cause the kingdoms of this world to become
the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ?

Revelation 12:7–14 KJV
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against
the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

When the seventh angel blows the trumpet to start the second half of the tribulation period called the great tribulation, God declares war on Satan. God sends the archangel Michael with the faithful angels to defeat the dragon we call the Devil, or Satan. Satan will be cast to the earth with the rebellious angels, and we see that the dragon, or Satan, will persecute Israel (the woman) for a short time.
Did you notice that the third woe corresponds to the seventh trumpet judgment?
Verse twelve indicates that the Devil is the third woe! Then the passage goes on to say that the people of Israel are carried away on the wings of an eagle. It will be for three-and-a-half times, or three-and-a-half years. The sixth trumpet judgment was finished one hour after the two witnesses completed their 1260 day ministry and completed the first half of the seven-year tribulation. The seventh trumpet judgment and third woe will last through the last three-and-a-half years of the tribulation and will complete the seven-year tribulation period. Therefore, the seventh trumpet judgment lasts for the whole time of the great tribulation.
If you were taught that Revelation 11:15 refers to the end of the tribulation, I hope you now understand that the seventh trumpet judgment occurs in the middle of it. Yes, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and His Son Jesus Christ in the middle of the tribulation by heavenly warfare.

Isaiah 24:17–23 KJV
17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

In the tribulation period, after the earth starts to reel to and fro because of the asteroid impact in Revelation 8:8, In verse 21 the host of the high ones is Satan and his rebellious angels. They will be gathered to the earth together with the kings of the earth by God, and the rebellious angels will be imprisoned with the rebellious men on the earth and be shut up for many days. It will be for three-and-a-half years, as we saw in Revelation 12:14. God will conquer the Devil and cast him to the earth for judgment. The Lord and His Christ will not occupy the earth during the three-and-a-half years of the great tribulation, but they will own the earth and will use it as a prison. After the battle of Armageddon, Jesus will rule the earth with a rod of iron, or by force. During the last half of the tribulation, God’s judgment of earth will increase in intensity over time.

Edited by Eric Stahl

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I am seeking to establish principles of interpretation of prophecy - reasons for believing as we do.
Replies in blue, in loc.


Rick, I agree with you.
The problem with the position of Covenanter is that sooner or later, those who hold this position are FORCED to deny a literal interpretation of Scripture, and end up with Origen's corrupt "Allegorization" methods.

My "position" is with an open Bible, word studies using Strong - not taking his definitions as definitive, but using the occurences & usage as a guide. If Scripture has to be interpreted, rather than read in a literal sense & understood, we need sound principles for understanding, as Peter wrote:

10
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched dilige
nt
ly, who prophesied of the grace that should come u
nt
o you:

11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.


Peter immediately directs us to a Christ centred interpretation, rather than an Israel centred interpretation, underlined in the next chapter when he quotes Exodus 19 & Hosea:


9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness i
nt
o his marvellous light;

10
Which in time past were n
ot
a people, but are now the people of God: which had n
ot
ob
tained mercy, but now have
ob
tained mercy.


There are plenty of OT Scriptures prophesying a glorious & eternal future for Israel, which the NT writers apply to all the redeemed, not reserved for national Israel, e.g. Romans & Galatians.

For instance, the example Covenanter gave of Isaiah 13 exposes this tendency. Notice:


Daniel does not record the fulfillment of this prophecy. There is no record of the constellations not shining, nor of the moon witholding its light in the Daniel passage.

Daniel certainly records the Medes taking the kingdom of Babylon. That is the prophecy in Isa. 13. That is stated by the LORD, & is the simple, literal meaning of the prophecy. Daniel also prophesies a succession of kingdoms. He further prophesies in response to Nebuchadnezzar's dream, his great humbling & reinstatement. That will take us on to Isa. 14. The "extravagant" language of prophecy is not (necessarily) to be understood literally, but to be understood in context. A possible significance of the heavenly signs will be seen in Joshua's victory when the sun stood still. Or that while God looked on Neb. as head of gold he was to an extent ruling in God-given light, but that light would be extinguished (but I don't have to provide a literal interpretation):


37
Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

38
And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given i
nt
o thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.


The point is, of, course, that the interpertation of Is. 13 is stated. Why look for an interpretation nearly 3,000 years away which would be meaningless to Isaiah & his hearers. Sure Assyria was the immediate threat, but that did not stop other specific references to Babylon. After all, Assyria would be driven back, while Babylon would overwhelm Judah & destroy the temple - a much greater threat. Isaiah later names Cyrus as the man ordering their return from Babylon.

However, there is a matching reference to the Isaiah prophecy in Revelation and Matthew.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Those don't look like matching references.

There are several other verses in the OT prophets that support the view of this being yet future.
Certainly there was an immediate prophecy toward Babylon in view, but remember, during Isaiah's lifetime, the principle antagonist of Israel was ASSYRIA, not Babylon. Babylon had not yet risen to power. Therefore, any impending prophecies of Babylon's destruction were meaningless to the common man in Israel. It only makes sense that this has a distant reference to the corrupt mystery Babylon mentioned in Revelation 17-18.

We don't know if Isaiah's prophecies are in chronological order. He prophesied through the reign of Hezekiah who had dealings with the rising power of Babylon. (39) His prophecies make sense in their immediate time context, though many prophecies look on to the Messiah & the eternal kingdom. I don't know how you can claim that prophecies for the next 50-100 years referring to warring nations"were meaningless to the common man in Israel" & yet make sense 2,500 - 3,000 years hence.

Furthermore, once we take the allegorical method, and detach the OT prophecies from anything of a futuristic or spiritual element, then we have a mess in Isaiah 14.
Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Should we now change this verse to get rid of the reference to Lucifer, or recognize that there are many places in Scripture where the Lord mentions Babylon (Isaiah 13), but is CLEARLY pointing to something/somebody else!

Are there any clear references in the OT to Babylon that "CLEARLY pointing to something/somebody else?" Let us assume initially that Isa. 14 is referring to the literal king of Babylon - and compare with his dream in Dan. 4:

10
Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.

11
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached u
nt
o heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

16
Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given u
nt
o him; and let seven times pass over him.


Neb. was humbled - but graciously spared - but soon Belshazzar was humbled & destroyed, & Babylon was never again a power. Babylon's great wickedness & wars against Israel remained legendary, so the NT writers & we can see in Babylon the war of Satan a\against the people of God. It is true that the powers that be are ordained by God. Neb. acknowledged that, but their hearts are satanic, & once they have ruled, they perish as recorded in Isa. 14. We can see Satan destroyed in Isa. 14 - the great power against Israel brought down to the grave.

The problem with putting such prophecy into a distant future "dispensation" is that it is not useful to its immediate hearers, nor people living in the time of Christ, nor even to us. How can we read & profit, unless of course we write best-seller futuristic fiction like Tim & Jerry?

No. The futuristic interpretation robs Scripture of its meaning, & Christians of its real blessings.

Finally, compare Isa. 13 with Psal 137.

16
Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.


8
O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

9
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.


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We do need a clear understanding of "all the prophecies regarding Israel and Palestine." That is vital for a proper & profitable reading of the OT prophetic Scriptures.



Just curious....to "which degree" do you believe the Olivet prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD?

The nation Israel is back in the land in preparation for the fulfillment of all the prophecies regarding Israel and Palestine. Earthquakes, wars, famine, and false teachings are increasing just as Jesus said they would. I believe the first 3 verses have been fulfilled (the destruction of the temple in 70 AD) and the next 3 (apostasy and deception are getting worse and worse) are being fulfilled now.

I am very disurbed by the anti-semitic teaching of the pre-trib disps. The generation that rejected its Messiah suffered judgment, finally in AD 70. They were declared to be Abrahamic covenant breakers by John B, Jesus, Peter & Stephen. However for 35 years the Apostles pleaded with them to repent, & of course many thousands did. Thereafter they were counted in by the Gospel, & seen in heaven as the redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The teaching that the Jews are doomed to suffer down the ages, including under Hitler, and suffer extreme tribulation after the supposed "rapture" when 2/3 of them will be destroyed is evil. Encouraging Jews to settle in Israel so the maximumm number can be destroyed in the trib. is utterly repugnant to the Gospel. It is totally foreign to both testaments. Why should Jews who had no part in the rejection of their Messiah suffer thousands of years of persecution with God's approval?

There is no NT teaching of the restoration of Israel as a nation. They are, of course, welcomed by the Gospel, but not as a separate people but as one people of God with Gentile believers, all in Christ. (Yes - I have read Rom. 11.) Try to fit the tribulation slaughter of the Jews into this glorious prophecy:


21
And say u
nt
o them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them i
nt
o their own land:

22
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mou
nt
ains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided i
nt
o two kingdoms any more at all.

23
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24
And David my serva
nt
shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgme
nt
s, and
ob
serve my statutes, and do them.

25
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given u
nt
o Jac
ob
my serva
nt
, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my serva
nt
David shall be their prince for ever.

26
Moreover I will make a covena
nt
of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covena
nt
with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27
My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.


While you are trying, look for a millennium there, ending in a world-wide satan-led rebellion & fire from heaven.
Edited by Covenanter

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Isaiah 13:10-11 is happening in the sixth seal judgment when God is causing men to fight a nuclear war.

The sixth seal Judgment (God's nuclear war)

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? KJV

Isa 25:3-7

4 For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
6 And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. KJV

Isa 34:1-4
34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. KJV

Isa 51:6
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished. KJV

(In) Jer 25:15 God sends the cup of judgment that looks like a great whirlwind and goes from nation to nation.
Isaiah 26:11 says that the fire of Israel's enemies will destroy them.


Jer 25:29-33
29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the Lord of hosts.
30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The Lord shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the Lord hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the Lord.
32 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. KJV

Joel 2:30-31
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, (((before ))) the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. KJV

Zech 14:12-14
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. KJV

Isa 33:11-12
11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire. KJV

Before the great and terrible day of the Lord, God will cause men to send evil from nation to nation that will look like pillars of fire and great whirlewinds that will have a hot blast with a shadow of a hot cloud which will burn men as lime and destroy the protective vail over every nation. This causes the sun to become black as sackcloth and the moon to look like blood and the heavens to roll up as a scroll. I believe God causes men to fight a nuclear war. God used nations to judge Israel all through history and He is going to do it again.

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I agree that the majority of the scriptures in the Pauline epistles speak about the spiritual side of the Abrahamic covenant which was fulfilled in Christ at the First Coming. The reason for this is easy to understand. Throughout the book of Acts, and even after Acts 7, the apostles are consistently giving out the warning that the Gospel will turn to the Gentiles. Paul finalizes this all in the very last chapter of Acts when he reiterates that the Gentiles will hear the Gospel.

Acts 13:46, "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

Acts 28:28, "Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it."

So by the middle of the book of Acts and certainly by the end of it the stage has been set in history for the Gospel to swing from an Jewish only message (Matthew 10:5), to a mostly Jewish message (Acts 1:8, 7), to a mostly Gentile message (Acts 13:46), to a Gentile only message (Acts 28:28). This isn't to say that Jews can't or don't trust Christ, they do, but the fact remains that the vast majority of God’s people spiritually are not ethnic Jews – something that is new since Abraham, that's why it was a big deal when they were mentioning it in book of Acts.

The point is this: the Pauline epistles were written under the above set of circumstances, a mostly Gentile message. Paul is not going to be talking about the Millennial kingdom nearly as much as he is going to be talking about the faith of Abraham and the spiritual blessing of Abraham. When Paul goes to the Old Testament (that was the only Bible they had!) to illustrate things that apply doctrinally to the church he is naturally going spiritualize much of what he reads. Therefore Paul teaches us that there's spiritual application to things in the Old Testament that we should study for our betterment. If you think about it, how many great preaching messages have you heard that were brought to you out of the Old Testament stories, not the New?

To sum it up, most of the New Testament is going to come at the Old Testament from this angle, and to expect it any other way would be silly. That being said, the kingdom is still mentioned in the New Testament and the truth of the literal, physical, millennial reign of Christ and the literal, physical, earthly promises to Abraham that have not yet been fulfilled.

Here's some of the references to the Millennial kingdom in the New Testament:

Matthew 8:11, “And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”

People journeying to meet the patriarchs in the Millennium.

Matthew 13:43, “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

You can apply this spiritually today, as in the righteous should shine forth as the sun. But history and Paul's account of the last days shows nothing but apostasy when it comes to the church over the long haul. However, in the Millennium it will be very different.

Matthew 25 (whole chapter)

The Judgment of the Nations is a judgment that occurs after the seven year Great Tribulation. It is a far cry from the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20. In Revelation 20, the dead are judged according to their works and cast into the Lake of Fire. There is no account given in Revelation 20 of people making it through this judgment. In the judgment in Matthew 25 you have people being judged by their treatment of the brethren and some are damned and some are not. Without getting caught up in the minutia with my fellow premillennial brothers of what the specifics of this judgment are, I just want to focus on the fact that it is a judgment that follows the Battle of Armageddon and is night-and-day different than any amillennial or postmillennial general judgment. Jesus Christ, sitting on the throne of His glory here, is on Earth.

Mark 11:10, “Blessed [be] the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.”

Before Paul, before the Gospel had turned to the Gentiles, here we have people speaking about the Old Testament kingdom. Why weren't they listening to Jesus telling them all that there was to be no future kingdom for Israel! Unless He wasn't actually saying that.

Luke 22:29-30, “And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30) That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

The twelve tribes of Israel play a part in the future kingdom that was promised in the Old Testament. The twelve tribes of national Israel are in the Kingdom of Christ. Is that kingdom now or later?

Acts 1:6, “When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?”

After spending three and a half years with Christ, the apostles ask if the kingdom is going to come now to Israel. This is either because they were stupid and didn't listen to Jesus trying to tell them over the course of three and half years that there is no kingdom for Israel (what kind of teacher does that make Jesus out to be?) or they had every right to ask that question because one day there is going to be a wonderful kingdom for Israel. You decide.

I Cor. 15:24, “Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

This is the transition from going from the Millennial Kingdom to the Everlasting Kingdom. A-mills and post-mills think they're the same.

II Tim. 2:12, “If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:”

This is speaking of the Millennial reward for the Christian who suffers for Christ. He doesn't reign now. How exactly was John Knox reigning while he was burning at the stake and how was William Tyndale reigning as he was running for his life? Spiritually? They were spiritually reigning with Christ will suffering on the Earth at the same time? That's silly, but even if you want to make the stretch that that is what it is talking about then if we are to reign spiritually then we are to be denied spiritually. In other words, if a Christian denies Christ they lose their salvation. We know that's not the case so the application is physical. If it is physical it can't be now! It's a future reign in the Millennium.

II Tim. 4:1, “I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;”

Two things here: the appearing and the kingdom. Both come later!

Rev. 5:10, “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

Are Christians reigning on the Earth now? Is that why America, which is supposed to be the example of a Christian nation, is wicked? Have Christians ever reigned on the Earth? No way, Hosea. Christians are mocked and persecuted. "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."

Rev. 12:10, “And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.”

When the kingdom comes Satan will be cast down. Satan is currently bound in the Bottomless Pit? Has that happened yet? Satan is weak and feeble and the saints of the most high run the show on Earth, right? No! The kingdom of Christ is much better than what we live in now and shame on anyone that would dare to say that we are living in the kingdom now. This world is not run how Jesus Christ will run it in the future.

Rev. 11:15, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Today? Are the kingdoms of this world in submission and obedience to Christ? Can one spiritualize this passage to fit today? You can't make this passage fit today any more than you could make Revelation 21:24 fit today.

Rev. 20 (Whole chapter)

Six times in Revelation 20 God tells us about a 1,000 year future reign. SIX TIMES.

We're not done yet.

What about Israel and Abraham? We understand that the focus of the Abrahamic covenant in the New Testament is going to be about things that apply straight to us today (imagine that) as New Testament Christians within the body of Christ, but is there anything in the New Testament to prove that national Israel still gets something? We know that some of the promises made to Abraham are fulfilled spiritually today, in Christ, for the church - but are all?

No.

Romans 9:1-6, “I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Paul clearly explains in this passage that there are two Israels. One is spiritual Israel (saved Christians) and the other is national Israel. So we know God’s plan for spiritual Israel, but what about the other one?

It’s all in Romans 11.

“1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,”

Paul says God hasn’t “cast away” his people. He’s speaking in the context of verse 1 – ethnic, national Israel. While Jews are more than welcome to trust Christ today, Paul is talking about something else.

“7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.”

Remember there are two Israels? We see here in verse 7 that Paul is talking about one Israel not getting what they were seeking, and the other Israel (the election, in this case) receiving it. The Israel that doesn’t get it is “blinded.”

“25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”

This passage explains it all. Some will tell you the “all Israel shall be saved” in verse 26 is talking about spiritual Israel (us), and the “covenant unto them” is talking about Christ’s taking away our sins. They stop there, ignoring the very next verse in which the Israel in verse 26 and the “them” in verse 27 are identified as being an enemy of the Gospel! Saved people are not enemies of the Gospel – but try moving to the nation of Israel today as a Bible believing missionary and see how well it goes!

What God is saying is that there is a promise to the ethnic nation of Israel that they will all be saved one day. This is the whole point of the Tribulation, Second Advent, and Millennium. During the Tribulation, Israel will be taken through the fire and come out the other side a saved nation. They will call upon and receive their Messiah. The Millennium will follow that, at which time the nation of Israel will receive the land promised to Abraham, thousands of years ago.

Zech. 8:3, “Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.”

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Eric:
Joel 2:30-31
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, (((before ))) the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.

Yet Peter preached the Gospel of Christ from that Scripture at Pentecost:
20
The sun shall be turned i
nt
o darkness, and the moon i
nt
o blood, before the great and n
ot
able day of the Lord come:

21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Because, of course, the sun was turned to darkness at Calvary, which was the greatest & most terrible/notable day of the LORD in all history.


Before the great and terrible day of the Lord, God will cause men to send evil from nation to nation that will look like pillars of fire and great whirlewinds that will have a hot blast with a shadow of a hot cloud which will burn men as lime and destroy the protective vail over every nation. This causes the sun to become black as sackcloth and the moon to look like blood and the heavens to roll up as a scroll. I believe God causes men to fight a nuclear war. God used nations to judge Israel all through history and He is going to do it again.
Blatant anti-semitism !

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Blatant anti-Semitism? Are you saying that God never used nations to judge Israel? I don't agree with everything Brother Eric is saying but he is correct when he said, "God used nations to judge Israel all through history..."

I think saying that God is through with the Jews as a nation is anti-Semitism.

I think saying that God won't keep his Earthly promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David is anti-Semitism.

Besides all that, isn't is a little hypocritical to suggest that dispensationalists are so anti-Semitic when you think God could save everyone, but rather chooses to purposefully and willfully send the vast majority of his creation to burn forever? Where does that put you? That's a lot worse than being anti-Semitic to me, and it paints God out to be something He's not.

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Paul clearly explains in this passage that there are two Israels. One is spiritual Israel (saved Christians) and the other is national Israel. So we know God’s plan for spiritual Israel, but what about the other one?

It’s all in Romans 11.

“1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,”

Paul says God hasn’t “cast away” his people. He’s speaking in the context of verse 1 – ethnic, national Israel. While Jews are more than welcome to trust Christ today, Paul is talking about something else.

“7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.”

Remember there are two Israels? We see here in verse 7 that Paul is talking about one Israel not getting what they were seeking, and the other Israel (the election, in this case) receiving it. The Israel that doesn’t get it is “blinded.”

“25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”

This passage explains it all. Some will tell you the “all Israel shall be saved” in verse 26 is talking about spiritual Israel (us), and the “covenant unto them” is talking about Christ’s taking away our sins. They stop there, ignoring the very next verse in which the Israel in verse 26 and the “them” in verse 27 are identified as being an enemy of the Gospel! Saved people are not enemies of the Gospel – but try moving to the nation of Israel today as a Bible believing missionary and see how well it goes!

What God is saying is that there is a promise to the ethnic nation of Israel that they will all be saved one day. This is the whole point of the Tribulation, Second Advent, and Millennium. During the Tribulation, Israel will be taken through the fire and come out the other side a saved nation. They will call upon and receive their Messiah. The Millennium will follow that, at which time the nation of Israel will receive the land promised to Abraham, thousands of years ago.

Zech. 8:3, “Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.”

Rick,

I am pretty much in agreement with what you have explained here...except for your use of the term "spiritual Israel" for saved Christians. Do you mean that the Church is "spiritual Israel"? Where do you find the term "spiritual Israel" in Scripture? That term is used by those who teach "Replacement Theology", teaching that the Church is now Israel. I know that is not what you mean, but when you use the term "spiritual Israel" it is certainly sounds like you are leaning in that direction.


The Church is not the "new Israel" or the "spiritual Israel," but rather "one new man" created of two groups, saved Jews and saved Gentiles (Ephesians 2:15; 1 Corinthians 10:32). The terms "Israel," "Israelite," and "Jew," are used in the New Testament to refer to national, ethnic Israel. The term "Israel" is used of the nation or the people as a whole or the believing remnant within. It is not used of the Church in general or of Gentile believers in particular. Saved Gentiles of this present age are spiritual sons of Abraham who is the father of all who believe (Romans 4:12,16; Galatians 3:7,26,29), whether Jews or Gentiles; but believing Gentiles are not Israelites [that is, they are not the sons of Jacob]. The Israelites are carefully defined by Paul in Romans 9:4-5.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/dispen.htm

There is a link on the above webpage explaining how "Israel is used in the New Testament:

http://www.middletow...ed/israelaf.htm

I am an ethnic Jew, but I am also a born again Christian and a member of the Body of Christ/the Church. My ethnicity didn't change when I trusted Christ, but my eternal destination has changed.

There is only ONE Israel, and that is national Israel. The "Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 is not the Church or "spiritual Israel"...but rather the believing Jewish remnant within the Body of Christ/the Church.

Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Edited by LindaR

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Steve,

Isn't the judgment described in Revelation 20:11-15 the Great White Throne Judgment? Only the unsaved are resurrected to this judgment. As far as I know, this is not a "general" judgment. I don't believe this is a judgment to which anyone would be "looking forward"...because this is a judgment of damnation. And I agree, the Tribulation period precedes this judgment. The 1,000 year reign of Christ also precedes this judgment.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



And those whose names are written in he book of life? Edited by Invicta

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Sister, you should know that I'm not "leaning" towards Replacement Theology! Just ask Invicta, Ian, and Anime if they think I'm leaning that way. :-)

While it's true the term "spiritual Israel" is not used in Scripture, the idea is there. Just like Rapture and Trinity. Paul says everything but call the church "spiritual Israel" here:

Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Rom. 9:6, "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

I guess I could say I was an "inward Jew," but it's really just the same as saying I'm a spiritual Jew. I see no problem with saying the church is spiritual Israel as it enjoys the spiritual blessings from the promises made to Abraham. Paul clearly states that there are two Israels, one is the elect and the other is partially blinded.

I do see where your concern comes from though, so I typically only use the term "spiritual Israel" when dealing with subject so as to not confuse folks (or try not to). Any other time I say "the church," or something like that.

Just because someone else hijacks a term and uses it for false doctrine, I don't think we should be afraid to use it. I have no problem using the term the elect, predestination, spiritual Israel, covenant, Holy Ghost, etc.

If you think I'm wrong, that's fine. Let’s not get into it here and now, please consider that this is more of an in-house debate of terminology, whereas what Brother Ian and Invicta is pushing is rampant false doctrine.

Edited by Rick Schworer

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I do not consider that the church has replaced Israel, I have never said it was, What I have said is that the church is grafted in, which is what the scriptures say.


I have no problem with that. The Old Testament promises future Israel a new heart, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, their sins being forgiven, etc. We are very blessed to partake in many of the spiritual blessings promised to Abraham.

That doesn't mean the physical ones are done away with though, and the spiritual promises to the physical seed of Abraham still remain as well to be fulfilled in the future.

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I have no problem with that. The Old Testament promises future Israel a new heart, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, their sins being forgiven, etc. We are very blessed to partake in many of the spiritual blessings promised to Abraham.

That doesn't mean the physical ones are done away with though, and the spiritual promises to the physical seed of Abraham still remain as well to be fulfilled in the future.


I agree, Paul says that Israel will be graffed in again. tThere will be one complete church then.

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God will kill all the unholy Jews during the tribulation. Read verse 4.

4 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
2 In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
—Isaiah 4:1–3 KJV
Isaiah tells us that by the end of the fighting there will be seven women of marrying age for each man in Israel. It is hard enough to keep one wife happy. I don’t envy those Jewish men who have seven of them! On a more serious note, however, think about this. If only 33 percent of the Jews survive and only one of eight adults is a man of marriageable age, there will not be many Jewish men alive after the tribulation or the time of Jacob’s trouble.



4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

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Sister, you should know that I'm not "leaning" towards Replacement Theology! Just ask Invicta, Ian, and Anime if they think I'm leaning that way. :-)

While it's true the term "spiritual Israel" is not used in Scripture, the idea is there. Just like Rapture and Trinity. Paul says everything but call the church "spiritual Israel" here:

Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Rom. 9:6, "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

I guess I could say I was an "inward Jew," but it's really just the same as saying I'm a spiritual Jew. I see no problem with saying the church is spiritual Israel as it enjoys the spiritual blessings from the promises made to Abraham. Paul clearly states that there are two Israels, one is the elect and the other is partially blinded.

I do see where your concern comes from though, so I typically only use the term "spiritual Israel" when dealing with subject so as to not confuse folks (or try not to). Any other time I say "the church," or something like that.

Just because someone else hijacks a term and uses it for false doctrine, I don't think we should be afraid to use it. I have no problem using the term the elect, predestination, spiritual Israel, covenant, Holy Ghost, etc.

If you think I'm wrong, that's fine. Let’s not get into it here and now, please consider that this is more of an in-house debate of terminology, whereas what Brother Ian and Invicta is pushing is rampant false doctrine.

All I would ask you to do is to read the articles on those two webapges to which I posted those links, especially the one concerning how "Israel" is used in the New Testament. It was written by Arnold Fruchtenbaum, who is Jewish and a born again Christian. The other one is on dispensationalism.

I have no problem using the terms "elect, predestination, covenant, Holy Ghost"....all those terms are biblical terms that have been "hijacked", but I do have a problem with the use of the term "spiritual Israel". I don't believe Paul taught that there were two "Israels". He taught that the Church was "one new man" (Ephesians 2:15) and saved Gentiles are the "spiritual SEED" of Abraham (which is, IMO, not synonymous with Israel). There are those in the Church who are ethnic Jews....would you call those born again Jews "spiritual Israel" also? It's a confusing term and if you would like, we can carry this conversation over to a PM.

In Romans 9:6, Paul is here speaking only of a division within ethnic Israel. Some of them are believers and thus truly Israel, whereas others, though ethnically Israelites, are not truly Israel, since they are not elect and believing . . . No Gentiles are found in the statement at all. (‘The Israel of God’: An Exegetical and Eschatological Case-Study” by S.Lewis Johnson, p. 189)

http://www.middletow...ed/israelaf.htm


Invicta,
The church has not been grafted into Israel.


Romans 11:17

God must have branches in keeping with the root. Unbelieving Jews bear no resemblance to father Abraham who "believed God" (Gen. 15:6). The natural branches refer to Israel. The wild branches refer to the Gentiles. The cultivated olive tree refers to the place of God’s blessing. The wild olive tree is not the place of blessing (cf. Eph. 2:11-13) but branches from the wild olive tree are grafted into the cultivated olive tree and are then able to partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree (Rom. 11:17). Some of the natural branches were "broken off," and verse 20 gives the reason why ("because of unbelief"). Wild branches were "grafted in among them" because of faith in Christ--compare Rom. 9:30-32--and thus are in the place of blessing. Believing Gentiles are able to enjoy God’s salvation and God's righteousness and God's Spirit--see Gal. 3:14--that the blessings of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the Spirit through faith.

http://www.middletow...ns/romans11.htm

Edited by LindaR

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I think we're starting to get off track. The important thing here to realize is that there is a future physical, earthly, Jewish, Millennial kingdom.

The King and this future kingdom are the focus of the Old Testament, and the kingdom is also referred to in the New Testament. The physical promises of a land grant and national salvation for the Jews, given to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David are not done away with in the church. Post #32 clearly lays this all out.

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I think we're starting to get off track. The important thing here to realize is that there is a future physical, earthly, Jewish, Millennial kingdom.

The King and this future kingdom are the focus of the Old Testament, and the kingdom is also referred to in the New Testament. The physical promises of a land grant and national salvation for the Jews, given to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David are not done away with in the church. Post #32 clearly lays this all out.

I agree 100%!

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Do you disps read & believe Hebrews?

1:
1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past u
nt
o the fathers by the prophets,
2
Hath in these last days spoken u
nt
o us by his Son,


2:
3
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed u
nt
o us by them that heard him;

4
God also bearing them witness, b
ot
h with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?


The teaching of Jesus & his Apostles overrides the writings of Moses & the prophets. OT prophecy was fulfilled in & by Jesus. All the many chapters detailing the OC rituals, the tabernacle & sacrifices, the priesthood, monarchy & everything else OC was completed, perfected, fulfilled, etc, by Jesus.

Jesus is the rebuilt tabernacle of David. Christ himself is the NC temple, built with living stones. There can NEVER be a rebuilt temple of God where acceptable animal sacrifices for sin can again be offered by a human priesthood.

The point is this: why would God have Ezekiel write eight chapters of painstaking detail, including exact measurements, if it was all to be fulfilled spiritually in the body of Christ? Why were they told to "measure the pattern" and "keep the whole form thereof" if they weren't actually going to build anything? Why all the explanation of what a cubit is? Why the exact measurement of the wall, sanctuary, and court if in the end it doesn't make any difference because no one is going to actually build anything?

Why indeed? Ezekiel was prophesying from captivity, with the temple in ruins, & its treasures removed. His prophecy is to encourage the faithful who are ina state of abject desolation. They see themselves as dry bones. (37)


11
Then he said u
nt
o me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12
Therefore prophesy and say u
nt
o them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you i
nt
o the land of Israel.

13
And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14
And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.


24
And David my serva
nt
shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgme
nt
s, and
ob
serve my statutes, and do them.


27
My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.


Rev. 21:
3
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


The LORD sees them according to his eternal purposes in Christ. They will return to the land, they will rebuild the temple, and Messiah will come, all the promises will be fulfilled in him. Ezekiel's temple, like the tabernacle is a picture of the heavenly temple, & perfect worship in Christ, in Spirit & in Truth. There will NEVER be an acceptable man-made temple.

Paul wrote to the Galatians who were returning to Judaism:

2:18 For if I
build
again
the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.


As far as it being any historical temple: it's not. This temple has the glory of God, no temple since Solomon has had that. It also has a river flowing under it, or through it somehow; that's a first. From what I've read the dimensions don't match any other temple either.

There I do agree. But that river is the Holy Spirit flowing freely from the throne of God & the Lamb.


Zec. 14:
8
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem;


John 4:
14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up i
nt
o everlasting life.


Rev. 22:
1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.


Your idea of the state of affairs after Jesus returns is a mockery of the glorious hope we have in Christ.


2 Peter 3:
11
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12
Looking for and hasting u
nt
o the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the eleme
nt
s shall melt with ferve
nt
heat?

13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be dilige
nt
that ye may be found of him in peace, without sp
ot
, and blameless.

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When reading the description of the temple described in Ezekiel 41-47, this temple is vastly different than previous standing temples. Plus, there are sacrifices offered...

Ezekiel 43:18-27
18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.
24 And thou shalt offer them before the LORD, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
26 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.
27 And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord GOD.

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When reading the description of the temple described in Ezekiel 41-47, this temple is vastly different than previous standing temples. Plus, there are sacrifices offered...

Ezekiel 43:18-27
18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.....
....

That is exactly the problem - any future blood sacrifices would be a gross affront to our Saviour & his FINISHED work.

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That is exactly the problem - any future blood sacrifices would be a gross affront to our Saviour & his FINISHED work.



Maybe, maybe not. I think Calvinism is a gross affront to Jesus Christ, but you have no problem with it. Either way, you bsically sidestepped the first question in post #6 and completely ignored post #32.

I'm glad you agree that the Ezekiel's temple isn't historical.

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Steve,

Isn't the judgment described in Revelation 20:11-15 the Great White Throne Judgment? Only the unsaved are resurrected to this judgment. As far as I know, this is not a "general" judgment. I don't believe this is a judgment to which anyone would be "looking forward"...because this is a judgment of damnation. And I agree, the Tribulation period precedes this judgment. The 1,000 year reign of Christ also precedes this judgment.


Linda
Yes, I agree with you that Revelation 20 is the "Great White Throne Judgment" and I also agree that there will be a resurrection of Israel at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. I don't know if Martha understood that distinction in John 11. I know from the Gospel accounts that the Jews believed in a general resurrection and judgment, but it seems as if their understanding of it put those two events together.
Also, the Great White Throne Judgment would include all those who are born during the Kingdom Age, so there will be SOME saved people there, but the vast majority of those at this judgment are the lost from Genesis 4 up to the end of the Kingdom Age.

In Christ,

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I am seeking to establish principles of interpretation of prophecy - reasons for believing as we do.
Replies in blue, in loc.

My "position" is with an open Bible, word studies using Strong - not taking his definitions as definitive, but using the occurences & usage as a guide. If Scripture has to be interpreted, rather than read in a literal sense & understood, we need sound principles for understanding, as Peter wrote:


Why can't we read it in a literal sense and understand it that way?

Peter immediately directs us to a Christ centred interpretation, rather than an Israel centred interpretation, underlined in the next chapter when he quotes Exodus 19 & Hosea:

Jesus Christ is a JEW - the Lion of the tribe of JUDAH, and KING over Israel, sitting on DAVID's Throne in JERUSALEM. We simply cannot overlook the direct references to Israel just because it is an inconvenience.

There are plenty of OT Scriptures prophesying a glorious & eternal future for Israel, which the NT writers apply to all the redeemed, not reserved for national Israel, e.g. Romans & Galatians.

There are a lot of things that I APPLY to my congregation that are not necessarily DOCTRINALLY pointed at them, particularly when I preach or teach from the OT. The NT writers quoted extensively from the OT, as we would expect them to. This does not deny what we believe from a dispensational point of view.



Daniel certainly records the Medes taking the kingdom of Babylon. That is the prophecy in Isa. 13. That is stated by the LORD, & is the simple, literal meaning of the prophecy. Daniel also prophesies a succession of kingdoms. He further prophesies in response to Nebuchadnezzar's dream, his great humbling & reinstatement. That will take us on to Isa. 14. The "extravagant" language of prophecy is not (necessarily) to be understood literally, but to be understood in context. A possible significance of the heavenly signs will be seen in Joshua's victory when the sun stood still. Or that while God looked on Neb. as head of gold he was to an extent ruling in God-given light, but that light would be extinguished (but I don't have to provide a literal interpretation):


37
Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

38
And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given i
nt
o thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.


The point is, of, course, that the interpertation of Is. 13 is stated. Why look for an interpretation nearly 3,000 years away which would be meaningless to Isaiah & his hearers. Sure Assyria was the immediate threat, but that did not stop other specific references to Babylon. After all, Assyria would be driven back, while Babylon would overwhelm Judah & destroy the temple - a much greater threat. Isaiah later names Cyrus as the man ordering their return from Babylon.

These are only partial fulfillments. Reaching all the way back to Joshua as part of that fulfillment is a huge stretch, and simply doesn't fit the context, which is what you are demanding from us. The verses were not COMPLETELY AND ENTIRELY fulfilled with the Median destruction of Babylon, and you did not answer the issue raised concerning Lucifer in the passage.
The fact that Lucifer is mentioned should alert us to the idea that there is something else being pointed to other than Nebuchadnezzar.


We don't know if Isaiah's prophecies are in chronological order. He prophesied through the reign of Hezekiah who had dealings with the rising power of Babylon. (39) His prophecies make sense in their immediate time context, though many prophecies look on to the Messiah & the eternal kingdom. I don't know how you can claim that prophecies for the next 50-100 years referring to warring nations"were meaningless to the common man in Israel" & yet make sense 2,500 - 3,000 years hence.

The point is that there should have been some OBVIOUS clues to a future fulfillment beyond what they knew from a physical perspective....(i.e. Lucifer...i.e. the Virgin Birth of Isa. 7:14...etc)


Are there any clear references in the OT to Babylon that "CLEARLY pointing to something/somebody else?" Let us assume initially that Isa. 14 is referring to the literal king of Babylon - and compare with his dream in Dan. 4:


10
Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.

11
The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached u
nt
o heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

16
Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given u
nt
o him; and let seven times pass over him.


Neb. was humbled - but graciously spared - but soon Belshazzar was humbled & destroyed, & Babylon was never again a power. Babylon's great wickedness & wars against Israel remained legendary, so the NT writers & we can see in Babylon the war of Satan a\against the people of God. It is true that the powers that be are ordained by God. Neb. acknowledged that, but their hearts are satanic, & once they have ruled, they perish as recorded in Isa. 14. We can see Satan destroyed in Isa. 14 - the great power against Israel brought down to the grave.

The problem with putting such prophecy into a distant future "dispensation" is that it is not useful to its immediate hearers, nor people living in the time of Christ, nor even to us. How can we read & profit, unless of course we write best-seller futuristic fiction like Tim & Jerry?

No. The futuristic interpretation robs Scripture of its meaning, & Christians of its real blessings.

Finally, compare Isa. 13 with Psal 137.




16
Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.


8
O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

9
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.


Brother, this is the ALLEGORICAL method. Overlooking the SPECIFIC wording of the passage, and trying to force generalities into a specific that don't fit. This is why I simply cannot accept the Covenant Theologian's position. It denies a LITERAL interpretation of any passage, and seeks to impose partial fulfillments as complete fulfillments.....it doesn't work!
The view you describe above does not account for LUCIFER in Isaiah 14.

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