Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Will

Perhaps I'm more out of touch with the world than I thought

Recommended Posts

Because I just didn't find this article to be anything majorly out of the ordinary, or particularly newsworthy.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459247,00.html

CHICAGO ? Won't kiss on the first date? How about waiting until marriage?

Chicagoans Melody LaLuz, 28, and Claudaniel Fabien, 30, shared their first kiss Saturday at the altar. The two teach abstinence at the city's public schools and practiced what they preached to their teenage students.

The Chicago Tribune reports that the couple had never kissed and that they had never been alone together in a house.

A friend of LaLuz says wedding guests cheered and stomped during the two-minute smooch.

LaLuz and Fabien say they have no worries about how they will spend their honeymoon in the Bahamas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found it a bit disturbing. There's a problem with too much emphasis on abstinence, in that while sex before marriage is wrong, setting yourself up mentally as a "eunuch" has long lasting repercussions.

There are two ways to break a horse. One way is quick. You simply beat the horse into submission. You either ride it until it gives up, or do somethign else cruel to it until it weakly submits to you.

The other way is slower, but preserved the horses "spirit". It learns to obey you, but maintains its energy.

If you intend the horse for simple menial jobs, then you use the first approach.

If you want the horse for racing, or any other things that will require the mental strength a horse with an unbroken spirit will have, then you use the second method.

Abstinence works the same way. If you don't plan to ever have sex, then you'd want to completely subdue the desire, and shape your mind to make it a non-factor.

However if you plan to get married one day, you do not want to wind up at the starting line of a big race with a spiritless horse fit only for plowing the field. (while I'm sure there are plenty of puns people could derive from that, none are intended)

I've seen first hand the life-long problem faced by young Christians who took the wrong approach to purity. Rather than keeping this great gift under control, they completely subdued it, and once married had serious problems trying to undue the damage.

Sex is mostly psychological, and patterns and habits form the foundation and boundaries of that psychological "engine". This aspect is ignored in secular circles (even though it is well founded in facts and research) because it flies in the face of the homosexual agenda. But unfortunately it's also ignored in Christian circles because too many people see the first approach to abstinence as easier to maintain, than the second, and healthier approach.

One should practice abstinence of the body, but not abstinence of the mind, unless you plan to never, ever have sex.

Waiting until marriage to kiss is evidence of taking the concept too far.

C.S. Lewis once wrote...

In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the gelding be fruitful.

He was actually talking about moral relativism, but I think the thought is apply applied to the excesses of chastity seen practiced today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For most these days, it's expected that by the time a child is 12 or 13 they have already had "dates" and have done lots of kissing...and often, much more.

One recent study indicated a very large percentage of 15 year olds were no longer virgins and that those much younger, while still "technically" virgins, were even so very sexually active.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I found it a bit disturbing. There's a problem with too much emphasis on abstinence, in that while sex before marriage is wrong, setting yourself up mentally as a "eunuch" has long lasting repercussions.

There are two ways to break a horse. One way is quick. You simply beat the horse into submission. You either ride it until it gives up, or do somethign else cruel to it until it weakly submits to you.

The other way is slower, but preserved the horses "spirit". It learns to obey you, but maintains its energy.

If you intend the horse for simple menial jobs, then you use the first approach.

If you want the horse for racing, or any other things that will require the mental strength a horse with an unbroken spirit will have, then you use the second method.

Abstinence works the same way. If you don't plan to ever have sex, then you'd want to completely subdue the desire, and shape your mind to make it a non-factor.

However if you plan to get married one day, you do not want to wind up at the starting line of a big race with a spiritless horse fit only for plowing the field. (while I'm sure there are plenty of puns people could derive from that, none are intended)

I've seen first hand the life-long problem faced by young Christians who took the wrong approach to purity. Rather than keeping this great gift under control, they completely subdued it, and once married had serious problems trying to undue the damage.

Sex is mostly psychological, and patterns and habits form the foundation and boundaries of that psychological "engine". This aspect is ignored in secular circles (even though it is well founded in facts and research) because it flies in the face of the homosexual agenda. But unfortunately it's also ignored in Christian circles because too many people see the first approach to abstinence as easier to maintain, than the second, and healthier approach.

One should practice abstinence of the body, but not abstinence of the mind, unless you plan to never, ever have sex.

Waiting until marriage to kiss is evidence of taking the concept too far.

C.S. Lewis once wrote...

In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the gelding be fruitful.

He was actually talking about moral relativism, but I think the thought is apply applied to the excesses of chastity seen practiced today.


A: You've obviously never broken a horse, as your analogy is so out of whack that I don't know where to begin. Suffice it to say however, that there are ways of gentling a horse that don't involve riding it into submission, or using other "cruel" means.

B: What on earth do you mean by "abstinence of the mind". I think it's important that you define this, before we continue this discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One should practice abstinence of the body' date=' but not abstinence of the mind, unless you plan to never, ever have sex.[/quote']
Danny, I think that even in secular circles (at least where I live), children are brought up to understand that sex is per se dirty and wrong--including thinking about it, which is lustful and perverted. These early ideas may be sublated by other ones later on, but that's the first thing children are taught and those ideas remain ingrained for some. What does the Bible actually say about this sort of thing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Danny Carlton thanks so much for assuming that I have sexual problems in my marriage because I did not kiss until I was married. :roll


You should be glad that you waited too. Because my past relationships did bring some baggage to my marriage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


There are child molesters (especially in the family) who treat it as a beautiful thing... and these kids grow up feeling worst than ever.

Parents know their kids are experimental and curiosity does make them try things. Some kids will ask another kid to take off his clothes so he could have a peek. Because they are not mature enough to understand, We have to teach them about private parts are meant to be private. At least until they are mature enough to understand why it must be private.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You didn't bother to read the whole post. I said there were two main ways of breaking a horse, the quick and the slow. I never said there was only one way, and the whole point was that there are two way.

To train your mind to think negatively of sex. Even if it's to push all thoughts of sex away, you are establishing patterns that will can bring problems later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Danny Carlton thanks so much for assuming that I have sexual problems in my marriage because I did not kiss until I was married. :roll

If you have trained yourself to push away thoughts of sex, then yes, there may be problems that you even now are unaware of. the point is that it's very easy to overdo the emphasis on abstinence, way beyond the point of simply abstaining from sex until marriage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you miss his point. Teaching a child that sex is dirty is bad. It leads to problems. Teaching a child that sex is holy, and only appropriate under the proper circumstances (marriage) is Godly, and exactly what the Bible commands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think most people go to those extremes, Danny. I don't plan on kissing my wife until marriage but I certainly won't be having negative thoughts about sex. :frog
Plus, I don't have a problem with holding hands or giving hugs that are appropriate between an unmarried couple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think most people go to those extremes, Danny. I don't plan on kissing my wife until marriage but I certainly won't be having negative thoughts about sex. :frog
Plus, I don't have a problem with holding hands or giving hugs that are appropriate between an unmarried couple.

Let me assure you, I speak from experience. My wife was firm that she didn't want to kiss until after marriage. The problem was that she didn't know how, when or why to kiss, and still doesn't. I'm not saying people should go on long make-out sessions before marriage, but too much emphasis on total abstinence, even of one's thoughts will lead to problems.

Homosexuals do what they do because they create patterns of response. When dealing with former homosexuals who are trying to recover from their problem and establish a healthy approach to sex, they must unlearn deeply embedded patterns. That exact same process--embedding patterns of response--can be created by an over-emphasis on abstinence which can produce frigidity and an apathy toward sex. God did not create sex for us to abandon it or participate in it half-heartedly. While adultery, fornication and promiscuity are sins, so is taking the wonderful gift of God and treating it as something bad or mediocre.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Further to my post earlier--can someone provide a quick summary of the Biblical position on sex? Most kids seem to be taught that it is always dirty and wrong, including thinking about it. That's what I was taught, though not always directly. This view of sex can remain into adulthood, even if it is sublated or modified by other teachings/experiences. Perhaps there's a practical reason for teaching kids like this, but I was just wondering what the Biblical standpoint was for adults. Danny's made some interesting points, I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh please, Danny....so you are building your theory, not on Biblical principles, but because your wife is a bad kisser????

Seriously?

This is a prime example of someone building theories based on personal experience. Discipline of both mind and body is vital in the Christian life. Guess what. When I'm dieting, I say no to chocolate and dessert. I try not to eat it. I try not to think about my desire for a big bowl of ice cream or a King Sized candy bar. But that doesn't mean that after I lose ten pounds, I will enjoy it any less! As a matter of fact, I will enjoy it MORE because it is without GUILT that I will be partaking of the sweets.

Something for you to think about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alimantado....the Bible says "It is good for a man not to touch a woman...nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife....."

Marriage is taught as the form for sex or touching. God says "The marriage bed is undefiled".

Joseph did not "know" Mary until she had delivered Jesus.

I do not know about kissing, but judging by "it is good for a man not to touch a woman" I would guess it would be awfully safe to avoid kissing until marriage. I know from personal experience that kissing usually leads to sex. Most married couples actually can attest to the fact that some real good french kissing leads to, well, alot more...alot of the time.

We chose to wait til our marriage day to kiss. And my husband can attest to the fact I performed quite well that day, at least for him, and that's all that matters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Further to my post earlier--can someone provide a quick summary of the Biblical position on sex? Most kids seem to be taught that it is always dirty and wrong' date=' including thinking about it. That's what I was taught, though not always directly. This view of sex can remain into adulthood, even if it is sublated or modified by other teachings/experiences. Perhaps there's a practical reason for teaching kids like this, but I was just wondering what the Biblical standpoint was [i']for adults. Danny's made some interesting points, I think.


Since Kitagrl already explain what the bible says, I think I go ahead and explain my opinion.

I personally believe that parents should explain their teenage children why their body is changing and make it a positive thing for marriage.

And that not waiting before marriage has alot consequences to it. Like when a boyfriend stop seeing you or used you for sex. Or you got pregnant with no father in the picture , leaving you as a single parent with some struggles(marriage is a sure guaranteed that your child WILL have a father,although not always<---which can be caused by negative outlook on marriage and family).Or you will be forced give your children up for adoptions. I have ran into a few people who told me that they rather have abortion than give their children up for adoptions out of fear of child abuse. And Abortion itself is emotionally traumatic for some women.

Then you have AIDS and such, although we won't know if the husband has it, so I personally think kids should be taught how to protect themselves in case if their spouse do have AIDS (you know, prepare them to protect them before their honeymoon) .. The last thing they need is to die on their children like what's happening in Africa. Most wives end up with abortion because they have AIDS. So that's why I don't have a problem with teaching young adults about protection. As long as they treat sex as only for marriage.

And goodness sake, men need to treat sex with some respect and love and not as "getting some" Too many men have abuse the meaning of sex so much that women have a negative view on men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know there are those out there who teach the "sex is dirty" stuff (either intentionally or unintentionally) and that's certainly the wrong approach and unbiblical.

That said, I don't think anyone here is speaking of teaching such. It seems all of us have been proposing the teaching of sex biblically. Sex is wonderful between a married couple. There are various reasons, Biblical, medical and otherwise, for not having sex outside of marriage. It's also important to teach that having sexual thoughts or desires is natural, but such need to be dealt with properly (in a biblical manner). It's one thing to notice Cindy and think she's got nice lips or whatever, but it's very much another to dwell on that thought and to allow it to turn into lust...for example.

There are always exceptions, but for the most part, I don't think ones ability to kiss is that much influenced by what age they started kissing or how much "practice" they had prior to marriage.

I fully agree that teaching sex is dirty and all such thoughts should be supressed as dirty and the act of sex is dirty and that sort of thing is wrong, unbiblical and even wicked. I've read several stories about women who were brought up with such beliefs (many were old time Catholics who were taught that sex was dirty and only to be had when trying to have a child in marriage and it's something not to be enjoyed because that's sinful) who suffered much throughout their lives because of such teachings. They felt guilty when they enjoyed sex with their husbands, they were often rigid, cold and unresponsive during sex for fear they might enjoy it or appear too eager, etc.

Teaching sex biblically and honestly (appropriate to age and understanding levels, of course) is our proper response.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me assure you, I speak from experience. My wife was firm that she didn't want to kiss until after marriage. The problem was that she didn't know how, when or why to kiss, and still doesn't. I'm not saying people should go on long make-out sessions before marriage, but too much emphasis on total abstinence, even of one's thoughts will lead to problems.

Homosexuals do what they do because they create patterns of response. When dealing with former homosexuals who are trying to recover from their problem and establish a healthy approach to sex, they must unlearn deeply embedded patterns. That exact same process--embedding patterns of response--can be created by an over-emphasis on abstinence which can produce frigidity and an apathy toward sex. God did not create sex for us to abandon it or participate in it half-heartedly. While adultery, fornication and promiscuity are sins, so is taking the wonderful gift of God and treating it as something bad or mediocre.



I just want you to know that you and your wife learn together. She does not need to learn how to kiss by another man to prepare herself for marriage. And beside, what if you were the first man she learned to kiss before marriage?

btw, many married people stop kissing after they got married, if they kissed alot before marriage. So this is a typical marriage problems no matter what kind of upbringing they had or what kind of lifestyle. I hear so many secular people complained that their marriage is bland, lifeless, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



I just want you to know that you and your wife learn together. She does not need to learn how to kiss by another man to prepare herself for marriage. And beside, what if you were the first man she learned to kiss before marriage?

btw, many married people stop kissing after they got married, if they kissed alot before marriage. So this is a typical marriage problems no matter what kind of upbringing they had or what kind of lifestyle. I hear so many secular people complained that their marriage is bland, lifeless, etc.


:goodpost:

I know of many older couples (some from the past, some current) who no longer kiss much. When they do kiss it's the simple "pucker kiss" or "smooch" (whatever folks call it) and that's about it.

My wife and I still kiss but not near as much as we used to but there is no problem involved, that's just the way we are now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alimantado,

Sex is not taboo. It shouldn't be a dirty word or thought of as a dirty deed. The only restriction God puts on sex is that it is to be between a married (to each other) man and woman. And God created both men and women to enjoy it.

It is the world that has put a sinful spin on sex. Hellywood, Playboy, Hustler, etc. market sex as a naughty pleasure, something to do or watch away from Mom and Dad's rules or "the old bag" [wife]. That is why some parents, mainly women, hesitate to talk about sex to their kids or they will tell them it is dirty. They want to keep their kids away from the sinful exploitations of sex. God doesn't do that, however.

God thought that married sex is so important He devoted an entire book of the Bible to the subject of married love - [u]Song of Solomon[/u]. That beautiful, poetic book graphically expresses physical and emotional love between a man and a woman.

Proverbs chapter 5 is devoted to warnings against the "strange woman" while exhorting a man to "rejoice with the wife of your youth". It isn't just sex = no, no, no, bad, bad, bad. It is that sex is wrong in this context so enjoy it in the proper context. The whole chapter is in the spoiler if you want to read it. [spoiler]<< Proverbs 5 >>


1 My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding:
2 That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge.
3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil:
4 But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.
5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
6 Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them.
7 Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth.
8 Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house:
9 Lest thou give thine honour unto others, and thy years unto the cruel:
10 Lest strangers be filled with thy wealth; and thy labours be in the house of a stranger;
11 And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed,
12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof;
13 And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me!
14 I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly.
15 Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well.
16 Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets.
17 Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee.
18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.
19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.
20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?
21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings.
22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.[/spoiler]

Paul exhorted the married Corinthian Christians to engage in sexual activity on a regular basis as a guard against fornication.

[i]1 Corinthians 7

1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alimantado,

Sex is not taboo. It shouldn't be a dirty word or thought of as a dirty deed. The only restriction God puts on sex is that it is to be between a married (to each other) man and woman. And God created both men and women to enjoy it.

It is the world that has put a sinful spin on sex. Hellywood, Playboy, Hustler, etc. market sex as a naughty pleasure, something to do or watch away from Mom and Dad's rules or "the old bag" [wife]. That is why some parents, mainly women, hesitate to talk about sex to their kids or they will tell them it is dirty. They want to keep their kids away from the sinful exploitations of sex. God doesn't do that, however.

God thought that married sex is so important He devoted an entire book of the Bible to the subject of married love - Song of Solomon. That beautiful, poetic book graphically expresses physical and emotional love between a man and a woman.

Proverbs chapter 5 is devoted to warnings against the "strange woman" while exhorting a man to "rejoice with the wife of your youth". It isn't just sex = no, no, no, bad, bad, bad. It is that sex is wrong in this context so enjoy it in the proper context. The whole chapter is in the spoiler if you want to read it.

1 My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding: 2 That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge. 3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil: 4 But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword. 5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. 6 Lest thou shouldest ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that thou canst not know them. 7 Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth. 8 Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house: 9 Lest thou give thine honour unto others, and thy years unto the cruel: 10 Lest strangers be filled with thy wealth; and thy labours be in the house of a stranger; 11 And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed, 12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my heart despised reproof; 13 And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined mine ear to them that instructed me! 14 I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly. 15 Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well. 16 Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets. 17 Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee. 18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. 19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love. 20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger? 21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings. 22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.

<< Proverbs 5 >>



























Paul exhorted the married Corinthian Christians to engage in sexual activity on a regular basis as a guard against fornication.

1 Corinthians 7

1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online   1 Member, 0 Anonymous, 44 Guests (See full list)

Article Categories

About Us

Since 2001, Online Baptist has been an Independent Baptist website, and we exclusively use the King James Version of the Bible. We pride ourselves on a community that uplifts the Lord.

Contact Us

You can contact us using the following link. Contact Us or for questions regarding this website please contact @pastormatt or email James Foley at jfoley@sisqtel.net

Android App

Online Baptist has a custom App for all android users. You can download it from the Google Play store or click the following icon.

×
×
  • Create New...