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Calvinism on the March


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Those Scriptures do not advance the argument either way. You could post a set of Scriptures showing willing acceptance of salvation. The Holy Spirit renews us & gives us life, so we welcome the Saviour we may have long rejected.

Eze. 36:25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



Brother Ian, those verses debunk irresistible grace. Edited by Rick Schworer
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To "please" means two things: a ) to make happy, or b ) to satisfy.

Christ suffering on the cross did not make His Father happy, as you are strangly suggesting, but it did satisfy his demand for a holy sacrifice.


Um, how can you be satisfied and unhappy? I understand that might make sense if it would say that Christ's suffering satisfied God's demand for justice (and that is true), but that verse says it pleased God, not merely His justice as though justice is a thing owned by God and not a part of Him. God was pleased to bruise [crush] him. Pleasing, whether defined as satisfaction, or as more than just satisfaction, includes an element of pleasure. For example, if you were in sharp pain, and were given a pain killer that did nothing but stop the pain and didn't give you any pleasant feelings in and of itself, it would still give you pleasure, because it would take away the source of your anguish. The relative difference between the painful state and the normal state would be pleasing even if at other times a painless state might have no effect on your mood. Even when we are hungry and eat and are satisfied. That satisfaction brings pleasure, even if a small amount. Satisfaction and pleasure are not separable. Pleasure is just usually a stronger word for satisfaction. It's satisfaction on a higher level.

Once again, however, God's pleasure was not merely in crushing His Son, but in the results it would bring. Ultimately, it brought God more pleasure to crush His Son for the purpose of redeeming His elect than it did to keep Him from suffering, even though His Son's suffering was something that I believe brought Him grief as well. One reason to believe that was what Jesus said in Matthew 26:53: "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?" It seems here that Jesus could have backed out if He wanted to and His plea would have tipped the scale and He would have not died. But I believe that Jesus shared the same hope of a greater future joy as His Father did, and that is why He still decided to go on the cross and die for us: "who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." - Hebrews 12:2.

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. - Psalm 115:3
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Brother Ian, those verses debunk irresistible grace.

Gen. 6:3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

John 6:39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
...
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

16:7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Acts 24:24And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

The Holy Spirit witnesses to man in various ways - the glories of creation (e.g Ps. 19), preaching, etc - but man in his natural state always rejects that witness - willingly. The Holy Spirit does more to the elect - he shows us our sin & our Saviour, gives new life to those who were dead in trespasses and sins. Saving grace gives life, not condemnation, & that life eagerly believes in Jesus, God & Saviour.
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Can you clarify, are you saying that the person has everlasting life, and then he believes?

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
I do not want to argue technicalities, but whatever an unsaved person believes does not save him. The process of salvation may take a long time, conviction & repentance, seeking salvation, are not salvation, but at some point he has new spiritual life & believes. Yes, new life comes before faith.

There are many people that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and the need for salvation in Jesus, and yet they don't trust Christ and become part of the elect. Agreed.
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Once upon a time, a great ruler chose a group of his subjects for his glorious kingdom, the other group, he chose to banish to a place of torment and death. He sent the handicapped, the weak and helpless, even innocent little children. Some were surely worthy of death, but not even the innocent were given a chance to even ask for mercy; he never allowed that. He had chosen to kill them all for his own pleasure and glory. He did receive his glory. Millions glorified him with cries of "Heil Hitler" and the place was Auschwitz.

One day, the Mighty King of the Universe, the Lord Jesus, will be glorified and part of His wonderful glory will be that when His enemies are judged, it will be proven without any doubt that He had truly and graciously extended His boundless love and mercy to every one of them, and that it was their own fault and no one elses that they rejected Him.. That will be, by far, the greater glory.

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Did God choose/elect Abraham & his seed?

Neh. 9:7Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

Deu. 7:6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deu. 14:2For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

1 Peter 2:9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

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That's funny coming from a guy who thinks God isn't going to keep His promises to Abraham.


Actually, Paul said that God has already fulfilled His promises to Abraham in Christ and the church.

For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. - 2 Corinthians 1:20


Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. - Galatians 3:16

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:28-29

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. - Romans 9:6-8
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Once upon a time, a great ruler chose a group of his subjects for his glorious kingdom, the other group, he chose to banish to a place of torment and death. He sent the handicapped, the weak and helpless, even innocent little children. Some were surely worthy of death, but not even the innocent were given a chance to even ask for mercy; he never allowed that. He had chosen to kill them all for his own pleasure and glory. He did receive his glory. Millions glorified him with cries of "Heil Hitler" and the place was Auschwitz.

One day, the Mighty King of the Universe, the Lord Jesus, will be glorified and part of His wonderful glory will be that when His enemies are judged, it will be proven without any doubt that He had truly and graciously extended His boundless love and mercy to every one of them, and that it was their own fault and no one elses that they rejected Him.. That will be, by far, the greater glory.

Can you explain that in terms of God choosing Abraham & his descendants for blessing out of all the population of the earth?
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Brother Al (I don't remember how to spell your name :) ) - the spiritual ones, yes, but not all of the promises are spiritual:

Genesis 13:14-17, "And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee."

Gen. 15:17-21, "And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. 18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."

And it was passed on to David as well. The promise is clearly about land, and Israel hasn't been at peace since Solomon.

II Sam. 7:10-13, "Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever."

Romans 11:25-29 makes it clear that while there is a spiritual Israel, there is also a physical, national Israel that is yet to recieve the promises.

Romans 11:25-29, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

Edited by Rick Schworer
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Can you explain that in terms of God choosing Abraham & his descendants for blessing out of all the population of the earth?


Abraham and his descendents were blessed so that ALL of the world could be blessed. They were chosen to fulfill a purpose but they were NOT chosen to salvation. Many Jews have been saved by grace through faith but there have always been many wicked Jews too . Each individual Jew has to get saved the same as anyone else. Furthermore, according to the Word of God, even backwoods, redneck countryboys like me can be children of Abraham!
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Abraham and his descendents were blessed so that ALL of the world could be blessed. They were chosen to fulfill a purpose but they were NOT chosen to salvation. Many Jews have been saved by grace through faith but there have always been many wicked Jews too . Each individual Jew has to get saved the same as anyone else. Furthermore, according to the Word of God, even backwoods, redneck countryboys like me can be children of Abraham!

Abraham & his family were chosen out of all the earth,so that 18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

That took 2000 years before the Seed finished his saving work & commissioned his Apostles to take the Gospel to the world. How many died in those 2,000 years as guilty sinners, without excuse but without a Gospel?

The wonder & universality of the LORD's reign is declared, but is Psalm 96 a Gospel call?

1O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth.
2Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day.
3Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people.
4For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
5For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.
6Honour and majesty are before him: strength and beauty are in his sanctuary.
7Give unto the LORD, O ye kindreds of the people, give unto the LORD glory and strength.
8Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come into his courts.
9O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.
10Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
11Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.
12Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
13Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth. Edited by Covenanter
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Abraham & his family were chosen out of all the earth,so that 18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

That took 2000 years before the Seed finished his saving work & commissioned his Apostles to take the Gospel to the world. How many died in those 2,000 years as guilty sinners, without excuse but without a Gospel?

The wonder & universality of the LORD's reign is declared, but is Psalm 96 a Gospel call?

1O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth.
2Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day.
3Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people.
4For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
5For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.
6Honour and majesty are before him: strength and beauty are in his sanctuary.
7Give unto the LORD, O ye kindreds of the people, give unto the LORD glory and strength.
8Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come into his courts.
9O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.
10Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
11Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.
12Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
13Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.


In order for someone to be "without excuse", there has to be a reason. Understand what I'm saying? The "Seed" was not only promised way back in Genesis, but He was alive and well. You can read about Him in John Chapter 1 He was only MANIFESTED a little over 2000 years ago but He was around and He was active... People called on the "name of the Lord" way back in Genesis 4. He is The "I Am" who spoke to Moses in the burning Bush. He was in the fiery furnace with the three Hebrew children and He is the one who David called "my Lord" in Psalm 110. We look back to the cross, they in the OT looked forward.
The reason unbelievers were "without excuse" is because God has revealed Himself to them.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
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