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2Tim215

The Throne of Grace?

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Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. KJV

Eph 3:12 in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him. NASB

Eph 3:12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. NIV

I would like to point out something I have always believed wrongly - that our confidence and boldness in approaching the throne of grace depends on OUR faith in Christ. Having never really read the verse properly I have always just taken it as how it was taught, even when reading the KJV. Yet you can clearly see in the KJV that this does not depend on our faith, but by the faith OF HIM - the "him" being Jesus Christ.
Again in (Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus) we see that it depends on the blood of Jesus and not our faith.

And in the below verses we again see that it is because of Jesus and His faith and what He did that we have this great privilege to approach the Throne of Grace and make our petitions before God.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

What an amazing truth that can set our prayers free and give them wings to know that it is not our feeble faith with all its fears and doubts that allows us the freedom to approach God with our appeals and requests, but rather IT"S ALL ABOUT CHRIST AND WHAT HE DID!!! Not us.

Correct me if my understanding of this is wrong.

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I think your first understanding of the passage was the correct one. "the faith of him" in this passage is not speaking of the faith of Christ in the narrow individual sense as in a faith that only Christ himself has, rather it is being used in the broad sense. we have access through living the "Christian faith" if you will. Numerous other scriptures bear this out. Hebrews 11:6, James 1:6-7 etc. The "faith of him" is a little different from just "faith in him" in my opinion. In order to be saved a person must have had "faith in Christ". That doesn't always mean Christians are living in the "faith of him" though as it is clear Christians do not always have access. Sin can block access.

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Lu 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

of course, if you have no faith, there there is no use praying. And prayers are not answered because of lack of fait God or Jesus, only because our lack of faith.

Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Again, it’s the faith of the one praying, not God or Jesus' faith.

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To take a quote out of EM Bounds on prayer:

"IN any study of the principles, and procedure of prayer, of its activities and enterprises, first place, must, of necessity, be given to faith. It is the initial quality in the heart of any man who essays to talk to the Unseen. He must, out of sheer helplessness, stretch forth hands of faith. He must believe, where he cannot prove. In the ultimate issue, prayer is simply faith, claiming its natural yet marvelous prerogatives-faith taking possession of its illimitable inheritance. True godliness is just as true, steady, and persevering in the realm of faith as it is in the province of prayer. Moreover: when faith ceases to pray, it ceases to live."

So of course our faith is important in prayer for without faith we can not please God.
My question wasn't about prayer though, it was about approaching God. Is it through our strength, ability and faith that we are able to approach Him, or is it because of Christ and His finished work on the cross that we are able to approach Him with boldness and confidence?
Also, the point I was trying to convey was how easily a lot of us who have backgrounds in other bible versions and the doctrine taught by churches and pastors that use those versions can miss a biblical truth because we are conditioned into believing that that is what the verse means so must therefore diligently study the Word and put aside our previous understanding of it.

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I look at it this way. He is our advocate and like any court we can not just approach the judge when ever we feel like it. We must go through our advocate (or lawyer), so it is through our advocate Jesus Christ that we are able to approach the Throne of Grace and freely speak to God. Yet in this world even with a advocate we can not speak to the judge unless he speaks to us first, but because of Christ we can speak to God all the time.

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I don't know about you, or others, but as from me, I have never used those other versions during my 65 years.


Unfortunately the whole KJV 1611 thing and IFB churches are not very well known in countries outside the USA, especially here in SA. It was only in my 20's that the Lord led my wife and I to a IFB church and they were "hidden" Calvinists. Only later were we led to a bible believing IFB church that gave us a good foundation on sound doctrine and bible study principles. I remember fighting the KJV thing for a while until the Lord convicted me.

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I find it hard to believe that God would lead someone to a Church whose strongest doctrines teach contrary to God's Holy Word.

I also find it puzzling why one would leave a Church God led him to? Since God's Word tells us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, it appears that to leave a Church that God has led one to is an act of rebellion against God's will and against God Himself.

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I find it hard to believe that God would lead someone to a Church whose strongest doctrines teach contrary to God's Holy Word.

I also find it puzzling why one would leave a Church God led him to? Since God's Word tells us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, it appears that to leave a Church that God has led one to is an act of rebellion against God's will and against God Himself.


Once more you have something critical to say about something you know nothing about, making your assumptions concerning people you know nothing about.
  1. The churches doctrine was not based on Calvinism, but due to subversive people in the church, false charges were made against the pastor and he was removed and was forced to retire and return to the USA. We had to leave the church as we were not going to be party to their doings.
  2. I was a contractor in the building industry - you go where the work is - not everyone is as "blessed" as you seem to profess.

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And yet God led you there.

So, did the God lead you to that Church? or did your own desires? Why would God lead to a Church and then give you work in a place that required you to leave that Church?

Makes no sense.

And yes, I am critical. Anytime one says God led them to a Church and they leave it I am very critical.

And you would be just as critical if I told you God led me to a Church and I didn't like what was going on there and left. Any Christian should question whether it was God's leading or one' sown preference that was doing the leading.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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2Tim215, It seems your offended whatever someone answers to you. Perhaps you should not take things so personal, & get heated up. Because someone disagrees, is no reason to get critical & strike back.

I am not here to try and punch someone out, neither is no one else, & most nearly all of us when we give answers to a post, we are actually trying to help, not knock you out. And I understand, there will be times we may not like the answer, yet we do not have to strike back at them as if they're our enemy and we must punch them out in order to prove a point.

With that said, I say this to Standing Firm in Christ, none of us are perfect, & we can make all kinds of mistakes, step into all kinds of sins, even leaving a church that we should not, even turning our back on God in rebellion.

Even Paul told us about his struggles.

Ro 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Ro 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Ro 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

And if Paul had such struggles, you, 2Tim216, myself, & everyone else will.

So if you read that, maybe next time someone expresses such, a little grace would help much. Your post seem to say, if your saved, you will be perfect, & you will do no sin. As long as we tote this flesh, sin will dwell in us, as said above in Romans 7:19,20.

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And yet God led you there.

So, did the God lead you to that Church? or did your own desires? Why would God lead to a Church and then give you work in a place that required you to leave that Church?

Makes no sense.

And yes, I am critical. Anytime one says God led them to a Church and they leave it I am very critical.

And you would be just as critical if I told you God led me to a Church and I didn't like what was going on there and left. Any Christian should question whether it was God's leading or one' sown preference that was doing the leading.


Again you make assumptions. We were in the church for three years before MAN, NOT GOD, changed things. So yes God did lead us. Both my wife and I were tired of the false doctrines taught in the charismatic churches and had never even heard of KJV IFB churches. I was searching for the truth and GOD LED us to this church, so who are you to judge God's ways? And no, I would not be critical of someone leaving for work - I have yet to find a church that will pay a salary to an unemployed member of the church who has lost there job and must find work anywhere they can. Leaving for more money is different story.


2Tim215, It seems your offended whatever someone answers to you. Perhaps you should not take things so personal, & get heated up. Because someone disagrees, is no reason to get critical & strike back.


That is not true, am just tired of SFIC's comments and false doctrine that he ALWAYS seems to direct to me personally. So my comments towards him reflect the attitude he directs towards me. He is nothing in my life that I should be offended, yet I am not one to sit back and accept bully's.

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Oh, please knock it off! 2Tim posted about being led to a church that, a few years down the road, was harmed by MAN. God does lead people to places that eventually do go bad, you know. God led my hubby and I to a church where the pastor eventually tried to kill him. Does the original leading of God mean we should've stayed? Of course not. That's not even common sense, let alone Biblical. Man is sinful and man can go awry - even in a good church. And that good church can become controlled by the wrong group of folks. It is not only possible, it has happened time and time again.

God led my parents to a church many years ago. And, over time, things went bad. Because the preacher gave in to the flesh. And so they left. Why? Because the preacher would not admit his sin. And so God led them elsewhere. He does do that, you know.

Please stop being so ready to pounce on every little thing someone says. And that's a moderator order, thank you very much. Else this thread closes.

:11backtotopic:

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Luanne,

If you can't see that I am being 'pounced on' by 2Tim215, maybe this board is not for me.

I have already spoken with Bro Matt about issues with 2Tim215 where he is belittling me on other boards by carrying my posts from this board over to them.

2Tim continues to 'pounce' on me practically every time I post anymore. When confronted with wrong, he puffs up and attacks.
And then he bears false witness against me and when I say something, I am in the wrong? Wow!
Well, if he is a Christian he should welcome rebuke when he is wrong. Obviously, he doesn't welcome constructive criticism.

If I was wrong in any way, I am sorry. But take the blinders off and address the fact that 2Tim is also clearly wrong.


I will not post again until God tells me to.

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I don't have blinders on, Standing. You did pounce on him unnecessarily in this thread. If he's posted against you on other boards, I'm sorry - but that shouldn't carry over to here. I have addressed 2Tim when he's been wrong (granted, I've not caught everything, but I do try).

FWIW - 2Tim, if you have problems with Standing Firm on other boards, don't bring them here, okay?

Debate and discussion is not wrong, but when it becomes personal and attacks begin, it becomes wrong. Let's not do that here on OB.

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LuAnne, I have on one occasion copied a post over to the KJV 1611 forum for another opinion, If that was wrong then I apologize. I do not have a problem with SFIC personally, only when he denounces me do I reply. Maybe my replies are antagonistic at times, but that would reflect his antagonism towards me. My strategy is to not reply to any of his posts anymore as you can see from this thread. If at any time I overstep in any way then please smack me upside the head. Apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Tim

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2Tim, I'll be honest with you: I do think it was unethical to copy a post from here to another board, without the poster's permission, simply for another opinion. If you truly just wanted another opinion, you could have posted a thread that said what do you think of this idea biblically? Or something like that. To copy a post from one board to another, when you know it will elicit a strong reaction, isn't ethical, as I said, nor is it kind. And, remember, we are commanded to "be ye kind, one to another..."

That said, I do believe there is ought between the two of you. And it needs to be settled privately. And I think you need to make the first move, 2Tim. Not to reiterate your argument, but to bury the hatchet, as it were. That would be the biblical way to handle it.

I'm going to lock this thread. And I'm going to hope, 2Tim, that you heed my advice.

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