Interpetation of prophecy

[Brother Rick]

I appreciate that you are backing up my point that Old Testament prophecy jumps around, thank you.

[Invicta]

It doesn't jump around. The whole prophecy was to be fulfilled by Christ. The first part was fulfilled in Luke 4, the second part was in Luke 21. Fulfilled as a result of the death of Christ.

[Steve Schwenke]

Where do YOU get the audacity to reject the plain teaching of Scripture?

Just show me where the Bible CLEARLY and PLAINLY identifies "Rome" as an "eagle."
Daniel 8 CLEARLY identified the goat and the ram. I would be looking for a passage similar to that, or a string of passages similar to what I gave on "stars" that clearly interpret themselves. With the "stars" verses, I didn't have to "read anything into" the verses - they spoke for themselves, and then (low and behold!) the Bible actually defined the term FOR US, without me having to "interpret" any symbol.
So, if you can show me where the Bible CLEARLY defines "Rome" as an "eagle" I might be willing to listen.

But you have not done that as yet. You made "quantum leaps" in your "connections," even using a verse from a list of unclean animals, which nothing to do with anything in the topic we were discussing. You overlook the obvious, and then confuse the simple.

[Steve Schwenke]

It doesn't jump around. The whole prophecy was to be fulfilled by Christ. The first part was fulfilled in Luke 4, the second part was in Luke 21. Fulfilled as a result of the death of Christ.

Ok, let's assume you are correct. There is still a gap in the timeline - which is Rick's point. It is not consecutive.

[Invicta]

Ok, let's assume you are correct. There is still a gap in the timeline - which is Rick's point. It is not consecutive.

I cannot see your point here. The prophecy was for Christ to declare. He did, that's all.

[LindaR]

Ok, let's assume you are correct. There is still a gap in the timeline - which is Rick's point. It is not consecutive.

Bro. Steve...

Would you say the reason for the "gap" in the timeline of prophecy in the Old Testament is because there is no prophecy of the Church? And also, there are many verses which have a double fulfillment (the first advent prophesied and fulfilled literally and in the same verse an unfulfilled future prophecy of the Second Advent).

[Steve Schwenke]

Bro. Steve...

Would you say the reason for the "gap" in the timeline of prophecy in the Old Testament is because there is no prophecy of the Church? And also, there are many verses which have a double fulfillment (the first advent prophesied and fulfilled literally and in the same verse an unfulfilled future prophecy of the Second Advent).

Yes, that is how I see it.

[Invicta]

Covenanter says that Habakkuk 3 was fulfilled in Joshua's day. I say where?
He references this:
Habakkuk 3:11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.

And then deduces that the entire chapter of Hab. 3 has been fulfilled.
Then you give these verses as further proof.
BUT
you have both overlooked these verses:
Habakkuk 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

When did this happen in the book of Joshua? Notice, it does NOT say that He came TO Teman or Mount Paran, but FROM.

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

When did THAT happen in Joshua???

Habakkuk 3:12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.

When did GOD HIMSELF march through the land in the Book of Joshua? Do you have a reference for that?

Habakkuk 3:15 Thou didst walk through the sea with thine horses, through the heap of great waters.

When did this happen? At the Red Sea? But then he said it was JOSHUA, not MOSES. And it doesn't say RIVER (as in the crossing of the JOrdan River), but SEA. And again, the "THOU" is a reference to the LORD - not Joshua!!!

You see, it just doesn't fit.

In the meantime, we have completed skipped over Daniel 8, and the stars.
This is liking trying to talk to Mormons or JW's - as soon as you pin them down on one point, they jump to a different point, and then you pin them down on that and they leap to another point, and around and around in circles they go, never landing anywhere, and making the biggest mess you ever saw out of the Bible.

If Habakkuk 3 is a reference to JOSHUA, then how come Joshua is never mentioned in the passage???

I cannot remember why I posted those verses. Probably because you said the Israelites were conqurers. I really do not know what covenant theology is. I had never heard of it till I came on here. I do not agree with Covenanter on a lot of things, He is Preterist. I am not. He is a-mil, I am not.

[Brother Rick]

I cannot remember why I posted those verses. Probably because you said the Israelites were conqurers. I really do not know what covenant theology is. I had never heard of it till I came on here. I do not agree with Covenanter on a lot of things, He is Preterist. I am not. He is a-mil, I am not.

That's what confused me about what you say, Invicta. What do you believe about the 1,000 years? Are we in them now or are they coming? I'm kinda tired of debating the subject, I just want to know what you believe.

[John81]

That's what confused me about what you say, Invicta. What do you believe about the 1,000 years? Are we in them now or are they coming? I'm kinda tired of debating the subject, I just want to know what you believe.

Myself, I can't see how, from what Scripture says, we could be in the thousand years now. From the plain reading of Scripture regarding the thousand years reign of Christ, it seems it must be future.

[Invicta]

Myself, I can't see how, from what Scripture says, we could be in the thousand years now. From the plain reading of Scripture regarding the thousand years reign of Christ, it seems it must be future.

That's what confused me about what you say, Invicta. What do you believe about the 1,000 years? Are we in them now or are they coming? I'm kinda tired of debating the subject, I just want to know what you believe.

No I do not believe we are in the 1,000 years. I believe they are coming, but I am willing to listen to any scriptural arguments to prove me wrong.

[Covenanter]

Myself, I can't see how, from what Scripture says, we could be in the thousand years now. From the plain reading of Scripture regarding the thousand years reign of Christ, it seems it must be future.

The trouble with premil belief is that the millennium occurs after Jesus returns, but there is no teaching in Scripture of a future age & future conflicts, only resurrection & final judgment. The future mil is read into Scripture, not explicitly taught. Rev. 20 is to be understood by Scripture, as is the rule for all Scripture.

As commonly taught, the mil is populated by resurrected saints & mortal survivors from a 7-year trib – after the supposed rapture. The mortal Jews receive there the promises made to Abraham. The mortals have children born with a sinful nature & need to be converted, so there is an increasing population of unbelievers. Jesus reigns in person from Jerusalem over saints & sinners, the latter being subdued by his rod of iron. The Jews rebuild the temple to Ezekiel's pattern & offer sacrifices for sin. That peaceful reign, with even the once fierce animals now docile, is over an earth eventually populated by so many unregenerate that when Satan is released, the whole earth rises in rebellion with him against Christ & his saints now beleaguered in Jerusalem. Only the intervention of fire from heaven saves them. The great white throne judgment follows. The earth, the eternal heritage for Abraham & his seeds, flees away. The glorious eternal promises of God are reduced to 1,000 years. Only after that judgment do we see the NH&NE populated only by believers.

That scenario is in conflict with the OT prophecies of a glorious eternal kingdom, & with Jesus' kingdom prophecies in Mat. 13 – see the wheat & tares. Peter (2P3) has no place for a millennium other than the present age, which ends with fiery destruction & a righteous NH&NE.

Paul in 2 Thes. 1 sees the vindication of the saints & fiery vengeance on the wicked when Jesus comes again in glory. 1 Thes. 4 & 5 do not teach a rapture of the saints separated in time from the judgment of the wicked. Paul teaches resurrection/(rapture) & judgment.

What does Rev. 20 teach?
1-3 Satan is bound that he should deceive the nations no more. Should we take this as absolute? We cannot, because the millennial earth is increasingly populated with sinners waiting for his release, so they can rebel against Lord Jesus. Rather it conforms to the words of Jesus:

Mat. 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come u

nt

o you. 29 Or else how can one e

nt

er i

nt

o a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Jesus is prophesying the great commission – the Gospel to the nations, & Rev. 20 is echoing the great commission. Satan may be bound, & unable to hold on to his captives, but his evil influence is manifest in the Gospel age. We see that in the opposition to the Gospel, & in Eph. 6. Rev. 17 portrays Satan bound yet directing with forces of evil.

8

The beast that thou sawest was, and is n

ot

; and shall ascend out of the b

ot

tomless pit, and go i

nt

o perdition:

and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were n

ot

written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is n

ot

, and yet is.

V. 4 shows the souls of martyrs & dead believers in heaven, not on earth.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgme

nt

was given u

nt

o them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had n

ot

worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Saints down the ages are adding to that glorious number. They received their first, spiritual resurrection according to Jesus when they believed. (John 5:)

24 Verily, verily, I say u

nt

o you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that se

nt

me, hath everlasting life, and shall n

ot

come i

nt

o condemnation; but is passed from death u

nt

o life. 25 Verily, verily, I say u

nt

o you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

That is contrasted with the resurrection at the last day:

28 Marvel n

ot

at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, u

nt

o the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, u

nt

o the resurrection of damnation.

5 But the rest of the dead lived n

ot

again u

nt

il the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

At the end of millennial Gospel age Satan is released, & the people of the godless nations, that have resisted the Gospel, flock to his banner to fight believers wherever they are. We worship our Father in spirit & truth & have no specific earthly city. Our city is heavenly Jerusalem. (Gal. 4.) That final persecution-battle is ended by fire from heaven. The Gog-Magog battle is never fought.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they we

nt

up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the sai

nt

s about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Paul tells the same prophecy:

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know n

ot

God, and that

ob

ey n

ot

the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his sai

nt

s, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The last judgment follows, & the NH&NE.

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11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and an

ot

her book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[Steve Schwenke]

Ian, the problem with position is the same in all passages. You take a general overview, and completely ignore the specific wording of the passage.

Re 20:1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Re 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

So here we see that you were INCORRECT in your assessment of our position, because you simply failed to read and believe the passage. It does not say that Satan will NEVER deceive the nations anymore. It says that while he is bound during that 1,000 year time period he will not deceive them. However, at the end of that 1,000 year time period, Satan is loosed for one final assault on the Lord, and he is defeated.

So where do we derive our belief? Well, simple. Directly from the passage!

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

HUH! It specifically states SIX TIMES in the passage that there would be a 1,000 year period of time. It gives the order of events carefully and specifically. Our only option is to believe it as it stands, and interpret the rest of the OT Scriptural promises in light of this passage.

IN Christ

[John81]

Nothing to add at this time, but I did want to say that I appreciate the exchange of viewpoints here and am studying them out as the thread proceeds.

[anime4christ]

I'll open a new thread on the millennium when I get to my computer.