Calvinism on the March

[John81]

Once again I ask, prove your statement. Prove that Adrian Rogers spoke highly of Calvin. A quote please.

I gave you the only proof I have, he spoke highly of Calvin's Institutes in several of his sermons. His sermons are still aired on TV, radio and the internet if you care to listen until you hear one. As to a specific sermon title where he mentioned this, I don't know any of his sermon titles.

[Covenanter]

Quote from Brother Adrian please.
You will find it on God's Amazing Grace CD Album (CDA139)
1764 Don't Be A Disgrace To Grace
It was on the internet & I listened several times to make sure I wasn't misquoting him. True he was emphasising godly living, but Scripture maintains that Gospel grace transforms the sinner & does not leave a saved person free to live a filthy rotten life.

You know a half truth is still a lie sir.
f was a betting man, II would wager my lunch money that Adrian Rogers also metioned something about the "chastening hand of God";

The Bible teaches that a SAVED man has two natures and it teaches that the old nature, "the flesh" or the "old man" is just as wicked as he ever was. It teaches that "the flesh" wars against the Spirit and vise versa. A SAVED man is capable of doing anything a lost man is. The difference is, the man with the "new nature" does not have to sin. He can obey the command to walk in the Spirit. If he DOES NOT and lives after the flesh, like Brother Lot did, he can end up like Brother Lot did He sunk so low that he offered his precious daughters to a mob of perverts. he lost his beloved wife,lost his honor and respect, and then ended up in incest with his two daughters. The Bible clearly says that he was a just man....meaning that he was a believer. But all becuse he chose to pursure the world, he ended up with a ruined life. Yes, saved people can fall into sin, but is it worth the chastening hand of God or the destruction sin causes?
I am not lying - vicious insinuation. In the context of a simplistic "say this salvation prayer" gospel he was in effect giving a licence to continue to sin that grace may abound, destroying the intention of his sermon which was to promote godly living & reassuring lost sinners in his audience. I maintain that any supposed Christian who lives a filthy rotten life cannot be considered a child of God whatever decisions & prayers he might have made. That is NOT the Calvinistic doctrine of "Preservation & Perseverance of the elect."

[Covenanter]

How do you know? There may be many here that haven't talked about the matter before, at least with each other. You may have had enough of such conversations, but how can you say others won't value or learn something from the exchange? If you don't care for a conversation others are having, you are free to not read the posts. On the other hand, if your objection is that people are derailing the thread (post volume making discussion of the OP difficult), that's different, but I can't see that being the case at 10 posts per day.

If you still insist that others discuss nothing but the OP, will you, by way of an example, delete all of your own posts on this thread that are not strictly on the OP? There appear to be quite a few.

That's taking a line of reasoned post out of context. We could discuss specific points of "Calvinism" Reformed doctrine but the real point here is whether the doctrines nicknamed "Calvinism" are a threat to Biblical Christianity or are Biblical Christianity.

[Seth Doty]

I don't dispute that there are lots of verses in the Bible that suggest man has free will. I wasn't questioning the existence of such verses, I was raising what I see as a logical problem. How about we proceed with your questions, because they raise the same dilemma. You ask why God would be grieved about wickedness that he planned to begin with. I agree with your point--I don't see, logically, how that could work. But if we therefore say that God didn't plan the wickedness, it seems to me that we encounter another problem.

If God didn't plan the wickedness talked about in Gen 5:5, how did it happen? You say, "man used his own God-given creative ability to devise evil and man uses his God given will to go his own way and do what he wants."

Ok, so the cause of the wickedness is our God-given free will combined with our own desire--our wants. But as our 'wants' are a part of us, they must have in turn been created. So how did we get created with 'wants' (or desires) that are against God? I can think of these options:

1. God does not want to create free agents that have the desire to be against him, but they are all he is capable of creating.

2. God does not want to create free agents that have the desire to be against him, but someone other power obliges him to do so.

3. God does not want to create free agents that have the desire to be against him, but when he creates their desires, he is not sure how they will turn out.

4. God does not want to create free agents that have the desire to be against him, but He does not create their desires at all.

5. God wants to create free agents that have the desire to be against him, and does so.

Options 1 and 2 deny God's omnipotence. Option 3 denies his omniscience. Option 5 is the reformed position and Option 4 leaves us with the question: if God didn't create our desires (or characters or constitution or whatever you want to call it) then how did they come about?

Do you agree with my reasoning up to this point?

Carl

On the one hand:

"Psalm 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee."

"Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

"Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."

"James 1:13-16 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren."

On the other hand:

"Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."

"Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."

"Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."

"Matthew 10:29-31 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows."

"1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

I think in essence your question is how can mans free will and Gods sovereignty both be true. How could God still be sovereign without also being completely responsible for everything that happens including sin? Bottom line is that we do not and probably cannot completely understand how that all works yet the scriptures very clearly teach that sin is the very opposite of Gods character and never Gods perfect will, and man does have free will and genuine choices to make. Yet though these things are true somehow God is still sovereign and in control. Those are concepts that in our minds seem at odds with each other.

"Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

The question of how free will and Gods sovereignty can both be true probably comes under the category of Gods ways being as high above our ways as the heavens are above the earth... Edited November 6, 2011 by Seth-Doty

[John81]

On the one hand:

"Psalm 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee."

"Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

"Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."

"James 1:13-16 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren."

On the other hand:

"Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."

"Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."

"Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."

"Matthew 10:29-31 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows."

"1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

I think in essence your question is how can mans free will and Gods sovereignty both be true. How could God still be sovereign without also being completely responsible for everything that happens including sin? Bottom line is that we do not and probably cannot completely understand how that all works yet the scriptures very clearly teach that sin is the very opposite of Gods character and never Gods perfect will, and man does have free will and genuine choices to make. Yet though these things are true somehow God is still sovereign and in control. Those are concepts that in our minds seem at odds with each other.

"Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

The question of how free will and Gods sovereignty can both be true probably comes under the category of Gods ways being as high above our ways as the heavens are above the earth...

Which Spurgeon addressed long ago and that sermon has been posted here.

[Brother Rick]

A Christian can lose a lot of things, but he can't lose his salvation because it's kept by the power of God - not his own power.

If you can't earn it before you're saved, what would give someone the idea they could afterwards?

[Covenanter]

A Christian can lose a lot of things, but he can't lose his salvation because it's kept by the power of God - not his own power.

If you can't earn it before you're saved, what would give someone the idea they could afterwards?

Agreed - as Jonah said, "Salvation is of the LORD."

But salvation is evident by works, so if one has made a profession of salvation, said the prayer, been baptised, & begins to lead "a filthy rotten life" then the evidence is that he was never saved - a washed pig or dog.

²⁰For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
²¹For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
²²But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

[heartstrings]

Agreed - as Jonah said, "Salvation is of the LORD."

But salvation is evident by works, so if one has made a profession of salvation, said the prayer, been baptised, & begins to lead "a filthy rotten life" then the evidence is that he was never saved - a washed pig or dog.

²⁰For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
²¹For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
²²But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Tell me something, sir; have you EVER sinned ONE TIME since you made your profession of faith?Because if you did, YOU "Began" right then and there to "live a filthy rotten life". Furthermore, the passage you quoted isn't even talking about Christians in general; it is referring to false teachers, which is what YOU are doing when you promote Calvinism. Edited November 8, 2011 by heartstrings

[Brother Rick]

Agreed - as Jonah said, "Salvation is of the LORD."

But salvation is evident by works, so if one has made a profession of salvation, said the prayer, been baptised, & begins to lead "a filthy rotten life" then the evidence is that he was never saved - a washed pig or dog.

²⁰For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
²¹For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
²²But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

What about people who did show genuine fruit in their lives and really were saved, but as Demas they backslid in the end and never got right?

[Covenanter]

Tell me something, sir; have you EVER sinned ONE TIME since you made your profession of faith?Because if you did, YOU "Began" right then and there to "live a filthy rotten life".

I don't keep a list of sins - I know that I cannot love God & my neighbour as commanded, so all I do falls short of God's holy standard. However, if I deliberately stole, or murdered, or committed adultery in fact rather than in thought, then my salvation would be in doubt. If I blasphemed my Lord & Saviour & used foul language, I could not be a Christian, regardless of what had gone before in my life. True pastors would warn me in the words of Peter: ²¹Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
²²Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
²³For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.


Furthermore, the passage you quoted isn't even talking about Christians in general; it is referring to false teachers, which is what YOU are doing when you promote Calvinism.

Not true - the later part of the chapter is concerned with those deceived by the false teachers:
¹⁸For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
¹⁹While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

False teachers like Adrian Rogers get people "saved" without repentance & faith, so there may be a superficial change of character but not new birth or change of heart. A baptised pig remains a pig.

[Salyan]

I don't keep a list of sins - I know that I cannot love God & my neighbour as commanded, so all I do falls short of God's holy standard. However, if I deliberately stole, or murdered, or committed adultery in fact rather than in thought, then my salvation would be in doubt. If I blasphemed my Lord & Saviour & used foul language, I could not be a Christian, regardless of what had gone before in my life.

So if you committed adultery in thought but not in fact, it wouldn't count as sin? What makes the external sins worse than the internal ones?
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Edited November 8, 2011 by salyan

[heartstrings]

quote name='Covenanter' timestamp='1320769468' post='281587']

Tell me something, sir; have you EVER sinned ONE TIME since you made your profession of faith?Because if you did, YOU "Began" right then and there to "live a filthy rotten life".

I don't keep a list of sins - I know that I cannot love God & my neighbour as commanded, so all I do falls short of God's holy standard. However, if I deliberately stole, or murdered, or committed adultery in fact rather than in thought, then my salvation would be in doubt. If I blasphemed my Lord & Saviour & used foul language, I could not be a Christian, regardless of what had gone before in my life. True pastors would warn me in the words of Peter: ²¹Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
²²Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
²³For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.


Furthermore, the passage you quoted isn't even talking about Christians in general; it is referring to false teachers, which is what YOU are doing when you promote Calvinism.

Not true - the later part of the chapter is concerned with those deceived by the false teachers:
¹⁸For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
¹⁹While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

False teachers like Adrian Rogers get people "saved" without repentance & faith, so there may be a superficial change of character but not new birth or change of heart. A baptised pig remains a pig.

Sir, If you have entertained even ONE evil thought, even since you made your profession of faith, you are still a Hell deserving sinner.
You are mistaken: Verse 19, which you quoted, is still referring to the false teachers back in verse one.

False teachers like Adrian Rogers get people "saved" without repentance & faith,

Are you sure about that? Quote from brother Adrian please.

[Brother Rick]

I think this is a good example of how "preserverance of the saints" actually goes full circle and becomes Arminianism.

[John81]

I don't think anyone has said one can't sin if they are saved, but Scripture does tell us that living in sin won't be the evidence of those born again. There is a vast difference between the idea of "I've said a prayer, I'll go to heaven someday, I don't care about anything else so now I'm just going to live wild and satisfy my flesh" and one whose heart was seriously broken before God and is being led by the Holy Ghost to walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh.

Scripture also tells us that if a truly saved person does move into living a life of sin the Lord will chasten them until they repent. There is also sin that leads to death for the Lord will not have His own living a life of sin reproaching the name of Christ.

True salvation brings about a true change of heart and life. That doesn't mean one becomes perfect but their desire is towards the Lord and not themselves. Each grows in Christ at a different rate, but if they are born again they will be showing evidence of such rather than showing a life no different than before they claimed salvation.

[heartstrings]

False teachers like Adrian Rogers get people "saved" without repentance & faith, so there may be a superficial change of character but not new birth or change of heart. A baptised pig remains a pig.

A sermon outline apparently from Adrian Rogers

Salvation

Romans 10:1-13
(Program 2067DVD, Airing on 8-29)

1. INTRODUCTION
   
   2. Man’s greatest need is salvation. (Luke 19:10)
   3. Only two categories of people: saved and lost.
   4. Romans 10:1-4
      
      
   5. Salvation is not a reward for the righteous; it is a gift for the guilty.
   6. Many people will miss Heaven because they think they’ve not sinned.
   7. Philippians 3:4-7
   8. The worst form of human badness is human goodness, if human goodness keeps you from salvation.
   9. The law demands perfection; only the gospel gives perfection in the Lord Jesus Christ.
   10. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes. (Romans 10:4)
       
       
   11. Jesus Christ has already made the provision of salvation available to us through His incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection.
   12. Salvation is by God’s grace through faith.
   13. Confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. (Romans 10:9-10)
   14. Many people miss salvation by wanting Jesus as Savior only; He must also be Lord.
   15. Taking Jesus as Lord means taking yourself off the throne of your life and putting Jesus upon the throne of your life.
   16. If we are ashamed of Jesus, He will be ashamed of us. (Mark 8:38, Matthew 10:32-33)
       
       
   17. Anyone who turns to Jesus in repentance and faith will be saved.
   18. There’s no one so good they need not be saved and no one so bad they cannot be saved.
   19. God’s boundless resources are made available to those who call upon Him.
       
       

[*]THE FREENESS OF SALVATION [*]THE NEARNESS OF SALVATION (Romans 10:6-10) [*]THE RICHNESS OF SALVATION (Romans 10:12-13)