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John81

Drums

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As to your question - no. I don't like listening to drums by themselves. Anymore than I like to listen to ANY percussion instrument by itself. None of them are melodious instruments. They are not intended to stand alone - they are intended to accompany other instruments and give body to the sound.


What about hand bells, chimes, etc.? Those are percussion instruments yet almost anyone will agree that they can give a wonderful Christ honoring sound when played alone( as in a set of course, not just one).

Does the banging of cymbals alone uplift you? Put your mind and heart on a plane of worship preparedness or even worship? I sincerely doubt it.


If you are talking of ONE pair of cymbals "banging" by itself, no, I don't think you could even make a song with just one pair. However, if you are speaking of a set of many cymbals, like in handbells, yes, it can be fine stand alone.

The viol was an instrument with one string. Check out this site for some pictures: http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/Pictures/L-music.htm


Interesting. Do you know of any other pic's? unforunately that one looks pretty bad and I can't tell much. Is the body made out of skin, wood, or do you know?

A timpani is not at all like a rock and roll drum set. Neither is a snare drum.


I understand that a kettle drum isn't usually a "rock" drum(still believe they are wrong) but are not snare drums in nearly every typical rock and roll drum set? What exactly are you speaking of when you speak of a rock and roll drum set? I find it interesting that you seem to agree that certain types of drums are wrong but not others if I read you correctly. Why would some be ok but not all of them? :puzzled: I would think you would view drums as either completely ok or completely wrong...

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What about hand bells, chimes, etc.? Those are percussion instruments yet almost anyone will agree that they can give a wonderful Christ honoring sound when played alone( as in a set of course, not just one).



If you are talking of ONE pair of cymbals "banging" by itself, no, I don't think you could even make a song with just one pair. However, if you are speaking of a set of many cymbals, like in handbells, yes, it can be fine stand alone.



Interesting. Do you know of any other pic's? unforunately that one looks pretty bad and I can't tell much. Is the body made out of skin, wood, or do you know?



I understand that a kettle drum isn't usually a "rock" drum(still believe they are wrong) but are not snare drums in nearly every typical rock and roll drum set? What exactly are you speaking of when you speak of a rock and roll drum set? I find it interesting that you seem to agree that certain types of drums are wrong but not others if I read you correctly. Why would some be ok but not all of them? :puzzled: I would think you would view drums as either completely ok or completely wrong...


No, Seth, I don't view then as completely wrong or completely right. When I say drum set, I am talking about the type that Ringo Starr popularized. I don't have a problem with them, per se, in the right environment, but what I am talking about is in church. A drum set has no place in a church service. But if a church has an orchestra, there is nothing wrong with orchestral percussion instruments being included in the orchestra.

Yes, bells would sound well together - but that would be with different pitches...drums, cymbals, etc., don't have different pitches in and of themselves. One bell, alone, would not sound well. Two bells together wouldn't sound very much better. But add a third or more, and sound would be better.

Question for you - if bells, as percussion, are okay, why not some drums? You're puzzled about my acceptance of some, not others. I'm puzzled that you don't see the difference, really.

Seth - do you not like John Philips Souza music? There are orchestral drums in his music, and it adds to it. The thing is - if drums dominated and created the atmosphere of which you spoke earlier, i.e. violence, etc., they would be being misused. But if they are included in an orchestra which is playing God honoring music correctly, there is nothing wrong with them.

Again, I go back to what I said earlier. Drums are instruments (duh!! :Green ) in the hands of players. It is the player that defines the rightness or wrongness of the instrument - the heart attitude decides what is played and how it is played. That is what defines whether an instrument is right or not.

I've heard trumpets played by rock musicians and I've heard trumpets played in church by people who want to glorify God. Completely different sound. And I've heard bands that used drums for rock music. I've heard drums used in bands and orchestras that are seeking to glorify God. Completely different sound because the music itself is different - because of the players.

Here is a picture of a drum set:
http://www.germes-online.com/direct/dbi ... um_Set.jpg

A church that has a set or two of these is usually heavily into CCM. A rock beat seems to be the basis for what is played on one of these types of drums. Yes, this set includes a snare, but a single snare is usually associated with march music rather than rock.

Regarding the viol - I don't know for sure what it's made of. Most likely in Bible times it was made of skin rather than wood. I'm sure that later viols were made of wood. Can you imagine how it would sound? One string? I'm sure there had to be many to make any kind of music!

Gotta go...interesting discussion.

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Question for you - if bells, as percussion, are okay, why not some drums? You're puzzled about my acceptance of some, not others. I'm puzzled that you don't see the difference, really.


I am not against percussion as a class, I am against drums as a class. We see percussion instruments used for praising God in scripture, but we don't see any kind of drum used in that way. This in spite of the fact they were very common throughout the region during most of biblical history and are to this day. I realize the fact they are not mentioned is not "proof" of anything per se, but it would be odd if they were ok considering how many other instruments are mentioned and how common they were.


Seth - do you not like John Philips Souza music?


No.

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Can you imagine how it would sound? One string? I'm sure there had to be many to make any kind of music!

Even though there would be only one string there could also be many notes capable from that one string in the same fashion that a violin can produce many notes, sharped and flatted from just four strings. The following exerpt is from Wikipedia.

As the violin has no frets to stop the strings, the player must know exactly where to place the fingers on the strings to play with good intonation. Through practice and ear training, the violinist's left hand finds the notes intuitively by muscle memory. Beginners sometimes rely on tapes placed on the fingerboard for proper left hand finger placement, but usually abandon the tapes quickly as they advance

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Even though there would be only one string there could also be many notes capable from that one string in the same fashion that a violin can produce many notes, sharped and flatted from just four strings. The following exerpt is from Wikipedia.




Yes, I know the finger placement would make different sounds. But let's face it - it's the variety of strings and finger placements that make the instrument lovely. At least when other people play...I never made much pretty music with mine! :lol:

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Do you not like John Philips Sousa music? No.
Dude, you're missing out on some of the best patriotic music written by America's best-known composer. He served as conductor of the US Marine Corps Band during the early part of last century (He wrote the Marine Corpsand then the Navy Band around WWI. Known as the "March King," his music is heavy on drumbeats to keep the military folks marching in step, but it in no way incites the flesh.

Though he didn't invent it, he commissioned the development of the marching tuba called the sousaphone, which obviously bears his name.

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Dude, you're missing out on some of the best patriotic music written by America's best-known composer. He served as conductor of the US Marine Corps Band during the early part of last century (He wrote the Marine Corpsand then the Navy Band around WWI. Known as the "March King," his music is heavy on drumbeats to keep the military folks marching in step, but it in no way incites the flesh.

Though he didn't invent it, he commissioned the development of the marching tuba called the sousaphone, which obviously bears his name.

:thumb :thumb

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Dude, you're missing out on some of the best patriotic music written by America's best-known composer. He served as conductor of the US Marine Corps Band during the early part of last century (He wrote the Marine Corpsand then the Navy Band around WWI. Known as the "March King," his music is heavy on drumbeats to keep the military folks marching in step, but it in no way incites the flesh.

Though he didn't invent it, he commissioned the development of the marching tuba called the sousaphone, which obviously bears his name.


I am familiar with him.

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:thumb :thumb



And, might I repeat what you said, Chev1958..."but it in no way incites the flesh." That is the whole point. :amen:

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And, might I repeat what you said, Chev1958..."but it in no way incites the flesh." That is the whole point. :amen:


What I think needs to be noted is that John Phillips Sousas' music DOES incite the flesh! The music DOES want to make the military folks march in step - that is what "incite" means !

From Webster's 1828 Dictionary:

incite
INCI'TE, v.t. [L. incito; in and cito, to call, to stir up.]


1. To move the mind to action by persuasion or motives presented; to stir up; to rouse; to spur on.

Antiochus, when he incited Prusias to join in war, set before him the greatness of the Romans.

2. To move to action by impulse or influence.

No blown ambition does our arms incite.

3. To animate; to encourage.

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I personally think that drums are just fine in parades and for, as they say, "marching off to war", and in symphony orchestras, but NO drums in church please!!!!!!! Sorry, but if we see them on a church podium, we don't go back!!!!
CJP56

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I personally think that drums are just fine in parades and for, as they say, "marching off to war", and in symphony orchestras, but NO drums in church please!!!!!!! Sorry, but if we see them on a church podium, we don't go back!!!!
CJP56


:amen: :goodpost:

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I personally think that drums are just fine in parades and for, as they say, "marching off to war", and in symphony orchestras, but NO drums in church please!!!!!!! Sorry, but if we see them on a church podium, we don't go back!!!!
CJP56



I would agree with you, CJP56, if the drums were a drum set or bongos. But, truly, if you saw the timpani and snare in our orchestra and turned around and walked out - you'd be missing a big blessing! Not only is the music wonderful, but the preaching is scriptural and the fellowship is great. Besides which, our orchestra isn't front and center like praise bands are - the emphasis in our church is not on the instrument.

Janet - the inciting to the flesh that has been referenced is talking about lusting, violence, etc. Yes, march music causes one to want to march. But it doesn't incite the fleshly desires that rock music does.

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I am not talking about drums in a setting amongst a lot of other instruments that are not even visible from the pews. If your church is the one I am thinking of, we have been in your church LuAnne, back in the 90's. If the music is the same now as it was then, then that is fine. The music then was great. I am also not talking about bongo drums. I am talking about walking into a church and on the platform is a big ol' set of drums. NO thank you!!!! Those drums are played almost without exception in a rock music beat format, and we want nothing to do with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CJP56.

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I am not talking about drums in a setting amongst a lot of other instruments that are not even visible from the pews. If your church is the one I am thinking of' date=' we have been in your church LuAnne, back in the 90's. If the music is the same now as it was then, then that is fine. The music then was great. I am also not talking about bongo drums. I am talking about walking into a church and on the platform is a big ol' set of drums. NO thank you!!!! Those drums are played almost without exception in a rock music beat format, and we want nothing to do with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CJP56.[/quote']


I kinda thought that's what you meant...I think, really, it's what most people think of when they talk about drums in church. I go to Fairhaven, FYI. The music is the same now as it was then. Only now we have a lot more strings. Many of our students have learned violin and viola, cello, etc. In the '90's we had basically a band (not a rock one, folks!!!), but with the addition of the strings we became a full-fledged orchestra. :Green And the music is beautiful.

The orchestra actually has moved now. We expanded our building, so we expanded the platform. The orchestra sits in front of the choir now (although the choir is on raised steps), but we have a modestly railing - you can't see much of 'em!

I completely agree - drum sets and I'm outta there, too!

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i do. If you read my post, drums are the only instruments I can truly hear and feel. In a way, they remind me of thunders sometime.

That is truly interesting. I looooooooooooooooooooooove thunder and lightning and even simulate them sometimes on a small scale in my workshop with electronic apparati.

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Drums are the only instruments used to call evil spirits. They have no place in Holy Worship.

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Ephesians 5


10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.


11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.


12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

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That is truly interesting. I looooooooooooooooooooooove thunder and lightning and even simulate them sometimes on a small scale in my workshop with electronic apparati.

:uuhm: just like an engineer would say :lol

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Might as well throw my :2cents in.

Insturments are not bad, its how they are used. That case has been made and scripture shown.

My brother in law told an old man one day that he just loved the old hymn Amazing Grace. The old man replied, this song is not that old to me.

Christians must be careful of man made teachings here.

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Just as once the wearing of wire rimmed glasses was called worldly and sinnful, so are many things including drums.

I hear drums and electric guitars spoken against, then a Christian singing group will show up with electric insturments singing bluegrass style music, and I am told that is ok. Sounds double minded to me. (not calling anyone here double minded.) Just saying these contradictions are all around us. Good Godly men and women doing thier best to honor the Lord, may have different views on this.

The key is follow the Word of God and the leading of the Holy Ghost. The bible does not explain everything in clarity.

Not to hi-jack here but just use an example. We are told how to dress a certain way or we are not being Godly. Yet, if John the Baptist walked into our Churches today wearing his camel hair and bringing a honey comb to the potluck would he be welcome?

Just as people say "guns kill people", the truth is no they dont people kill people.

Drums are not evil. They can be used for evil. When used right they are God honoring. IF it is your Churches conviction not to have them in Church, then amen, stand strong, But that does not make them evil.

I rambled a little. Sorry for that. :smile

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If we walked into the mist where John the Baptist walked dressed in suit and ties I'n sure we would not be accepted, so in a way that is a mute point.

The thing about drums is many of us have seen the direction church have gone after accepting drums during their worship service, we don't want ours to go that direction, so we guard against it.

There are new songs that are probably out right now that are great songs, and would be accepted in many of the churches, represented here, but if its CCM, rap, blue grass, and such, forget it, I don't want it. I like to keep the world out and not go the way of the world.

Once a few years back the local Mennonites sang at a funeral service in our local large SBC Church, they got many compliments how great their singing was.

A Mennonite told me, If they would haul all of their electric musical instruments out of the church where they could in fact hear their own singing, they would find out that their singing was real good, the problem is they can't hear it for the loud music.

There is nothing under the sun that sounds better than 1, 2, 3, or how ever many, singing a good Christian Hymn with only the music of a piano. You don't need a bunch of loud music to sing praises to God in one of Jesus Churches.

And if a church is paying their musicians, that money could be put to a lot better use than paying musicians.

I remember years ago we had singers that would come once in a while, they used only the piano and how great they sounded.

Modern singers have to pull a trailer or 2 to haul all of their equipment and they do not sound as near good as those in earlier times did.

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Good post Jerry

I think you missed my point on John the Baptist but thats ok.

I agree with what you have said, im just saying drums are not wrong. It, like any other insturment, including the human voice is only wrong when used wrong.

Sound boards have volume controls. It just that some do not want to or do not know how to use them correctly. :smile

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What is a timbrel?

Same thing as a tambourine...a percussion instrument, like drums. Percussion instruments held keep the count in an orchestra. And they add more beauty to already beautiful music.

I agree, Jerry, that loud music can detract from the words of a song - especially if it is done in the modernistic way so many churches now favor. Even with our beautiful orchestra, if it's playing at full tilt and only one person is singing, that would be very overwhelming. But it sure does enhance the congregational singing!

There's nothing in scripture that says every church has to use the same instruments. If the church people only want a piano, that's fine. I'm just glad we have a full orchestra. Our auditorium is actually quite large, so the music, with the singing, really swells to the rafters. It's lovely!

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http://www.bibleplus.org/music/music.htm

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/music.html


Do a bit of reading.

I thought I got the point on John the Baptist. That said, I don't believe I have ever seen anyone turned away from church because of the way they were dressed or for what they brought to pot luck.

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