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John81

Drums

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Boy...I can see all sides to this issue. Personally, I don't like drums. It brings up things from my past---which are NOT Godly b/c I wasn't saved. The point is..."that scripture saves us---not music." If they are used improperly, then---yeah,they are inappropriate!! Scripture back this up. :thumb

Great posts, by LuAnne and Bakers. Right on---ladies. :clap:

BTW, for those that don't know---(I am sure that most do) LuAnne attends one of the most beautiful IFB churches in this nation, IMHO. It is ever so glorifying to the Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit speaks of that! :amen:

I had to "edit" appropriate to inappropriate. Ooops.

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Those who use Gaither, CCC, the big loud beat type music claim their music is uplifting, but claim those who do not use it is not uplifting.

To many churches are more about music, entertainment, than they are presenting the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is what modern music is doing to churches in 2008. If it has not reached a church near you, don't worry, its coming, maybe even to the church you now attend, the music lovers will see to it.



I have seen the "Gaithers" almost twice in my life. I say that b/c at their second Concert in Cleveland...my hubby and son got sick, and we had to leave. Personally, I don't care for them. They are too worldly for my tastes.

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IM - you are right, musical instruments shouldn't turn services into entertainment.
But you are wrong that drums are never to be used. You have no scripture to back this up, you have only your opinion.

The Bible does not give us permission to use a piano, either. There are stringed instruments, yes. And that is what the piano is. But there are percussion instrements, also. The timbral is mentioned...and yet, hippies really made use of tambourines (which are pretty much similar).

Balance. Balance. Godliness of the music is not determined by the instruments used. It is determined by the music itself and the users of those instruments.

Those who use Gaither, CCC, the big loud beat type music claim their music is uplifting, but claim those who do not use it is not uplifting.

To many churches are more about music, entertainment, than they are presenting the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is what modern music is doing to churches in 2008. If it has not reached a church near you, don't worry, its coming, maybe even to the church you now attend, the music lovers will see to it.


Agreed, mostly. But I can guarantee it's not coming to our church, nor is it here. Our music is very scriptural, and I'm sure you would even like it. :Green

candle - I hear you! I was into drums as a teen...but I guarantee you the way that our orchestra is directed and the way music is played, there would be no drawing you back to your previous life. And thanks for your kind words about our church. The bulk of our membership is very concerned with being right with God and glorifying Him in our lives...even our music.

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Balance. Balance. Godliness of the music is not determined by the instruments used. It is determined by the music itself and the users of those instruments.


:amen: LuAnne!

candle - I hear you! I was into drums as a teen...but I guarantee you the way that our orchestra is directed and the way music is played' date=' there would be no drawing you back to your previous life. And thanks for your kind words about our church. The bulk of our membership is very concerned with being right with God and glorifying Him in our lives...even our music.[/quote']

Please pray for me with this issue---LuAnne. Thanks in advance.

Your welcome, about the "kind words." Keep on "being right with God and glorifying Him." I think it is time for me to break out your church, Christmas---CD music. :thumb

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Well, I prayed about how the Lord would have me address this while I was working at work today and while I could talk about the historical use of drums in the worship of Molech, the "sound of war" Joshua heard when he and Moses came down from the mount, etc. the Lord showed me that if I simply made a "standard" argument I would convince or help no one but those who were already convinced and merely harden those who desired to believe otherwise. At any rate, I believe this is what the Lord has led me to say.

I say this in the hope that it will administer grace to the hearers, and it is a general statement not aimed at anyone in particular...

"Hebrews 5:13-14 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

As I am sure everyone on this thread knows, drums are not directly mentioned in the bible. Now, because of this, one of the primary arguments of their supporters is that drums are neither good or evil. It is said to simply be an issue of personal preference due to the fact scripture contains no verse which states "Thou shalt not use drums".

However, things that the Lord directly condemns by name are only on level one so to speak. Milk. It takes absolutely zero maturity or discernment to see that the Lord does not approve of murder for example. Even a spiritual infant can understand this. Why? because "thou shalt not kill" is spelled out in no uncertain terms. Now, milk is certainly good at all stages of growth, BUT it is not all there is to eat in either our physical or spiritual life.

The problem arises when the spiritual infant never matures beyond a strictly milk diet. Indeed, many such individuals will challenge the fact that there is even such a thing as spiritual meat, for they failed to ever grow beyond milk, and so scarcely understand meat at all. Have you ever seen a very young baby with some "adult" food? I am sure we all have at some point. Anyway, you will then know that very often young children will fail to either understand or properly use "adult" food should they get a hold of some. How often will the child rub the food in their hair, all over their face, play with it, mouth it, possibly swallow some of it, and then just outright reject it? Such is often the case with the spiritually immature when they are faced with spiritual meat. Milk is the limit of their understanding. They cannot understand that many things are revealed to the more mature believers by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. To many, the "Spirit" is either the often devilish workings that so many Charismatics become entangled in, or it is a cover for personal opinion. Although few will admit this, secretly, they cannot comprehend the Spirit as a literal, knowable, completely trustworthy person who is completely capable of guiding the believer in an extremely exact manner, and revealing truths as needed along every step of the Christian life.

To them this verse is merely an abstract ideal rather than a firm concrete reality proved out in exacting ways every day:

"Psalm 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye."

Now the only way anyone can ever grow to where they can begin to use meat is by taking and using their milk. The milk doesn't do the child any good sitting in the bottle even if the child is holding the bottle in his hands. You have to drink that milk, take it in, and let it become part of you. Then you WILL grow guaranteed. There are far to many long time Christians in the churches who have the milk, know what it is, can quote it, etc., yet they never took it in, never used it, never truly let it become part of them. It is still sitting in the bottle. As such many remain spiritual babies with a reasonable amount of head knowledge, but little or no real spiritual growth. They will still generally choke on meat should they stumble on some(God will not freely offer it to them because they didn't use the milk). They can convince new converts that they are mature because of their head knowledge, but their lives, responses, attitudes, and actions will reveal that it isn't truly part of them. Such individuals are not walking in the spirit, they don't even understand what that means, but they will commonly use the term because it is part of "sounding" like a mature Christian. The fruit will reveal the truth however.

Unfortunately "liberal" churches do not have a monopoly on this type of Christian.

Now I am going to quote a handful of verses having nothing to do with drums directly on the milk level. I believe they have application on this issue through the working of the Spirit in the heart but you can take them or leave them as the Spirit allows. They certainly will help no one on this issue without the working of the Spirit.


"Exodus 34:12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:"

"Judges 2:3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you."

"Isaiah 2:5-8 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD. Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers. Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots: Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:"

And then I will post a few links to pro-drum articles and quote bits of them:

The side that we hesitate to admit quite often is, what if drums are just not going to fit in here? What if the average attendee is 75, the choir director is George Beverly Shea, and the church is all wood pews, walls, rails - concrete floor, and a HIGH wooden arched ceiling? Stop for a moment and think, what is our calling? To find the best ways possible to lift up praise and adoration to our Saviour...., and to do nothing from empty conceit. If it won't work, at least at this time, don't beat a dead horse with a Pro-Mark nylon tip 7a stick...maybe nothing will ever work here that is different. Perhaps hand percussion could add a little spice / shakers, congas, etc... Start easy, and help the others in the congregation see what you are attempting to do. Perhaps take them to a place where they can talk to and listen to some contemporary praise. Maybe they have never experienced anything like that before. Don't alienate them on the first try by bringing your whole rig in and deafening them at the outset. Remember, drums LOOK loud. Go easy, don't try to go from 150 years of choir anthems to jamming rock and roll praise. It will NOT fly.



http://www.worshipworld.com/drumwshp.htm

One of the sweeping changes that occurred in contemporary Christian churches around 1993 was the integration of personal expressions of praise. It signaled the arrival of praise music that celebrated individual experiences, inspiring congregants to participate in church services in some surprising new ways.
This was a sharp departure from the traditional services where silence was ordained except during prayer recitation and the singing of traditional hymns. Congregants in contemporary churches were introduced to the acoustic world-music sound of African drums.

Here?s what one pastor had to say, ?We wanted to do a worship renewal project that would unite the congregations in our community. We thought about this question: If we put aside the theology, what unites us? It?s our heartbeat. We all have that in common. And 90 percent of cultures have a drum beat?.


http://www.shurenotes.com/how9/article.html

What is the role of percussion, and the percussionist, in the worship band setting?

In some ways, the answer to this depends on whether the worship band in question has a drummer. If a percussionist is playing as the only source of "rhythm" (I use "quotes" because some pianists-guitarists-bassist will tell you that they provide the rhythm as well - we know better!), then our role is to rhythmically support the song. We add much needed dynamic changes to help create a "feel" or "groove." However, above all this is our real need to understand that we are helping people to connect with God, and in order to do so we must be sensitive. If we are playing with a drummer, then we can add new flavors and textures to bring life to songs. I find it a joy to work with a good percussionist if I am playing the drumkit, as we can both support and work with each other.

What is the most common mistake you see percussionists make?

Like any musician, the most common mistake percussionists make is over-playing. There are often times in worship when tinkling around on some random items of percussion can be a real distraction. Music needs space, so keep an ear and eye out for musical changes, and for how the congregation is responding. There is no point in beating insanely on a large djembe during a quiet reflective song in ministry time! This sounds like obvious advice, but I speak from experience!



http://www.insideworship.com/resources/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2180&Itemid=29

Finally, Use the discernment of the Holy Spirit. He that hath an ear, let him hear. :Green

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Seth, I have been chewing the meat of God's word since before you were born! If I come to a church for a visit and I see a set of bongo drums somewhere near the altar area of a church, I will quietly and politely excuse myself from that service. That is just me, and I do not expect anyone else in that congregation to follow me out the door, but you better believe I will not stay. If they are wrong about that, I am sure there are plenty of other things that church is wrong about too - including all the women in that congregation wearing pantsuits and bobbed hair to the praise service, the lack of KJV Bibles, the over the top multi- media presentation tht is a real crowd pleaser, etc. etc. etc.

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I know you did not go into this, but I don't think "the "sound of war" Joshua heard when he and Moses came down from the mount" was drums. If you will look at the context

Exodus 32:17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.

Exodus 32:18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.


I see no drums or any other kind of instument here. Am I missing something???

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I know you did not go into this' date=' but I don't think "the "sound of war" Joshua heard when he and Moses came down from the mount" was drums. If you will look at the context

I see no drums or any other kind of instument here. Am I missing something???


One of my old IFB Pastors tried this approach to "dividing" the Word of God as well. This is clearly not what the Scriptures were talking about!

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Amazing to me what members of a IFBC accept and defend. But maybe everyone is not a IFBC member.

If someone wants to have drums in their church, that's OK with me, but respect me and my church's belief on the matter.

As for us we have many doubts about it being proper, when there is the least bit of doubt, don't do it.

Like IM4GIVEN, if I entered a church to worship and saw a set of drums, I to would politely turn around and walk out. There are many things that we should not do nor should the child of God partake that does not have a "thou shalt not do" any where on the pages of the Bible, but a child of God who has been into the meat of the word knows they should not partake of it.

The thing is now in modern 2008 way to many people have become accepting of way to many things. look around you just a bit, you can see the effects of it on many people.

The big SBC Church in town is sponsoring a meal with Santa Claus, all children are invited to come eat with Santa, after wards they can set in his lap and tell him what they want him to bring them for Christmas, after which the church will take a picture of them with Santa and give it to them. Would not surprise me the least bit if in another 10 to 15 years many of the IBFC's will be doing the same thing. Reason I say that is for 20 years ago the people of this SBC would not have let it happened. But with the influx of CCC, along with rock music, drums, and such, it has led to this. Might add, 20 years ago they would not of joined together and worship with all those churches that teach works based salvation neither.

[marquee]Warning: Caution: Warning: Caution:[/marquee]

It happens very slowly, it creeps in on you, before you know it your into it, the world is fully in the church, and worships service is not fully about God and our Savior.

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Amazing to me what members of a IFBC accept and defend. But maybe everyone is not a IFBC member.

If someone wants to have drums in their church, that's OK with me, but respect me and my church's belief on the matter.

As for us we have many doubts about it being proper, when there is the least bit of doubt, don't do it.

Like IM4GIVEN, if I entered a church to worship and saw a set of drums, I to would politely turn around and walk out. There are many things that we should not do nor should the child of God partake that does not have a "thou shalt not do" any where on the pages of the Bible, but a child of God who has been into the meat of the word knows they should not partake of it.

The thing is now in modern 2008 way to many people have become accepting of way to many things. look around you just a bit, you can see the effects of it on many people.

The big SBC Church in town is sponsoring a meal with Santa Claus, all children are invited to come eat with Santa, after wards they can set in his lap and tell him what they want him to bring them for Christmas, after which the church will take a picture of them with Santa and give it to them. Would not surprise me the least bit if in another 10 to 15 years many of the IBFC's will be doing the same thing. Reason I say that is for 20 years ago the people of this SBC would not have let it happened. But with the influx of CCC, along with rock music, drums, and such, it has led to this. Might add, 20 years ago they would not of joined together and worship with all those churches that teach works based salvation neither.

[marquee]Warning: Caution: Warning: Caution:[/marquee]

It happens very slowly, it creeps in on you, before you know it your into it, the world is fully in the church, and worships service is not fully about God and our Savior.


I, for one, am not trying to tell you what you must accept. Telling people they are wrong and the proof is that they are to immature to understand why, to me is telling them they must accept your standards. I also realize that things in this world are getting worse, and it is creeping into the churches. Sometimes running into the churches!! But I for one do not see the proper use of drums as being one of them. I was pretty much raised that you only used a piano and an organ in church. Nothing else. Only the modern liberal churches had drums, guitars, or any other kind of instrument. But where is there any Biblical proof of this. The psalms are filled with verious instuments. But go back a few years past that 20 you are mentioning and churches only wanted there piano and organ inspite the fact the psalms say to use many differant instuments. Go to some Baptist churches and they will say that even the piano and organ are wrong and can trace thier belief back a couple of hundred years at least. We need to stand strong in the scriptures. When there is a command to abstain, we must abstain. Drums seem evil to you, so you abstain. But should those who see the piano as a bar room instrument tell you that you are immature for having it in your church. You have not been on the meat long enough to realize that the bar room instrument has no place in the worship of God?? Where would the proof be??? As an end note I will say that in the church I attend we have a piano, and a organ. No drums or other instuments.

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I, for one, am not trying to tell you what you must accept. Telling people they are wrong and the proof is that they are to immature to understand why, to me is telling them they must accept your standards. I also realize that things in this world are getting worse, and it is creeping into the churches. Sometimes running into the churches!! But I for one do not see the proper use of drums as being one of them. I was pretty much raised that you only used a piano and an organ in church. Nothing else. Only the modern liberal churches had drums, guitars, or any other kind of instrument. But where is there any Biblical proof of this. The psalms are filled with verious instuments. But go back a few years past that 20 you are mentioning and churches only wanted there piano and organ inspite the fact the psalms say to use many differant instuments. Go to some Baptist churches and they will say that even the piano and organ are wrong and can trace thier belief back a couple of hundred years at least. We need to stand strong in the scriptures. When there is a command to abstain, we must abstain. Drums seem evil to you, so you abstain. But should those who see the piano as a bar room instrument tell you that you are immature for having it in your church. You have not been on the meat long enough to realize that the bar room instrument has no place in the worship of God?? Where would the proof be??? As an end note I will say that in the church I attend we have a piano, and a organ. No drums or other instuments.


You post reminds me of a gospel song about "Where we gonna put the piano?" - it is a song a bout how a church went over board about the gift of a piano that led them to do some very un-Christlike things.

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I, for one, am not trying to tell you what you must accept. Telling people they are wrong and the proof is that they are to immature to understand why, to me is telling them they must accept your standards. I also realize that things in this world are getting worse, and it is creeping into the churches. Sometimes running into the churches!! But I for one do not see the proper use of drums as being one of them. I was pretty much raised that you only used a piano and an organ in church. Nothing else. Only the modern liberal churches had drums, guitars, or any other kind of instrument. But where is there any Biblical proof of this. The psalms are filled with verious instuments. But go back a few years past that 20 you are mentioning and churches only wanted there piano and organ inspite the fact the psalms say to use many differant instuments. Go to some Baptist churches and they will say that even the piano and organ are wrong and can trace thier belief back a couple of hundred years at least. We need to stand strong in the scriptures. When there is a command to abstain, we must abstain. Drums seem evil to you, so you abstain. But should those who see the piano as a bar room instrument tell you that you are immature for having it in your church. You have not been on the meat long enough to realize that the bar room instrument has no place in the worship of God?? Where would the proof be??? As an end note I will say that in the church I attend we have a piano, and a organ. No drums or other instuments.


We have a verse in the Bible that many people never heed.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

1 Thess 5:22 (KJV)

To rightly abstain for all appercanes of evil many times we have to avoid many things that are not a sin. But in modern America to many people have the attitude, I'll do what I want to do, when I want to, how I want to, its between me and God, besides there is no sin in what I do.

But its so hard for us to follow these verses.

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 12:1-2 (KJV)

We love to imitate the world and let it influence us more than God, Jesus, or the Word.

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Romans 14:13 (KJV)

And many of us will not give up nor stop doing many things even if it does cause someone to stumble, after all we are going to make full use of our liberty that has been given to us ignoring 1 Thess 5:22 and 1 Corinthians 8:9.

Yes, I understand well many can't see it. But there are many examples in our world where it has led many churches.

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Jerry8 - if you believe that your church would be wrong having anything other than a piano, that's fine. But, since the Bible is replete with mention of many instruments, including percussion, in praise of the Lord, you need to extend that same grace to others.

IM4 - if I went into a church that had bongo drums, I don't think I'd stay for the service either. Why? Because I would be relatively sure that they would be used in a worship band, and I want no part of that.

Seth - I have to say that stating that people are spiritually immature because they don't agree with you about all drums being bad sounds rather spiritually prideful, to me. I would agree that simply stating that the Bible doesn't forbid it is a weak answer - one that would allow for many problem areas. But the thing is: the Bible encourages praising the Lord with instruments - and lists many. Percussion instruments are included in the lists - and that is what drums are.

Now, please note that I am not advocating the modern so called worship groups that many churches have today. I'm agin them because they very much bring the world into the church. But when a church has an orchestra that includes a couple of drums (as well as other percussion instruments), there is no sin in that UNLESS they are playing music that does not glorify God.

And let me tell you - if anyone walked into our church and saw the drums (they probably wouldn't really, because none of the instruments are front and center because that is not our emphasis) and walked out because of it, they would miss out on a blessing. Not only in the music, but in the preaching and in the fellowship.

If you don't want to have drums in your church, or attend a church that does - fine, great. That is your choice. But if the drums are not part of a worldly presentation in the church, I believe you are walking a fine line trying to say that said church is ungodly.

I don't worship my preacher by any means. We've been here almost 20 years, and we know he's as human as the rest of us. But I also know that he sets a very high standard in our music program. If there were a scriptural problem with drums, they wouldn't be in our church.
Again - no bongo drums would ever be allowed, but orchestral drums aren't wrong.

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If you don't want to have drums in your church, or attend a church that does - fine, great. That is your choice. But if the drums are not part of a worldly presentation in the church, I believe you are walking a fine line trying to say that said church is ungodly.

I don't worship my preacher by any means. We've been here almost 20 years, and we know he's as human as the rest of us. But I also know that he sets a very high standard in our music program. If there were a scriptural problem with drums, they wouldn't be in our church.
Again - no bongo drums would ever be allowed, but orchestral drums aren't wrong.



:amen::goodpost: Sister!

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Seth - I have to say that stating that people are spiritually immature because they don't agree with you about all drums being bad sounds rather spiritually prideful, to me.


I can't say I blame you for thinking that. Matter of fact, when I proof read it before posting my first thought was that if I post this I am going to come across as a more holy than thou stuffed shirt. :wink All I can say is that is really not the case. You can believe that or not as you choose but I do believe that was what the Lord had for me to post and I don't feel any regrets over it...

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Seth, not matter how you dice it, what you posted doesn't really address the topic.

You stated previously worshiping with drums is wrong yet you have really put forth nothing to back this statement.

I know that drums have been used in worshiping various false gods, but so have many other instruments. Where does the Bible condemn drums.

A couple of folks here have made some good posts, with Scripture, to indicate why drums are not evil and how they can be used rightly. Do you have something to offer that would refute this?

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Ok folks, possible dead end rabbit trail, possible new info. I need some help re-searching something if anyone can help me with this in some way. Here is the question. What is a biblical viol? I know what a viol is in modern english but according to what I have read what we now call a viol wasn't invented until at least around the 14th century. I was praying and asking the Lord how to best answer Johns latest post since to my knowledge drums were not mentioned in scripture yet the Lord had clearly revealed to me that they were wrong. I was praying for guidance from the scriptures as well. Anyway, the Lord impressed me to seach the scriptures for "noise" in relation to music. I did, and two verses stood out to me.

"Isaiah 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee."

"Amos 5:23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols."

Now I know what a viol is today, a stringed instrument, not even close to a drum, but I still felt drawn to those verses.

looking at the strongs(which is usually good but of course not perfect) definition of the word translated "viol" I find:

5035.
lbn nebel, neh'-bel; or nebel {nay'-bel}; from 05034; a skin-bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty); hence, a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form):--bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol.

So, looking at the definition of the root word I find:

lbn nabel, naw-bale'; a primitive root; to wilt; generally, to fall away, fail, faint; figuratively, to be foolish or (morally) wicked; causatively, to despise, disgrace:--disgrace, dishounour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought,

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This is not directly about drums, but in a round about way could hit on them. I have always been taught, as I feel most if not all of us believe, that loud music has no place in the worship of God. It is the singing that needs to be heard. The music simply gives a place for the singer or singers to follow. It is not to be overwhelming. That is one of the objections to drums, they are loud and take over. Anyway, I would like to know, while we are talking about music, what are everyones thoughts on this verse:

2 Chronicles 30:21 And the children of Israel that were present at Jerusalem kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with great gladness: and the Levites and the priests praised the LORD day by day, singing with loud instruments unto the LORD.
It seems in the context that the children of Israel are getting right with the Lord. But the writer says loud. Something that we would say was out of place. And yet they are not rebuked for it.

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We have a verse in the Bible that many people never heed.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

1 Thess 5:22 (KJV)

To rightly abstain for all appercanes of evil many times we have to avoid many things that are not a sin. But in modern America to many people have the attitude, I'll do what I want to do, when I want to, how I want to, its between me and God, besides there is no sin in what I do.

But its so hard for us to follow these verses.

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 12:1-2 (KJV)

We love to imitate the world and let it influence us more than God, Jesus, or the Word.

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Romans 14:13 (KJV)

And many of us will not give up nor stop doing many things even if it does cause someone to stumble, after all we are going to make full use of our liberty that has been given to us ignoring 1 Thess 5:22 and 1 Corinthians 8:9.

Yes, I understand well many can't see it. But there are many examples in our world where it has led many churches.


You quoted my reply, so I assume you were speaking to it. I considered 1 Thess 5:22 as I wrote my post. And yes, I agree we, as christians need to abstain from much more than we do. But, if you will look at IMForgivn's post, it sounds like she sees using pianos in church as appearing evil. I know for a fact some do. Does this mean we must throw out the pianos?? There was a time that an IFB would not allow a TV in their home. Called antanaes devils horns. They appeared evil. Does that mean we are wrong in having a TV in our home??? (Side note, if TV is wrong because of the immoral things on it, which are plenty, why do we accept these internet computers that multiply the immorality by a hundred fold!!!) My point is you cannot single out a certain thing and say it is wrong because it appears evil to you, and that I should stay away from it. But ignore what I see as evil and say since you know better I should not worry about it. It appears evil to you, you should and must stay away from it. But my main point was that as you stay away from it just incase it is evil, don't tell others that they are immuture or they too would stay away from it. If it can be shown in scripture that it is wrong, then it is immuturity to not stay away.

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I don't know as there is anything morally wrong with volume levels. Trumpets for example are pretty much always going to be fairly loud, cymbals are usually loud, yet the Lord clearly approves of them. I think it has more to do with the message each instrument is able to put out. I think the message a drum puts out is always wrong. You can feel it in the music. Yes I know that isn't something that you can quantify, but it is true.


Just curious, but does anyone here who likes drums ever feel that listening to a drum playing by itself without words or other instruments is uplifting and positive?

The reason I ask is the lost people I work with will readily admit that the drums in their music make them feel excited and on edge, but also little bit violent. Of course they like that and say so, my flesh feels the same thing, but my spirit doesn't like it one bit. It feels evil. I have never felt that with either cymbals or trumpets, both loud instruments that I can and do enjoy, assuming the music is good.

There was a time that an IFB would not allow a TV in their home.


That still happens. :Green You have to admit unless you stick to carefully selected videos, a large part of what you are going to see is going to be wrong. I am sure there are a few good things you can see, but those things are few and far between.

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Seth, John is right in one respect, no matter who you said it, it would not come off right to some. As for me, I understand where your coming from.

Even Jesus had that problem too. That problem is alive and well today.

My view, there are some thing we should resist, not because they are sin, but because where they lead and what they may stand for. But some simply will not do this, they will do it or bust.

Them some will have done it, and never saw it developed into a problem, so they think that means its completely OK.

In saying this I am not putting down no one, nor do I mean to offend anyone, but I am stating it frank and straight forward.

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Just curious, but does anyone here who likes drums ever feel that listening to a drum playing by itself without words or other instruments is uplifting and positive?


i do. If you read my post, drums are the only instruments I can truly hear and feel. In a way, they remind me of thunders sometime.

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Just curious, but does anyone here who likes drums ever feel that listening to a drum playing by itself without words or other instruments is uplifting and positive?


Seth - I almost think we are talking at cross purposes here. I do believe that you are thinking of drum sets like rock bands use. Maybe not. Maybe you are thinking of every single kind of drum there is.

A timpani is not at all like a rock and roll drum set. Neither is a snare drum. When they are used in an orchestra, there is not the inciting to violence feeling that accompanies songs that use drum sets, or even songs that may just use a snare drum to pound and pound and pound. There is a major difference. Major. I'm truly sorry you can't see that.

As to your question - no. I don't like listening to drums by themselves. Anymore than I like to listen to ANY percussion instrument by itself. None of them are melodious instruments. They are not intended to stand alone - they are intended to accompany other instruments and give body to the sound. Cymbals, which you stated that God liked (and I agree), included. Does the banging of cymbals alone uplift you? Put your mind and heart on a plane of worship preparedness or even worship? I sincerely doubt it. And, really, drum sets contain cymbals (albeit struck by the drum stick rather than another cymbal, still - a cymbal is a cymbal!), so maybe cymbals shouldn't be allowed...

As to your question about viol - one part of the definition you gave included psaltery...and that is an instrument that the Bible specifically names in a positive light. The viol was an instrument with one string. Check out this site for some pictures: http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/Pictures/L-music.htm

You quoted:

"Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands."

"Amos 6:5-7 That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of music, like David; That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. Therefore now shall they go captive with the first that go captive, and the banquet of them that stretched themselves shall be removed."

Note in Isaiah that, even if the viol was a type of drum, it is not the only instrument mentioned...others that are later listed as instruments of praise are, too. These verses don't seem to me to be condemning instruments, per se. In both of them, even reading the verses surrounding them, it seems that God is talking about Israel not being right with Him. Inventing instruments wouldn't be a sin - God included the fact that David did it...and David was a man after God's own heart. Yes, a sinner, but he pleased God with his music.

I personally feel that some of you are trying to stretch this a little too far. Yes, separation from the world is a vital. And, although most of you have never met me, I can guarantee that I am very separate. But, first and foremost is our relationship to the Lord. I think we all agree on that.


I think it's interesting that you, Seth, have unequivocally stated that God has shown you drums are wrong, so there is no other way. I respect you greatly, I really do. I believe that your heart is soft to the Lord. And I respect you, Jerry8. You have a lot of wisdom, and you have a lot of life experience to boot. And Janet, I do believe that you love the Lord with your whole heart. My hat is off to all 3 of you. If you believe firmly that drums are wrong, then good.

The problem comes in when you try to make those who don't agree with you seem to be unspiritual, or immature Christians, or even carnal Christians who are blinded to the fact that the world is invading the church. That simply isn't so.

I would agree with you that drum sets (and bongos, Janet) have no place in a church setting. But if the Lord has led the pastor of that church to have an orchestra, and that orchestra includes orchestral percussion instruments - including timbrels (tambourines...even though hippies used them!), cymbals (even though they are included on drum sets), triangles, timpani and snare drums, etc., then you are treading in dangerous territory trying to insinuate that said church and pastor are going the way of the world. Better be careful.

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Just curious, but does anyone here who likes drums ever feel that listening to a drum playing by itself without words or other instruments is uplifting and positive?

The reason I ask is the lost people I work with will readily admit that the drums in their music make them feel excited and on edge, but also little bit violent. Of course they like that and say so, my flesh feels the same thing, but my spirit doesn't like it one bit. It feels evil. I have never felt that with either cymbals or trumpets, both loud instruments that I can and do enjoy, assuming the music is good.



I don't know if I fit in the "likes drums" category, but I've heard several military pieces where the drum plays solo that I found very uplifting and positive.

Back in my teens when I listened to rock music it really wasn't the drums that would get me going but rather certain guitar strains. Of course, that's just me, different folks are more effected by some instruments than others.

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