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I don't know as there is anything morally wrong with volume levels. Trumpets for example are pretty much always going to be fairly loud, cymbals are usually loud, yet the Lord clearly approves of them. I think it has more to do with the message each instrument is able to put out. I think the message a drum puts out is always wrong. You can feel it in the music. Yes I know that isn't something that you can quantify, but it is true.


Just curious, but does anyone here who likes drums ever feel that listening to a drum playing by itself without words or other instruments is uplifting and positive?

The reason I ask is the lost people I work with will readily admit that the drums in their music make them feel excited and on edge, but also little bit violent. Of course they like that and say so, my flesh feels the same thing, but my spirit doesn't like it one bit. It feels evil. I have never felt that with either cymbals or trumpets, both loud instruments that I can and do enjoy, assuming the music is good.

There was a time that an IFB would not allow a TV in their home.


That still happens. :Green You have to admit unless you stick to carefully selected videos, a large part of what you are going to see is going to be wrong. I am sure there are a few good things you can see, but those things are few and far between.
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Seth, John is right in one respect, no matter who you said it, it would not come off right to some. As for me, I understand where your coming from.

Even Jesus had that problem too. That problem is alive and well today.

My view, there are some thing we should resist, not because they are sin, but because where they lead and what they may stand for. But some simply will not do this, they will do it or bust.

Them some will have done it, and never saw it developed into a problem, so they think that means its completely OK.

In saying this I am not putting down no one, nor do I mean to offend anyone, but I am stating it frank and straight forward.
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Just curious, but does anyone here who likes drums ever feel that listening to a drum playing by itself without words or other instruments is uplifting and positive?


i do. If you read my post, drums are the only instruments I can truly hear and feel. In a way, they remind me of thunders sometime.
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Just curious, but does anyone here who likes drums ever feel that listening to a drum playing by itself without words or other instruments is uplifting and positive?


Seth - I almost think we are talking at cross purposes here. I do believe that you are thinking of drum sets like rock bands use. Maybe not. Maybe you are thinking of every single kind of drum there is.

A timpani is not at all like a rock and roll drum set. Neither is a snare drum. When they are used in an orchestra, there is not the inciting to violence feeling that accompanies songs that use drum sets, or even songs that may just use a snare drum to pound and pound and pound. There is a major difference. Major. I'm truly sorry you can't see that.

As to your question - no. I don't like listening to drums by themselves. Anymore than I like to listen to ANY percussion instrument by itself. None of them are melodious instruments. They are not intended to stand alone - they are intended to accompany other instruments and give body to the sound. Cymbals, which you stated that God liked (and I agree), included. Does the banging of cymbals alone uplift you? Put your mind and heart on a plane of worship preparedness or even worship? I sincerely doubt it. And, really, drum sets contain cymbals (albeit struck by the drum stick rather than another cymbal, still - a cymbal is a cymbal!), so maybe cymbals shouldn't be allowed...

As to your question about viol - one part of the definition you gave included psaltery...and that is an instrument that the Bible specifically names in a positive light. The viol was an instrument with one string. Check out this site for some pictures: http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/Pictures/L-music.htm

You quoted:

"Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands."

"Amos 6:5-7 That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of music, like David; That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. Therefore now shall they go captive with the first that go captive, and the banquet of them that stretched themselves shall be removed."

Note in Isaiah that, even if the viol was a type of drum, it is not the only instrument mentioned...others that are later listed as instruments of praise are, too. These verses don't seem to me to be condemning instruments, per se. In both of them, even reading the verses surrounding them, it seems that God is talking about Israel not being right with Him. Inventing instruments wouldn't be a sin - God included the fact that David did it...and David was a man after God's own heart. Yes, a sinner, but he pleased God with his music.

I personally feel that some of you are trying to stretch this a little too far. Yes, separation from the world is a vital. And, although most of you have never met me, I can guarantee that I am very separate. But, first and foremost is our relationship to the Lord. I think we all agree on that.


I think it's interesting that you, Seth, have unequivocally stated that God has shown you drums are wrong, so there is no other way. I respect you greatly, I really do. I believe that your heart is soft to the Lord. And I respect you, Jerry8. You have a lot of wisdom, and you have a lot of life experience to boot. And Janet, I do believe that you love the Lord with your whole heart. My hat is off to all 3 of you. If you believe firmly that drums are wrong, then good.

The problem comes in when you try to make those who don't agree with you seem to be unspiritual, or immature Christians, or even carnal Christians who are blinded to the fact that the world is invading the church. That simply isn't so.

I would agree with you that drum sets (and bongos, Janet) have no place in a church setting. But if the Lord has led the pastor of that church to have an orchestra, and that orchestra includes orchestral percussion instruments - including timbrels (tambourines...even though hippies used them!), cymbals (even though they are included on drum sets), triangles, timpani and snare drums, etc., then you are treading in dangerous territory trying to insinuate that said church and pastor are going the way of the world. Better be careful.
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Just curious, but does anyone here who likes drums ever feel that listening to a drum playing by itself without words or other instruments is uplifting and positive?

The reason I ask is the lost people I work with will readily admit that the drums in their music make them feel excited and on edge, but also little bit violent. Of course they like that and say so, my flesh feels the same thing, but my spirit doesn't like it one bit. It feels evil. I have never felt that with either cymbals or trumpets, both loud instruments that I can and do enjoy, assuming the music is good.



I don't know if I fit in the "likes drums" category, but I've heard several military pieces where the drum plays solo that I found very uplifting and positive.

Back in my teens when I listened to rock music it really wasn't the drums that would get me going but rather certain guitar strains. Of course, that's just me, different folks are more effected by some instruments than others.
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As to your question - no. I don't like listening to drums by themselves. Anymore than I like to listen to ANY percussion instrument by itself. None of them are melodious instruments. They are not intended to stand alone - they are intended to accompany other instruments and give body to the sound.


What about hand bells, chimes, etc.? Those are percussion instruments yet almost anyone will agree that they can give a wonderful Christ honoring sound when played alone( as in a set of course, not just one).

Does the banging of cymbals alone uplift you? Put your mind and heart on a plane of worship preparedness or even worship? I sincerely doubt it.


If you are talking of ONE pair of cymbals "banging" by itself, no, I don't think you could even make a song with just one pair. However, if you are speaking of a set of many cymbals, like in handbells, yes, it can be fine stand alone.

The viol was an instrument with one string. Check out this site for some pictures: http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/Pictures/L-music.htm


Interesting. Do you know of any other pic's? unforunately that one looks pretty bad and I can't tell much. Is the body made out of skin, wood, or do you know?

A timpani is not at all like a rock and roll drum set. Neither is a snare drum.


I understand that a kettle drum isn't usually a "rock" drum(still believe they are wrong) but are not snare drums in nearly every typical rock and roll drum set? What exactly are you speaking of when you speak of a rock and roll drum set? I find it interesting that you seem to agree that certain types of drums are wrong but not others if I read you correctly. Why would some be ok but not all of them? :puzzled: I would think you would view drums as either completely ok or completely wrong...
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What about hand bells, chimes, etc.? Those are percussion instruments yet almost anyone will agree that they can give a wonderful Christ honoring sound when played alone( as in a set of course, not just one).



If you are talking of ONE pair of cymbals "banging" by itself, no, I don't think you could even make a song with just one pair. However, if you are speaking of a set of many cymbals, like in handbells, yes, it can be fine stand alone.



Interesting. Do you know of any other pic's? unforunately that one looks pretty bad and I can't tell much. Is the body made out of skin, wood, or do you know?



I understand that a kettle drum isn't usually a "rock" drum(still believe they are wrong) but are not snare drums in nearly every typical rock and roll drum set? What exactly are you speaking of when you speak of a rock and roll drum set? I find it interesting that you seem to agree that certain types of drums are wrong but not others if I read you correctly. Why would some be ok but not all of them? :puzzled: I would think you would view drums as either completely ok or completely wrong...


No, Seth, I don't view then as completely wrong or completely right. When I say drum set, I am talking about the type that Ringo Starr popularized. I don't have a problem with them, per se, in the right environment, but what I am talking about is in church. A drum set has no place in a church service. But if a church has an orchestra, there is nothing wrong with orchestral percussion instruments being included in the orchestra.

Yes, bells would sound well together - but that would be with different pitches...drums, cymbals, etc., don't have different pitches in and of themselves. One bell, alone, would not sound well. Two bells together wouldn't sound very much better. But add a third or more, and sound would be better.

Question for you - if bells, as percussion, are okay, why not some drums? You're puzzled about my acceptance of some, not others. I'm puzzled that you don't see the difference, really.

Seth - do you not like John Philips Souza music? There are orchestral drums in his music, and it adds to it. The thing is - if drums dominated and created the atmosphere of which you spoke earlier, i.e. violence, etc., they would be being misused. But if they are included in an orchestra which is playing God honoring music correctly, there is nothing wrong with them.

Again, I go back to what I said earlier. Drums are instruments (duh!! :Green ) in the hands of players. It is the player that defines the rightness or wrongness of the instrument - the heart attitude decides what is played and how it is played. That is what defines whether an instrument is right or not.

I've heard trumpets played by rock musicians and I've heard trumpets played in church by people who want to glorify God. Completely different sound. And I've heard bands that used drums for rock music. I've heard drums used in bands and orchestras that are seeking to glorify God. Completely different sound because the music itself is different - because of the players.

Here is a picture of a drum set:
http://www.germes-online.com/direct/dbi ... um_Set.jpg

A church that has a set or two of these is usually heavily into CCM. A rock beat seems to be the basis for what is played on one of these types of drums. Yes, this set includes a snare, but a single snare is usually associated with march music rather than rock.

Regarding the viol - I don't know for sure what it's made of. Most likely in Bible times it was made of skin rather than wood. I'm sure that later viols were made of wood. Can you imagine how it would sound? One string? I'm sure there had to be many to make any kind of music!

Gotta go...interesting discussion.
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Question for you - if bells, as percussion, are okay, why not some drums? You're puzzled about my acceptance of some, not others. I'm puzzled that you don't see the difference, really.


I am not against percussion as a class, I am against drums as a class. We see percussion instruments used for praising God in scripture, but we don't see any kind of drum used in that way. This in spite of the fact they were very common throughout the region during most of biblical history and are to this day. I realize the fact they are not mentioned is not "proof" of anything per se, but it would be odd if they were ok considering how many other instruments are mentioned and how common they were.


Seth - do you not like John Philips Souza music?


No.
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Can you imagine how it would sound? One string? I'm sure there had to be many to make any kind of music!

Even though there would be only one string there could also be many notes capable from that one string in the same fashion that a violin can produce many notes, sharped and flatted from just four strings. The following exerpt is from Wikipedia.

As the violin has no frets to stop the strings, the player must know exactly where to place the fingers on the strings to play with good intonation. Through practice and ear training, the violinist's left hand finds the notes intuitively by muscle memory. Beginners sometimes rely on tapes placed on the fingerboard for proper left hand finger placement, but usually abandon the tapes quickly as they advance
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Even though there would be only one string there could also be many notes capable from that one string in the same fashion that a violin can produce many notes, sharped and flatted from just four strings. The following exerpt is from Wikipedia.




Yes, I know the finger placement would make different sounds. But let's face it - it's the variety of strings and finger placements that make the instrument lovely. At least when other people play...I never made much pretty music with mine! :lol:
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Do you not like John Philips Sousa music? No.
Dude, you're missing out on some of the best patriotic music written by America's best-known composer. He served as conductor of the US Marine Corps Band during the early part of last century (He wrote the Marine Corpsand then the Navy Band around WWI. Known as the "March King," his music is heavy on drumbeats to keep the military folks marching in step, but it in no way incites the flesh.

Though he didn't invent it, he commissioned the development of the marching tuba called the sousaphone, which obviously bears his name.
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Dude, you're missing out on some of the best patriotic music written by America's best-known composer. He served as conductor of the US Marine Corps Band during the early part of last century (He wrote the Marine Corpsand then the Navy Band around WWI. Known as the "March King," his music is heavy on drumbeats to keep the military folks marching in step, but it in no way incites the flesh.

Though he didn't invent it, he commissioned the development of the marching tuba called the sousaphone, which obviously bears his name.

:thumb :thumb
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Dude, you're missing out on some of the best patriotic music written by America's best-known composer. He served as conductor of the US Marine Corps Band during the early part of last century (He wrote the Marine Corpsand then the Navy Band around WWI. Known as the "March King," his music is heavy on drumbeats to keep the military folks marching in step, but it in no way incites the flesh.

Though he didn't invent it, he commissioned the development of the marching tuba called the sousaphone, which obviously bears his name.


I am familiar with him.
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And, might I repeat what you said, Chev1958..."but it in no way incites the flesh." That is the whole point. :amen:


What I think needs to be noted is that John Phillips Sousas' music DOES incite the flesh! The music DOES want to make the military folks march in step - that is what "incite" means !

From Webster's 1828 Dictionary:

incite
INCI'TE, v.t. [L. incito; in and cito, to call, to stir up.]


1. To move the mind to action by persuasion or motives presented; to stir up; to rouse; to spur on.

Antiochus, when he incited Prusias to join in war, set before him the greatness of the Romans.

2. To move to action by impulse or influence.

No blown ambition does our arms incite.

3. To animate; to encourage.
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