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Will

Perhaps I'm more out of touch with the world than I thought

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Who taught Adam and Eve? Did God? Or did they learn on their own? Did God build something into the mind of both man and woman about sex?

I think dirty would be a good word to use when talking about sex outside of marriage, for it is sinful and dirty outside of marriage, but in marriage it is not.

I think to much emphasis is put on sex now days, so many marriage fail, perhaps they're expecting to much.

Sad, today it seems everything is about sex, and the people who sell stuff use sex to sell their products.

And of course there's Hollywood, they have made any kind of sex OK, and anyone who disagrees with them a prude.

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Who taught Adam and Eve? Did God? Or did they learn on their own? Did God build something into the mind of both man and woman about sex?

I think dirty would be a good word to use when talking about sex outside of marriage, for it is sinful and dirty outside of marriage, but in marriage it is not.

I think to much emphasis is put on sex now days, so many marriage fail, perhaps they're expecting to much.

Sad, today it seems everything is about sex, and the people who sell stuff use sex to sell their products.

And of course there's Hollywood, they have made any kind of sex OK, and anyone who disagrees with them a prude.


This is the reason parents and churches need to rightly address the topic today.

As you point out, sex is everywhere and used for everything. Kids grow up today with sex right in front of them and in their ears nearly everywhere they go. They need to learn the truth from parents and to hear the biblical aspects taught in church.

Those who don't learn right find themselves learning from all the wrong sources and that often leads to wrong expectations and problems.

I do agree, our society today is far too sex saturated.

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You guys are missing the point. It goes beyond just kissing and just my experience. A friend of mine, who was a virgin when she got married, told me (years later) that she cried with shame on her wedding night because she couldn't shed the feeling that she'd just done something dirty. An over-emphasis on the rejection of sex leads to harmful, hard-to-eliminate problems.

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You guys are missing the point. It goes beyond just kissing and just my experience. A friend of mine' date=' who was a virgin when she got married, told me (years later) that she cried with shame on her wedding night because she couldn't shed the feeling that she'd just done something dirty. An over-emphasis on the rejection of sex leads to harmful, hard-to-eliminate problems.[/quote']


Danny, I honestly don't think it's an over-emphasis on the rejection of sex. I think it's a wrong teaching of it by the parents. Maybe it's the same idea you are trying to get across. But, really, I have to insert here that our church teaches abstinence - and not even any kissing. And guess what - they have happy marriages. Oh, things aren't perfect. But they're happy. And judging by the number of kids there are running around our church, I don't think they're having any major problems.

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You guys are missing the point. It goes beyond just kissing and just my experience. A friend of mine' date=' who was a virgin when she got married, told me (years later) that she cried with shame on her wedding night because she couldn't shed the feeling that she'd just done something dirty. An over-emphasis on the rejection of sex leads to harmful, hard-to-eliminate problems.[/quote']


I don't think teaching abstience teaches sex as dirty. People have all kind of reasons why sex is awful for them. I think it has alot to do with their parental child-rearing. My family used to make fun of sex, you know make jokes. I don't want to talk about it to my family members or friends at all. My husband's family do the same thing, make jokes (my MIL used to make porn cakes for a living). And my hubby doesn't really talk about sex either. They had really polluted the meaning of sex alot. So have the media. They won't treat sex as something special and meaningful anymore.but yes, treating sex in general as dirty can have affect on you. But so can SO many things. I know you think flushing the thought of sex all together from your mind affect marriages but I don't think so. It's ok for a man to find a girl pretty and attractive but he shouldn't be fantasizing her (unless he is married to her). That itself can pollute the meaning of love and sex. It's what playboy/playgirl magazine been trying to toy with: A person's fantasy.

Most women cry on their first time. Especially if they didn't wait before marriage. I cried. I lost something that I can't take back.

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Well, it is sad that people are raised that way. This is why we need to get back to what the Bible says and change our views where they are wrong.

Danny, I feel sorry for your situation because I know the ingrained effects such teaching can have on a person. But refraining from kissing before marriage is not the underlying reason for a dysfunctional sex life. Neither is being a virgin before marriage. I know plenty of people who waited and now have a very fulfilling sex life. The underlying reason is wrong teaching and wrong thinking and sometimes physical problems. This should be investigated, counselled, etc.

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Jess, Kitagirl, Psalm18_28, John81 and others--thanks for the direct responses to my post. Lots of good points about a difficult-to-discuss subject! Quite aside from discussions about to what extent abstinence should be taught before marriage, I've found it enlightening to be told that the Bible has quite a different take on sex to the Victorian attitude that society still seems to adopt. Thanks again.

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[quote="Bakershalfdozen"]Well, it is sad that people are raised that way. This is why we need to get back to what the Bible says and change our views where they are wrong.
[/quote]
:amen: :goodpost: This is the heart of the matter. God didn't make anything wrong or dirty and marital intimacy within God's framework of marriage wherein He (God) is at the center is an exceedingly beautiful thing. In fact it is so beautiful that God even wrote a whole book about it (i.e. Song of Solomon) and placed it in His Book of Books, the Bible, aka the Living Word of God. Not only that let's not forget that God thinks so much of His Word that He has placed It above His very name.

Now then, since marital intimacy is not dirty, where is the problem??? Very simply it is man's twisted, warped, erroneous and sinful teaching about it. We see a pattern:::::: Whatever God designs and develops Satan disdains, destroys, and distorts.

[size=85]Please pardon my alliteration. :lol: [/size]

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I know I'm out of touch with the world, I'm glad of it, we are suppose to be out of touch with this world. Have you noticed, when God is spoken of the world hears us not? When se speak of something being a sin the world hears us not?

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 John 4:5-6 (KJV)

Probably be very good for more parents to be out of touch with the world and keep their children out of touch with the world.

19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

1 John 5:19 (KJV)

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You guys are missing the point. It goes beyond just kissing and just my experience. A friend of mine' date=' who was a virgin when she got married, told me (years later) that she cried with shame on her wedding night because she couldn't shed the feeling that she'd just done something dirty. An over-emphasis on the rejection of sex leads to harmful, hard-to-eliminate problems.[/quote']
This particular couple, as far as I can tell, does NOT do what you accuse them of, and that can be seen from their two minute long kiss on their wedding day. End of story. This couple does not say that sex or kissing or hugging or whatevering is dirty, bad, awful, or anything. They just say don't do it before marriage and they practised what they preached. So, what's the reason for this discussion? No offense, but I personally think this couple (from what we can see in the story) did the right thing.

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:goodpost:

I told my hub about this discussion and not only did he agree with what I said and others but he said that if you go into a marriage having kissed and made out (not necessarily sex) then you can't help but wonder who else your spouse has kissed with and made out with while they "practiced" for you.

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I've got to say, not kissing until one's wedding day is a completely foreign concept to me. I have no idea why anyone would want to do that.

Today, many Christians seem to equate any physical contact with the opposite sex with sex. I do agree young couples need to limit the time they spend alone and be careful about the situtations they put themselves in, but no kissing seems very extreme to me. That makes it sound like kissing is sex. Hugs and kisses are a sign of affection, and does not necessarily lead to sex. I kiss lots of people that I have a close relationship with.

Why does kissing have to be equated with sexual stimulation? That seems to give young people a negative perception of all physical contact, and can easily lead to being legalistic or setting them up for problems later in life in expressing their affection physically with other people (not in a sexual way).

It seems to me we need to teach young people how to show affection to others in a non sexual way. Young men and women hold hands, hug, kiss, to show their affection. It is teaching them about life. I do not mean kissing as in making out in the back of a car...again, we also need to teach a healthy respect for sex and what actions prepare one's body for sex. In order to preserve what is best for marriage, it is best not to act in a way to prepare your body for sex with one's boyfriend/girlfriend. However, some physical activity, done in a way not to prepare one's body for sex, is good and healthy. People are smart enough to know which kind of kissing is ok and what is not. But to say all kissing can lead to an unhealthy mindset with regards to expressing affection to others.

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I've got to say, not kissing until one's wedding day is a completely foreign concept to me. I have no idea why anyone would want to do that.

Today, many Christians seem to equate any physical contact with the opposite sex with sex. I do agree young couples need to limit the time they spend alone and be careful about the situtations they put themselves in, but no kissing seems very extreme to me. That makes it sound like kissing is sex. Hugs and kisses are a sign of affection, and does not necessarily lead to sex. I kiss lots of people that I have a close relationship with.

Why does kissing have to be equated with sexual stimulation? That seems to give young people a negative perception of all physical contact, and can easily lead to being legalistic or setting them up for problems later in life in expressing their affection physically with other people (not in a sexual way).

It seems to me we need to teach young people how to show affection to others in a non sexual way. Young men and women hold hands, hug, kiss, to show their affection. It is teaching them about life. I do not mean kissing as in making out in the back of a car...again, we also need to teach a healthy respect for sex and what actions prepare one's body for sex. In order to preserve what is best for marriage, it is best not to act in a way to prepare your body for sex with one's boyfriend/girlfriend. However, some physical activity, done in a way not to prepare one's body for sex, is good and healthy. People are smart enough to know which kind of kissing is ok and what is not. But to say all kissing can lead to an unhealthy mindset with regards to expressing affection to others.


I find myself in unfamiliar territory in mostly agreeing with you concerning this matter!

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What does I Corinthians mean then, when its says it is good for a man not to touch a woman?

I'm sure I"d have loved kissing around before marriage. Probably would have even enjoyed sex after engagement, as would anyone. But we waited. Why? Biblical principles....

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What does I Corinthians mean then, when its says it is good for a man not to touch a woman?

I'm sure I"d have loved kissing around before marriage. Probably would have even enjoyed sex after engagement, as would anyone. But we waited. Why? Biblical principles....


Listen, I give my Dad, my Mom, my Aunt and other family and friends a hug and a kiss each time I greet them. I'm not thinking I'm "kissing around" with them and that is the context in which I took Kind's post.

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The reason some decide not to kiss because they don't want to fall into temptation. They've seen their friends tried and failed. They heard stories like mine: That one thing lead to another. They know in this day and age, it is harder and harder to resist temptation. Most of the time, guys are already tempted to touch a woman's body before they even kiss. When that happen , it make it very hard for a person to get to know another person.

I remember my first kiss. I was 14 years old. The simple of kiss made me want reach out more. Because I was in love with the guy and I wanted to be more closer to him. I can't explain it. but that funny feeling you get when you really like someone make a simple kiss a world difference.

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Amazing to me that anyone would equate kissing their girlfriend when they're alone to kissing dad, mom, grandma, aunt, and or sister. Its no where near the same thing.

Anyone is lying to their self if they don't think kissing their girlfriend or boyfriend when they're along and by their self will not lead to sex. Doing so takes you right up to the door of temptations, once there its difficult not to walk thru. Many times we temp our self beyond what we can withstand.

And anime4christ is perfectly right, the coupe this topic was started about did everything the right way. That said, that's the way it is, even when people do things God's way they will get knocked around by many Christians.

To be honest, many will make a mountain out of a mole hill.

By the way, I did use the word dirty and nasty, ALL SINS are dirty, nasty, and very ugly. If you don' believe that think about what our Lord and Savior when thru to pay our sin debt.

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By the way' date=' I did use the word dirty and nasty, ALL SINS are dirty, nasty, and very ugly. If you don' believe that think about what our Lord and Savior when thru to pay our sin debt.[/quote']

You're right but the problem I was addressing is when a married woman thinks that having sex is dirty and nasty. It is wrong for parents to teach their children about the sinful side w/o also teaching about the right and proper side. This obviously produces a distorted view of the marital relationship.

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What I was saying is there is nothing wrong with showing physical affection towards any person. Physical affection is not the same as preparing your body for sex. A boy kissing a girl goodnight is not preparing their bodies for sex....it is a goodnight kiss. Making out in the back of a car or in a bedroom is preparing your bodies for sex.

There is undoubtedly different types of kisses and different types of affection. There is the affection one has for mom, dad, brother, sister, uncle, aunt, friend, colleague, girlfriend, boyfriend, etc.

Showing affection is different than sex. Showing affection is not immoral in any way, shape or form, as long as it is mutual.

I can respect two people who decide not to kiss. But, to say kissing before marriage is universally wrong can lead to a very unhealthy attitude towards affection and confusion between physical contact and sexual stimulation.

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I noticed that so far nobody is commenting on the Bible verse, but rather discussing personal preferences.


Again, yeah, my personal preference before marriage was not the same as what I DID due to what I believed to be in Scripture.

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What does I Corinthians mean then, when its says it is good for a man not to touch a woman?

I'm sure I"d have loved kissing around before marriage. Probably would have even enjoyed sex after engagement, as would anyone. But we waited. Why? Biblical principles....


There is ample Biblical (contextual and textual) evidence to assume "touch" is a euphemism for sexual relations.

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There is ample Biblical (contextual and textual) evidence to assume "touch" is a euphemism for sexual relations.


If you don't mind Greek word studies, its the same word used in the verse when the woman touched the hem of Jesus' garment...

Otherwise if its ok to kiss and hug and hold hands with someone you aren't married to, then it would logically be okay for me to kiss, hug, and hold hands with someone who is not my husband as long as it wasn't "sexual". Following the same logic....right?

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If you don't mind Greek word studies, its the same word used in the verse when the woman touched the hem of Jesus' garment...

Otherwise if its ok to kiss and hug and hold hands with someone you aren't married to, then it would logically be okay for me to kiss, hug, and hold hands with someone who is not my husband as long as it wasn't "sexual". Following the same logic....right?

Word Studies have a few pitfalls, one in particular is that you have the freedom to pick the usage you want, and often they miss the use of Figure of speech. There are plenty of passages that use the same phrase as meaning sex. More then that, the immediate context of the passage makes this completely obvious** what is meant. I have read ever commentator I own, and every one of them agrees. Your's is a tough case to make, and realistically I am more then confident touch, in this case, does not mean touch like touching his robe.

So the answer to your question is yes, You can hold hands with another woman/man (we do this during the closing prayer in church sometimes) or hug a greeting (we do this all the time to our friends as a greeting) and even kiss (like on the cheek as a greeting).


** what is not completely obvious, interestingly enough, is whether as Matthew Henry thinks he is actually talking about marriage (i.e. its better not to marry, but for fornication sake, let each take a wife) or if as most of the others think, he is talking about fornication, (I.e. its better to be celibate in general, but for fornication sake, let each take a wife). Its a semantic difference, with only a slight difference in application, but both are obviously discussing sex.

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What I was saying is there is nothing wrong with showing physical affection towards any person. Physical affection is not the same as preparing your body for sex. A boy kissing a girl goodnight is not preparing their bodies for sex....it is a goodnight kiss. Making out in the back of a car or in a bedroom is preparing your bodies for sex.

There is undoubtedly different types of kisses and different types of affection. There is the affection one has for mom, dad, brother, sister, uncle, aunt, friend, colleague, girlfriend, boyfriend, etc.

Showing affection is different than sex. Showing affection is not immoral in any way, shape or form, as long as it is mutual.

I can respect two people who decide not to kiss. But, to say kissing before marriage is universally wrong can lead to a very unhealthy attitude towards affection and confusion between physical contact and sexual stimulation.



I would think anyone who see goodnight kiss as a sisterly/brotherly type of kiss don't really have feelings for that person. If that's the case, they really shouldn't be the one you should marry. I think if you really like the person, your feelings for him would be so strong that you would rather avoid kissing until marriage. (but then again, there are people who avoid kissing because they simply don't like the person)

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