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Will

Perhaps I'm more out of touch with the world than I thought

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As far as the passage about touching a woman....that clearly refers to a sexual touch. That is the entire context of the passage.

I hug and kiss women that are not my wife all the time. Of course, the hug and kiss is different. We are very good friends with a couple, and I hug and kiss the women when I greet her, and her husband hugs and kisses my wife. This is a genuine affection and friendship towards each other, and there is nothing sexual about it. It is just good friends showing love and affection towards each other.

A girlfriend/boyfriend kiss is undoubtedly different than a brother/sister kiss, but there are those gf/bf kisses that are goodnight type kisses that show affection and love, but are not sexual in natre, and those gf/bf kisses that are done in a way that prepares their bodies for sex (ie/while groping and making out in the back of a car).

All kisses between husband and wife or gf/bf are not sexual in nature. Sure sexual attraction is there, but there are the affectionate kisses, the make up after an argument kisses, the goodnight kisses, and the sexual kisses.

I do want to be clear though....there is absolutely nothing wrong with people making a committment to themselves before God not to kiss if that is what they feel is the right thing to do. I just do not think one can say that it is clearly biblical that kissing before marriage is wrong in all circumstances. The better thing to do is give the biblical principal that is clear....no sex outside of marriage, and then teach principals of wisdom to help people follow that.....ie. set limits for yourself to avoid situations where temptation may be strong....what those limits are may be different for different people, but let them choose the limits after prayerfully considering them.

The Biblical principal is not to have sex outside of marriage. Practically, one is wise to avoid situations where they are preparing their bodies for sex.....ie making out in the bedroom or car. Showing affection in a non-sexual way is good and healthy.

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Dwayner honestly I don't know that I would want my husband giving church ladies a kiss goodnight.....or holding their hand for any reason whatsoever. I don't see any Biblical principle that supports that, other than "greet one another with a holy kiss" which translates into a handshake in American culture.

I would think that anything that is NOT ok for me as a married woman to do with the men in church would NOT be ok for me to do if I were single, with my boyfriend.

Its the same thing...to refrain from certain activity in a single person avoids fornication....to refrain from it in a married perseon avoids adultery.

I would be sure that very few here would say "Yes its ok if my wife kisses Deacon so and so on the mouth good night" but the same people would say its okay for a dating couple to do so.

Where's Biblical principles here?

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Dwayner honestly I don't know that I would want my husband giving church ladies a kiss goodnight.....or holding their hand for any reason whatsoever. I don't see any Biblical principle that supports that, other than "greet one another with a holy kiss" which translates into a handshake in American culture.

I would think that anything that is NOT ok for me as a married woman to do with the men in church would NOT be ok for me to do if I were single, with my boyfriend.

Its the same thing...to refrain from certain activity in a single person avoids fornication....to refrain from it in a married perseon avoids adultery.

I would be sure that very few here would say "Yes its ok if my wife kisses Deacon so and so on the mouth good night" but the same people would say its okay for a dating couple to do so.

Where's Biblical principles here?



That would be all messed up if my hubby gave my very own sister a peck kiss goodnight on the lip or cheek.

Although, My sister does give my hubby a hug goodbye (a family hug). But she certainly would not hold his hands or kiss him!!

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Dwayner honestly I don't know that I would want my husband giving church ladies a kiss goodnight.....or holding their hand for any reason whatsoever. I don't see any Biblical principle that supports that, other than "greet one another with a holy kiss" which translates into a handshake in American culture.

I would think that anything that is NOT ok for me as a married woman to do with the men in church would NOT be ok for me to do if I were single, with my boyfriend.

Its the same thing...to refrain from certain activity in a single person avoids fornication....to refrain from it in a married perseon avoids adultery.

I would be sure that very few here would say "Yes its ok if my wife kisses Deacon so and so on the mouth good night" but the same people would say its okay for a dating couple to do so.

Where's Biblical principles here?

Your church never joins hands in prayer? If so, then by pure mathmatics, someone is going to be holding the hand of a person of the opposite sex during prayer. Is that wrong?

Admittedly, in our culture we are more apt to hug as a greeting then kiss on the cheek, but my grandmom for instance if old school. She greets everyone with a lip kiss. That is how the dutch greet, and she still has that as her greeting. If your husband met my 96yo grandmom, he would lip kiss her (He would have no choice, she grabs your face... its rather annoying). I highly doubt that kissing is a typical greeting among people these days, but hugs certainly are. You said that "a holy kiss" means a handshake in America. Where did you get that from. Who says. Its totally cultural, and within most of our christian culture a hug is a completely benign greeting (and therefore an acceptable usage of the "holy kiss").

Your asking for Biblical principles that are right in front of you (IMO of course).

Principle one - Sexual touching is off limits outside of marriage (thanks to many passages, but I Cor 7 will do).
Principle two - Affectionate greetings that show love for one another are expected (actually encouraged) in church ("holy kiss")

Now I am not trying to defend Danny's position (I don't fully understand it, so I don't want to support it), or even the others. My main point of discussion was to say that I Cor 7 does NOT mean "touch" like touch his robe. Its obvious sexual touch.

I also follow your logic between what you do to another person's husband and what you do to a potential spouse should be the same. Therefore, if its ok to Kiss your BF, if ok to kiss anyone. I get that logic, but I disagree with it. That is a completely different matter all together. In other words, the two biblical principles listed above have nothing to do with what we are talking about here. SoS talks about not awakening love (again, that is rather sexual in nature). There are plenty of warnings about sexuality, but not about how to show affection.

You would have to show some biblical reason to avoid showing affection to someone to hold that kissing before marriage is a bad thing. Its completely normal for a person to show affection according to the measure of how much of a bond they have with that person. I kiss my wife. I huge a friend. I shake hands with an aquantance. Its measured culturally. In our culture Grandmom Gerda's lip kisses are just gross, but just because she has a different cultural context, that does not make them wrong. There can certainly be holy affection between two people. That affection can include a kiss goodnight. In fact, biblically, the only affection that is off limits is sexual in nature. Now I don't recommend that for young people, because of the old slippery slope, but certainly two people can kiss goodnight without taking their clothes off (physically or mentally).

The reason the measure of bond changes after marriage is the strength of that marriage bond. Once you give the ultimate measure of affection to your spouse, the bond with others diminishes. Culturally speaking, the bond I have with my gf (before marriage) is much stronger then the one I have with my friend's wives (after marriage). That is just common sense. My wife and I have very close friends who we feel fortunate enough to be close to. I hug him and her all the time. There is a stronger bond of affection (holy affection) between the four of us then with some of our other friends. Naturally, there is more holy affection shown.

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I would also add that just because Satan uses that (holy affection) to try to tempt to sin (unholy affection) does not mean that we should avoid showing love and affection to one another all together. There are some pretty simple boundaries that you can put in place to avoid transitioning to unholy affection. But to reject all affection with each other is a tea-totaller response that stops us from living in true community with one another. I think both are wrong.

Deafnva,

In my family a hug and a kiss on the cheek are completely normal. I kiss my mom, sister and sister in law on the cheek. (Though I hardly ever see my brother and sil which is a bummer.) Its really a cultural thing.

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Your church never joins hands in prayer? If so, then by pure mathmatics, someone is going to be holding the hand of a person of the opposite sex during prayer. Is that wrong?

Admittedly, in our culture we are more apt to hug as a greeting then kiss on the cheek, but my grandmom for instance if old school. She greets everyone with a lip kiss. That is how the dutch greet, and she still has that as her greeting. If your husband met my 96yo grandmom, he would lip kiss her (He would have no choice, she grabs your face... its rather annoying). I highly doubt that kissing is a typical greeting among people these days, but hugs certainly are. You said that "a holy kiss" means a handshake in America. Where did you get that from. Who says. Its totally cultural, and within most of our christian culture a hug is a completely benign greeting (and therefore an acceptable usage of the "holy kiss").

Your asking for Biblical principles that are right in front of you (IMO of course).

Principle one - Sexual touching is off limits outside of marriage (thanks to many passages, but I Cor 7 will do).
Principle two - Affectionate greetings that show love for one another are expected (actually encouraged) in church ("holy kiss")

Now I am not trying to defend Danny's position (I don't fully understand it, so I don't want to support it), or even the others. My main point of discussion was to say that I Cor 7 does NOT mean "touch" like touch his robe. Its obvious sexual touch.

I also follow your logic between what you do to another person's husband and what you do to a potential spouse should be the same. Therefore, if its ok to Kiss your BF, if ok to kiss anyone. I get that logic, but I disagree with it. That is a completely different matter all together. In other words, the two biblical principles listed above have nothing to do with what we are talking about here. SoS talks about not awakening love (again, that is rather sexual in nature). There are plenty of warnings about sexuality, but not about how to show affection.

You would have to show some biblical reason to avoid showing affection to someone to hold that kissing before marriage is a bad thing. Its completely normal for a person to show affection according to the measure of how much of a bond they have with that person. I kiss my wife. I huge a friend. I shake hands with an aquantance. Its measured culturally. In our culture Grandmom Gerda's lip kisses are just gross, but just because she has a different cultural context, that does not make them wrong. There can certainly be holy affection between two people. That affection can include a kiss goodnight. In fact, biblically, the only affection that is off limits is sexual in nature. Now I don't recommend that for young people, because of the old slippery slope, but certainly two people can kiss goodnight without taking their clothes off (physically or mentally).

The reason the measure of bond changes after marriage is the strength of that marriage bond. Once you give the ultimate measure of affection to your spouse, the bond with others diminishes. Culturally speaking, the bond I have with my gf (before marriage) is much stronger then the one I have with my friend's wives (after marriage). That is just common sense. My wife and I have very close friends who we feel fortunate enough to be close to. I hug him and her all the time. There is a stronger bond of affection (holy affection) between the four of us then with some of our other friends. Naturally, there is more holy affection shown.


That is my point exactely, though put much more eloquently.

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My hubby and I did hold hands before marriage, but it was a love/affection type hand-holding. It wasn't neutral at all. There were times I held hands with other people in a circle along with my hubby (before marriage). Holding his hand felt different than the person who were holding my other hand. There is a love attraction going on between me and my hubby.

a boy and a girl should decide for themselves that if they should wait til marriage to kiss.. but for now, I will tell them it is better if they did wait.

i know some family do kiss each other, but not in my family. My sister would freak out anyway if he did. Especially if he gave her the type of smooch that he gives me. (offtopic: speaking of kissing, I was not happy with my hubby's aunt's husband because he kept kissing our son right on the lips. It was way too weird and I avoided being near him when I say good bye)

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Dwayner, I see what you are saying....I can agree with most of it, I think. Not quite all. I mean, we do not hold hands in our church, stuff like that. My husband is very particular about touching the opposite sex, except regular handshakes.

Two comments here....

In our sexually charged day in age, I think its very important to put fairly strict boundaries on our teens. Its pretty obvious that most kids these days don't just stop with a goodnight kiss, like Wally Cleaver may have done. Teens have no self control these days, and WAY too many who hold hands and kiss also end up having sex. Thus, the importance of having boundaries.

Secondly...I still do not appreciate the idea put forth earlier in the thread that people who DO wait to kiss are going to have some sort of sexual dysfunction. We plan to be strict on our children as far as how much contact they have with the opposite sex...sorry, we know how hard self control is and we don't want grandkids before its time. But to assume that by doing that I'm going to have four boys with sexual dysfunction is going WAY too far, especially since a study of Jewish culture will show that these people are pretty modest before marriage. I mean purity was extremely important back then. I doubt Mary and Joseph did any more than the regular greeting kiss or hug than they gave anyone else until marriage. Its not right to say that holding back is going to cause marriage problems. If holding back DOES cause the problem, it would mean there is a much deeper problem than just whether or not you kissed before your wedding day.

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I think those who do criticize people who want to wait are actually hurting their marriage than helping (Remember, I also think those who treat marriage sex as dirty isn't helping either) . Do you want them to feel abnormal and weird for wanting to wait? how that's any difference than teaching sex in general is dirty?

plus, I would think that a goodnight kiss and holding hands while trying to keep it neutral is really compressing your sexual thoughts, The very thing that I think Danny been talking about. Accepting that you do have sexual feelings (and knowing that you will be tempted) is healthy.

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Dwayner, I see what you are saying....I can agree with most of it, I think. Not quite all. I mean, we do not hold hands in our church, stuff like that. My husband is very particular about touching the opposite sex, except regular handshakes.

Two comments here....

In our sexually charged day in age, I think its very important to put fairly strict boundaries on our teens. Its pretty obvious that most kids these days don't just stop with a goodnight kiss, like Wally Cleaver may have done. Teens have no self control these days, and WAY too many who hold hands and kiss also end up having sex. Thus, the importance of having boundaries.

Secondly...I still do not appreciate the idea put forth earlier in the thread that people who DO wait to kiss are going to have some sort of sexual dysfunction. We plan to be strict on our children as far as how much contact they have with the opposite sex...sorry, we know how hard self control is and we don't want grandkids before its time. But to assume that by doing that I'm going to have four boys with sexual dysfunction is going WAY too far, especially since a study of Jewish culture will show that these people are pretty modest before marriage. I mean purity was extremely important back then. I doubt Mary and Joseph did any more than the regular greeting kiss or hug than they gave anyone else until marriage. Its not right to say that holding back is going to cause marriage problems. If holding back DOES cause the problem, it would mean there is a much deeper problem than just whether or not you kissed before your wedding day.

I can agree with those statements... for the most part as well.

I also think God intended marriage to happen earlier then it does. Mary and Joseph didn't have to wait until after college. They got to use the strongest part of their sex drive in marriage (what better to "join together" a brand new fragile marriage then lots of sex). We have to tell kids during the peek of their sex drive to abstain. We are too busy giving them the 12-16 year indoctrination process whereby they become cookie cutter citizens. Somehow I doubt God created us with an overly powerful sex-drive just to tell us to sit on until after its peak, and then go ahead and use it. That just seems out of character. So IMHO, its the lack of maturity in our kids that is the root of the sexual nature of our culture.

offtopic rant>

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One of the roots too, though, is all the tv and video games that have 12 year old kids having a powerful sex drive. In the "old days" the kids were helping the family with farms or ranches or flocks and they didn't have time to oogle girls or role play sexual things or chat online.

We have really made it difficult on our young generation to stay pure because they are introduced to sex so young. Minds are dirtied today FAR earlier than God ever intended.

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What I was saying is there is nothing wrong with showing physical affection towards any person. Physical affection is not the same as preparing your body for sex. A boy kissing a girl goodnight is not preparing their bodies for sex....it is a goodnight kiss. Making out in the back of a car or in a bedroom is preparing your bodies for sex.

There is undoubtedly different types of kisses and different types of affection. There is the affection one has for mom, dad, brother, sister, uncle, aunt, friend, colleague, girlfriend, boyfriend, etc.

Showing affection is different than sex. Showing affection is not immoral in any way, shape or form, as long as it is mutual.

I can respect two people who decide not to kiss. But, to say kissing before marriage is universally wrong can lead to a very unhealthy attitude towards affection and confusion between physical contact and sexual stimulation.


To be honest, it seems your opinion disagrees with God's opinion.

1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
1 Cor 7:1-2 (KJV)

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Your church never joins hands in prayer? If so, then by pure mathmatics, someone is going to be holding the hand of a person of the opposite sex during prayer. Is that wrong?

Admittedly, in our culture we are more apt to hug as a greeting then kiss on the cheek, but my grandmom for instance if old school. She greets everyone with a lip kiss. That is how the dutch greet, and she still has that as her greeting. If your husband met my 96yo grandmom, he would lip kiss her (He would have no choice, she grabs your face... its rather annoying). I highly doubt that kissing is a typical greeting among people these days, but hugs certainly are. You said that "a holy kiss" means a handshake in America. Where did you get that from. Who says. Its totally cultural, and within most of our christian culture a hug is a completely benign greeting (and therefore an acceptable usage of the "holy kiss").

Your asking for Biblical principles that are right in front of you (IMO of course).

Principle one - Sexual touching is off limits outside of marriage (thanks to many passages, but I Cor 7 will do).
Principle two - Affectionate greetings that show love for one another are expected (actually encouraged) in church ("holy kiss")

Now I am not trying to defend Danny's position (I don't fully understand it, so I don't want to support it), or even the others. My main point of discussion was to say that I Cor 7 does NOT mean "touch" like touch his robe. Its obvious sexual touch.

I also follow your logic between what you do to another person's husband and what you do to a potential spouse should be the same. Therefore, if its ok to Kiss your BF, if ok to kiss anyone. I get that logic, but I disagree with it. That is a completely different matter all together. In other words, the two biblical principles listed above have nothing to do with what we are talking about here. SoS talks about not awakening love (again, that is rather sexual in nature). There are plenty of warnings about sexuality, but not about how to show affection.

You would have to show some biblical reason to avoid showing affection to someone to hold that kissing before marriage is a bad thing. Its completely normal for a person to show affection according to the measure of how much of a bond they have with that person. I kiss my wife. I huge a friend. I shake hands with an aquantance. Its measured culturally. In our culture Grandmom Gerda's lip kisses are just gross, but just because she has a different cultural context, that does not make them wrong. There can certainly be holy affection between two people. That affection can include a kiss goodnight. In fact, biblically, the only affection that is off limits is sexual in nature. Now I don't recommend that for young people, because of the old slippery slope, but certainly two people can kiss goodnight without taking their clothes off (physically or mentally).

The reason the measure of bond changes after marriage is the strength of that marriage bond. Once you give the ultimate measure of affection to your spouse, the bond with others diminishes. Culturally speaking, the bond I have with my gf (before marriage) is much stronger then the one I have with my friend's wives (after marriage). That is just common sense. My wife and I have very close friends who we feel fortunate enough to be close to. I hug him and her all the time. There is a stronger bond of affection (holy affection) between the four of us then with some of our other friends. Naturally, there is more holy affection shown.


And the boy said, I got to kiss her good night on our 1st date, can't wait for our 2nd date.

After 2nd date he thinks, wow, we held hands in the car and kissed, can't wait for that 3rd date.

Surely anyone knows where this leads to.

Yes, boyfriend and girlfriend kissing and holding hands leads to a place unmarried boy and girl should never go. Why tempt one another?

Holding hands in a prayer circle or with the next one to you while praying is nothing like the boyfriend and girlfriend who are alone.

Hugging someone at church is nothing like the boyfriend and girlfriend hugging one another when they're alone.

I recall a game we played in grade school once with life savers. Each row in our class took a toothpick held it with out teeth. the teacher put a lifesaver on the toothpick of the student that set on front, them they turned in their seat and that student would try to put it on the toothpick of the student behind them and so on.

I had a boy who set in front of me, that made me uncomfortable, had a girl setting behind me, that made me uncomfortable, must have been in the 2nd or 3rd grade.

Which the point was to see who got the lifesaver to the student on the back row the quickest.

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To be honest, it seems your opinion disagrees with God's opinion.

1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
1 Cor 7:1-2 (KJV)


I think what you mean is that my opinion disagrees with your interpretation of God's opinion.

Those verses clearly refer to touching in a sexual way.

Physical contact is not the same as sexual contact. Contact to show affection is not the same as sexual contact.

The Biblical principal is that we should not touch each other in a sexual way outside of marriage. Kissing a date goodnight is far different from making out.

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If My son kissed a girl goodnight, I wouldn't act like he have sinned as if he had sex. I just think that he should work on avoiding temptation and that it is a good idea to wait your first kiss on the day you marry.

kinda like telling a child not to smell and touch a cookie if he can't resist the temptation. In fact, you would put it away until he is allowed to eat the cookie.

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I think what you mean is that my opinion disagrees with your interpretation of God's opinion.

Those verses clearly refer to touching in a sexual way.

Physical contact is not the same as sexual contact. Contact to show affection is not the same as sexual contact.

The Biblical principal is that we should not touch each other in a sexual way outside of marriage. Kissing a date goodnight is far different from making out.


To the boyfriend and girlfriend who feel they're in love with one another kissing can lead to touching in a sexual way. And I'll guarantee that kiss your son or daughter places on their girlfriend & or boyfriend is much different than that kiss they kiss you with and means a completely different thing. I was not born yesterday nor did I just fall of the turnip truck.

The 1st step for our modern teens in having sex starts with them holding hands and kissing.

Why tempt one another? Why encourage teens to temp one another?

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I know from my own personal experiences that kissing, even just a good-night kiss, to your date or girlfriend brings about sexual feelings and thoughts. It's also the case that kissing is generally the beginning of sexual things.

Kissing is one of the most passionate connections a couple can share and it releases so many hormones and feelings that raise sexual awareness and excitement. This is especially true when folks are younger and everything is in hyperdrive anyway.

And just like Jerry pointed out; the kissing leads to wanting just a little more...which leads to wanting just a little more...which leads to...

How many times have we heard about young Christian folks getting caught up in out of wedlock pregnancies and the story is typically the same. We started out kissing and then thought it would be okay to do this too and later it lead to doing that and eventually...

Best not to fire the stove up if you don't want it to burn.

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Seems this is something many Christians just can't understand, what holding hands and kissing will lead to among teenagers. I'm 61 years old and I understand that well. Perhaps that is one reason there is so many babies born out of wedlock.

Of course now days there are many churches that sponsors a shower for the young unwed mother rewarding sinful behavior and it influences other young girls to do the same.

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What does I Corinthians mean then, when its says it is good for a man not to touch a woman?

I'm sure I"d have loved kissing around before marriage. Probably would have even enjoyed sex after engagement, as would anyone. But we waited. Why? Biblical principles....


that's the best example. I know from experience that if I kiss my bf one time, then the next time I'd want another kiss, and perhaps after a month, more kisses. This is very tricky cause it can lead to inappropriate situations thus it is better to stop it from the beginning by keeping physical contact to a bare minimum.

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