Members anime4christ Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 I usually avoid the Calvinism threads on this board because I often do tend to get sarcastic in these discussions eventually. I joined this forum before I became reformed though, and my first posts on Calvinism were those of curiosity. Followed by debates as I became convinced that this is what the Bible teaches and became solidified in the teaching. The debates helped me to see the flaws in my thinking and correct them. After a while though, my replies on the subject became more sarcastic. so I decided to avoid Calvinism for the most part on this board because I risked going overboard and it wouldn't be a very loving thing to do. Perhaps some of my comments may already seem that way to some. I apologize if that is so. I replied to the post on God's glory because I was appalled at what heartstrings seemed to be saying. However, my second post here did go overboard and I do apologize for that. The sarcasm in my second post was uncalled for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 I usually avoid the Calvinism threads on this board because I often do tend to get sarcastic in these discussions eventually. I joined this forum before I became reformed though, and my first posts on Calvinism were those of curiosity. Followed by debates as I became convinced that this is what the Bible teaches and became solidified in the teaching. The debates helped me to see the flaws in my thinking and correct them. After a while though, my replies on the subject became more sarcastic. so I decided to avoid Calvinism for the most part on this board because I risked going overboard and it wouldn't be a very loving thing to do. Perhaps some of my comments may already seem that way to some. I apologize if that is so. I replied to the post on God's glory because I was appalled at what heartstrings seemed to be saying. However, my second post here did go overboard and I do apologize for that. The sarcasm in my second post was uncalled for. Yes, and Heartstrings afterward clarified what he seemed to be saying in that post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members anime4christ Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 Your observation that in the Calvinist perspective (and I believe the Bible's) God's glory is God's main objective. That much is true, but I do not believe that to be a bad thing. Many non-Calvinists, though not all, will however not agree with me on this and I understand why you don't. Just to be fair, I just wanted to lay this out as it is. That is one real difference between Calvinists and those opposed to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) Every bit of God's glory has been earned by Him. You are incapable of willfullly loving or willfully glorifying the true God of the Bible until you realize what He has DONE for you and willfully trust Him as Savior. Predeternining people to hell for the glory of it is NOT the glory of the God of the Bible. End of story. There is no love in killing for pleasure. Sorry, wrong glory. Edited October 17, 2011 by heartstrings Wilchbla 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Rick Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 God creating people just so that He can toss them into Hell doesn't exactly fit well with the nature of God or the Bible. heartstrings 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 God creating people just so that He can toss them into Hell doesn't exactly fit well with the nature of God or the Bible. However one may look at it, God created man knowing he would sin, knowing the majority would reject Him and knowing that He would cast them into hell. That bothers a lot of people. Believing what Scripture says about God, it doesn't bother me. I trust God whether I understand this or other matters or not. anime4christ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Rick Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 However one may look at it, God created man knowing he would sin, knowing the majority would reject Him and knowing that He would cast them into hell. That bothers a lot of people. Believing what Scripture says about God, it doesn't bother me. I trust God whether I understand this or other matters or not. It doesn't bother me one bit. The reason being is that God doesn't force anyone to go Hell - if you believe in free will. If man doesn't have a free will, then God does make people to throw them into Hell. heartstrings 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 It doesn't bother me one bit. The reason being is that God doesn't force anyone to go Hell - if you believe in free will. If man doesn't have a free will, then God does make people to throw them into Hell. It wouldn't bother me either way because either way, God knew billions would be cast into hell and He chose this course for His own reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members anime4christ Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 Every bit of God's glory has been earned by Him. You are incapable of willfullly loving or willfully glorifying the true God of the Bible until you realize what He has DONE for you and willfully trust Him as Savior. Predeternining people to hell for the glory of it is NOT the glory of the God of the Bible. End of story. There is no love in killing for pleasure. Sorry, wrong glory. If that is so, then God was less glorious before creation than after. If God had to earn glory, then He was less glorious before (even not glorious at all at the beginning). Such a God is then dependent on His creation to become more or less glorious. The Bible does not teach that. God is already infinitely glorious. His intention to magnify His glory is not to gain more, but rather to display the full extent of the glory that He already has. This includes displaying His glory in love and in judgment. The Bible clearly says that. "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." - Eph 1:4-6 (His glory displayed in love) "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" - Romans 9:22-24 (His glory displayed in judgment) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Rick Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 It wouldn't bother me either way because either way, God knew billions would be cast into hell and He chose this course for His own reasons. Do you think God forced all those billions of people go to Hell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members anime4christ Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 It wouldn't bother me either way because either way, God knew billions would be cast into hell and He chose this course for His own reasons. John is right. In non-Calvinism, God creates people who He knows will never choose Him and He will damn them to Hell. In Calvinism, God creates people who He knows will never choose Him and He will damn them to Hell, but some of them, He chooses to save and take them to Heaven. Not much of a difference when it comes to creating people to send to Hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members anime4christ Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 Honestly, that is exactly how many non-Christians view God, and to some extent they are right. We don't need to justify God though; He is just Himself when He damns the sinner. The dilemma or "hard part", to put it that way, for God was to be able to justify the ungodly and remain just. The solution was to send His son to die for the ungodly and in that way justify them by imputing Jesus' righteousness to sinners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Rick Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 Correction: In Calvinism God creates people so that He can damn them without giving them another option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members anime4christ Posted October 17, 2011 Members Share Posted October 17, 2011 I disagree. I can tell you as a real Calvinist that Calvinists believe man does have a choice, but he will never choose God on his own, because he doesn't want to by nature. But either way you put it, you must still also the answer the same question that we have to: Why does God allow people whom He knows will never choose Him and whom He will damn to Hell to be born? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MatthewDiscipleOfGod Posted October 18, 2011 Members Share Posted October 18, 2011 (edited) I disagree. I can tell you as a real Calvinist that Calvinists believe man does have a choice, but he will never choose God on his own, because he doesn't want to by nature. But either way you put it, you must still also the answer the same question that we have to: Why does God allow people whom He knows will never choose Him and whom He will damn to Hell to be born? God isn't going to force anyone to choose him. He knows most will not even though he wills that all would choose him. God is gracious because he has given everyone the chance to be washed of their sins. He died for the sins of the world and I mean world as in every human. Edited October 18, 2011 by MatthewDiscipleOfGod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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